Immigration thread (4 Viewers)

[Zombiewoof]

In keeping with the site's desire to have more conversation based on concepts, ideas and principles, I will be posting a couple of threads in hopes of generating discussion on topics that are relevant no matter who is in office or the news cycle at any point in time.

What are your guiding principles related to immigration? What in your opinion would be the most reasonable plan to reduce illegal immigration? Should legal immigration be limited to those who can assume roles in US society that are in short supply? What steps are necessary for elected representatives to be able to find compromise on these issues?

 

[Goatman saint]

Paul, come on. You are in no position to chastise other people who speak from their personal experience. You spout your personal beliefs without ever providing any documentation.

Don’t expect others to provide proof when you are unable or unwilling to do the same.

It’s all good. I’m more than able to hold my own on this topic. I like to speak of people I know because as my father in law says. To him immigrants from Mexico and Central America are what he sees on the news. Poor, dirty, disease ridden, fence jumping coming to America to get a free ride.
However, as he realizes now through the years these people he knows as a general whatever are my coworkers, friends, neighbors, my mentor, people I mentor on and on. It’s personal to me as I have 3 very close DACA friends. Many friends who are undocumented. On and on. So yes to me it is personal. I can put names and faces on them, and sometimes it’s easier to share that way.
At the same time, I’ve seen from working in the school system how it sandbags Hispanics. How it turns them to careers far below their talent level. Articles that point out differences in interest rates based on race alone. Ability to get credit and how its
More difficult with a Hispanic last name. How many kids don’t go to college, or drop out due to family pressures of not wanting their kids to leave the family. (Common in Native American communities also)
Like I said we can turn this into a research project if wanted, I just don’t care enough to do that on my phone.

 

[Paul]

This is the second time today you have personally insulted me. Why?

Saying you have your own bias is not an insult. If that is an insult you better explain that one.

 

[MT15]

You said

I simply make observations. I see things you cannot see because you have your very own biases. You cannot accept anything different.

Basically you called me intolerant. That is the meaning of “cannot accept anything different”. You said you see things I cannot see, thus putting yourself in a superior position to me. These things are insulting, or at the very least condescending.

Are you doing it consciously?

 

[Paul]

You said


Basically you called me intolerant. That is the meaning of “cannot accept anything different”. You said you see things I cannot see, thus putting yourself in a superior position to me. These things are insulting, or at the very least condescending.

Are you doing it consciously?

OK, now I see it.
It was my bad to sound condescending. I am sorry.

However, in an argument one must acknowledge that certain things said by the other party may cause some distress if they are radically different. That is the price we must pay while having a conversation with a person that has a different viewpoint. If I am forced to walk on eggshells while having a conversation then the conversation is not real.

 

[RobF]

However, in an argument one must acknowledge that certain things said by the other party may cause some distress if they are radically different. That is the price we must pay while having a conversation with a person that has a different viewpoint. If I am forced to walk on eggshells while having a conversation then the conversation is not real.

No.

You were being criticised for the hypocrisy inherent in criticising others for using anecdotes to support their posts, when you typically use nothing at all to support yours. You were not being criticised for "having a different view" or saying something "radically different".

In an open conversation, people must be free to address such hypocrisy. If you are free to express your supposedly 'radically different' views, then others must be free to respond. You are free to speak without caution or consideration, if you so wish, but in a real conversation, you cannot be free to speak without consequence.

 

[Paul]

No.

You were being criticised for the hypocrisy inherent in criticising others for using anecdotes to support their posts, when you typically use nothing at all to support yours. You were not being criticised for "having a different view" or saying something "radically different".

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

In an open conversation, people must be free to address such hypocrisy. If you are free to express your supposedly 'radically different' views, then others must be free to respond. You are free to speak without caution or consideration, if you so wish, but in a real conversation, you cannot be free to speak without consequence.

If there is something i said that you can refute please go ahead.
What do you mean by consequence?

 

[Paul]

It’s all good. I’m more than able to hold my own on this topic. I like to speak of people I know because as my father in law says. To him immigrants from Mexico and Central America are what he sees on the news. Poor, dirty, disease ridden, fence jumping coming to America to get a free ride.
However, as he realizes now through the years these people he knows as a general whatever are my coworkers, friends, neighbors, my mentor, people I mentor on and on. It’s personal to me as I have 3 very close DACA friends. Many friends who are undocumented. On and on. So yes to me it is personal. I can put names and faces on them, and sometimes it’s easier to share that way.
At the same time, I’ve seen from working in the school system how it sandbags Hispanics. How it turns them to careers far below their talent level. Articles that point out differences in interest rates based on race alone. Ability to get credit and how its
More difficult with a Hispanic last name. How many kids don’t go to college, or drop out due to family pressures of not wanting their kids to leave the family. (Common in Native American communities also)
Like I said we can turn this into a research project if wanted, I just don’t care enough to do that on my phone.

