All things Racist...USA edition (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

I was looking for a place to put this so we could discuss but didn't really find a place that worked so I created this thread so we can all place articles, experiences, videos and examples of racism in the USA.

This is one that happened this week. The lady even called and filed a complaint on the officer. This officer also chose to wear the body cam (apparently, LA doesn't require this yet). This exchange wasn't necessarily racist IMO until she started with the "mexican racist...you will never be white, like you want" garbage. That is when it turned racist IMO

All the murderer and other insults, I think are just a by product of CRT and ACAB rhetoric that is very common on the radical left and sadly is being brought to mainstream in this country.

Another point that I think is worth mentioning is she is a teacher and the sense of entitlement she feels is mind blowing.

https://news.yahoo.com/black-teacher-berates-latino-la-221235341.html

 

[V Chip]

Let's just discuss the issues.

I'm trying. This is an issue, and a question about the issue *you* brought up (reparations for descendants of slaves). Why don't you want to discuss the actual implications of that?

Do you think systemic racism stopped with the Emancipation Proclamation or the fourteenth amendment?

 

[Paul]

When you start doing so, I'll continue to discuss the issues. How about that?

You are just trying to deflect so you can avoid a discussion. I am sorry if you felt i was condescending to you.

 

[V Chip]

You are just trying to deflect so you can avoid a discussion. I am sorry if you felt i was condescending to you.

I'm not deflecting, I'm trying to have a discussion about the issues you have actually brought up.

When you're ready to have one, let's discuss those issues. There's a lot of substantive things I have brought up and asked to foster discussion. It's up to you to reply to those posts... or not.

 

[Paul]

I'm trying. This is an issue, and a question about the issue *you* brought up (reparations for descendants of slaves). Why don't you want to discuss the actual implications of that?

The descendants of slaves got and still receive a raw deal. I am in favor of more reparations, but this time they should only be targeted at descendants of slaves. Other groups and women do not need to apply. The reparations should target those at the bottom of the socioeconomic scale. The aid should be robust and managed to have success.

Do you think systemic racism stopped with the Emancipation Proclamation or the fourteenth amendment?

Systemic racism is difficult to define unless you are into CRT. IN that case the entire USA is permeated with racism. In other words even the air we breath is racist. Any outcome that is not equal to whites has to be due to systemic racism. I am not in love with the term because it is rather abstract.

However, some problems could be classified as systemic. For example American cops are poorly trained and they shoot too many people (including non blacks). If you want to call that systemic I am OK with that.

The system used to be way more racist in the past with school segregation, red lining, etc. The system is less racist today. Could you enumerate which systems of American government remain racist.

 

[Paul]

When you start doing so, I'll continue to discuss the issues. How about that?

Great! Fire away!

 

[Paul]

FTP did in no way want to hear the word "N*gger" Dear god do you even think before you post? Nevermind, strike that it's obvious you do not.

I said nothing about the N word.