That is fine, but refuting an argument with an anecdote is not a solid argument.
As for Hispanics. I am from Latin America and I agree. There are some barriers that people that were born here do not have. I fully expected that. However, IMO, the USA is a very welcoming nation.

 

[Goatman saint]

That is fine, but refuting an argument with an anecdote is not a solid argument.
As for Hispanics. I am from Latin America and I agree. There are some barriers that people that were born here do not have. I fully expected that. However, IMO, the USA is a very welcoming nation.

So your personal statement is to make you an expert, yet my way is not a solid argument?

Ok here goes.

Struggles of Hispanics increasing rates of college attendance (bear in mind this is California which does far more than most states. If you would like me to back that statement up I will be more than happy to do so also)

High school graduation rates for one important group are starting to get better

There’s been a big increase in Hispanic students in California graduating from high school, part of an effort to get more of them to go college.

hechingerreport.org

Graduation rates by high school

https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/52001/900794-Who-Graduates-in-California-.PDF

Higher interest rates charged to races

Disparity in home lending costs minorities millions, researchers find

Researchers found that blacks and Latinos face higher mortgage costs — and tech is no panacea

www.cbsnews.com

Those are just some low lying fruit I chose. What is critically important to remember is that when the terms ELL and Hispanic are used there is no difference in the community. An ELL in San Francisco from Asia is the same in that data as a Guatemalan refugee in the Central Valley. They cannot be lumped in or compared in opportunity or outcomes, yet the data does. Also, Hispanic is an extremely broad term as it includes for example the Guatemalan refugees, and Mexican immigrants on one end, all the way up to doctorate level educated professionals. So data can be and is manipulated to look any way you want.
The community involved is vitally important to know.
However, if you look at the other part of that data in a positive light, your poorly educated people from Mexico and Central America are making progress. Graduation rates have gone from 62% to 83% in the last 15 years. College graduations for EL students is at about 40% for those who go into community college as a first step or are accepted into a 4 year university. The 3 largest barriers are 1) Financial Aid applying and understanding, 2) failure at advisor level to map and encourage plans so all the boxes are checked and don’t get hung up with unfamiliarity in the system, 3) lack of a transfer information and communication. All system failures which can be corrected. Back to my previous comment about sandbagging students. https://www.matsol.org/assets/Commu...lege-Con-2017/MATSOL CC Presentation 2017.pdf

To summarize, sure it’s great to get your college educated from other countries. But, sometimes you have to work with what you are dealt with. I for one have no issues with poorer less well off people because those who work hard and have drive will ultimately end up successful.

 

[Paul]

So your personal statement is to make you an expert, yet my way is not a solid argument?

Ok here goes.

Struggles of Hispanics increasing rates of college attendance (bear in mind this is California which does far more than most states. If you would like me to back that statement up I will be more than happy to do so also)

High school graduation rates for one important group are starting to get better

There’s been a big increase in Hispanic students in California graduating from high school, part of an effort to get more of them to go college.

hechingerreport.org

Graduation rates by high school

https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/52001/900794-Who-Graduates-in-California-.PDF

Higher interest rates charged to races

Disparity in home lending costs minorities millions, researchers find

Researchers found that blacks and Latinos face higher mortgage costs — and tech is no panacea

www.cbsnews.com

Those are just some low lying fruit I chose. What is critically important to remember is that when the terms ELL and Hispanic are used there is no difference in the community. An ELL in San Francisco from Asia is the same in that data as a Guatemalan refugee in the Central Valley. They cannot be lumped in or compared in opportunity or outcomes, yet the data does. Also, Hispanic is an extremely broad term as it includes for example the Guatemalan refugees, and Mexican immigrants on one end, all the way up to doctorate level educated professionals. So data can be and is manipulated to look any way you want.
The community involved is vitally important to know.
However, if you look at the other part of that data in a positive light, your poorly educated people from Mexico and Central America are making progress. Graduation rates have gone from 62% to 83% in the last 15 years. College graduations for EL students is at about 40% for those who go into community college as a first step or are accepted into a 4 year university. The 3 largest barriers are 1) Financial Aid applying and understanding, 2) failure at advisor level to map and encourage plans so all the boxes are checked and don’t get hung up with unfamiliarity in the system, 3) lack of a transfer information and communication. All system failures which can be corrected. Back to my previous comment about sandbagging students. https://www.matsol.org/assets/Community-College-ESL/Com-College-Con-2017/MATSOL CC Presentation 2017.pdf

To summarize, sure it’s great to get your college educated from other countries. But, sometimes you have to work with what you are dealt with. I for one have no issues with poorer less well off people because those who work hard and have drive will ultimately end up successful.

I have no disagreements with your post.

When it comes form Latin America the overwhelming fraction of immigrants are poor and uneducated. I am glad they are progressing!! They are not like the first wave of Cubans in the 1960. Latin Americans that are doing well in their native countries do not immigrate in large numbers. However, last time I was in Miami beach I met several hotel maids from Venezuela that had college degrees. They reminded me of the 1st wave of Cuban refugees.

 

[samiam5211]

I have no disagreements with your post.

When it comes form Latin America the overwhelming fraction of immigrants are poor and uneducated. I am glad they are progressing!! They are not like the first wave of Cubans in the 1960. Latin Americans that are doing well in their native countries do not immigrate in large numbers. However, last time I was in Miami beach I met several hotel maids from Venezuela that had college degrees. They reminded me of the 1st wave of Cuban refugees.

You sure seem attached to being a "Latin American" for someone who preaches the virtues of assimilation.

 

[Goatman saint]

Also the only Latin that doesn’t say where he is from. Most that I know are very proud of the area they are from

 

[Paul]

You sure seem attached to being a "Latin American" for someone who preaches the virtues of assimilation.

I believe in assimilation. However, my formation will always be related to Hispanic culture. By the way we never used the term Hispanic when I was growing up. That term was reserved for Spain (The Hispanic peninsula). The Romans baptized the peninsula as Hispania.

Hispanic is a term created for the classification and categorization of people. Then many Hispanics checked themselves as white in application forms and they came up with the terms of Hispanic and non-Hispanic white which is basically racism.

 

[Paul]

Also the only Latin that doesn’t say where he is from. Most that I know are very proud of the area they are from

Last time I revealed that I was attacked. Many posters will look for any angle to be acrimonious or insulting.

 

[samiam5211]

I believe in assimilation. However, my formation will always be related to Hispanic culture. By the way we never used the term Hispanic when I was growing up. That term was reserved for Spain (The Hispanic peninsula). The Romans baptized the peninsula as Hispania.

Hispanic is a term created for the classification and categorization of people. Then many Hispanics checked themselves as white in application forms and they came up with the terms of Hispanic and non-Hispanic white which is basically racism.

Not sure what the exposition on the word Hispanic was about.

You've said you were Latin American in the past few weeks more than the known Latin Americans on the board have said since the this forum was founded.

 

[Goatman saint]

Because Hispanic is now a term looked down on. Originally used as a term of connection to the Spanish settled america, first used on the census in the 70s I believe. But, some felt offended because they weren’t of Spanish decent. So it has morphed now into Latinx, which in essence is another garbage term that lumps every culture and politics group under 1 umbrella.
As far as the racist angle, I can’t get behind that as everyone is classified some way, and it was never originally meant as such. Now if some have made it that way, then that’s a different topic. But any word can be used as an insult or to disparage people.
By the time you look at racial background-native, whichever European country, black, Pacific Islander, then sort that by country, then by how a person sees themself dang you’d have categories of 1 person.

 

[Paul]

Because Hispanic is now a term looked down on. Originally used as a term of connection to the Spanish settled america, first used on the census in the 70s I believe. But, some felt offended because they weren’t of Spanish decent. So it has morphed now into Latinx, which in essence is another garbage term that lumps every culture and politics group under 1 umbrella.
As far as the racist angle, I can’t get behind that as everyone is classified some way, and it was never originally meant as such. Now if some have made it that way, then that’s a different topic. But any word can be used as an insult or to disparage people.
By the time you look at racial background-native, whichever European country, black, Pacific Islander, then sort that by country, then by how a person sees themself dang you’d have categories of 1 person.

I find the categorization and classification of people according to skin color or ethnicity an abomination. It is the very essence of racism. Non-Hispanic white and Hispanic white is just more racism. A subtle way for the people of Norther European heritage to say "we are really white, whereas white of Spanish descent is high yellow white". When I came to America I used to get the "you look white" comment. It is nothing but the obsession of America to racially classify people. I much prefer the way the French deal with this. In France everybody is French, end of story.

 

[Goatman saint]

I find the categorization and classification of people according to skin color or ethnicity an abomination. It is the very essence of racism. Non-Hispanic white and Hispanic white is just more racism. A subtle way for the people of Norther European heritage to say "we are really white, whereas white of Spanish descent is high yellow white". When I came to America I used to get the "you look white" comment. It is nothing but the obsession of America to racially classify people. I much prefer the way the French deal with this. In France everybody is French, end of story.

Hahahaha. shirt now you owe me a keyboard. That’s the funniest frigging thing I’ve heard in a long time

 

[SystemShock]

I much prefer the way the French deal with this. In France everybody is French, end of story.

Are you still on that French bandwagon? I already debunked the "in France everyone is French" spiel...

BTW French legal docs may not ask about origin, but they ask about skin color and religion. Asking for skin color is very standard everywhere in Latin America, but you knew that, right?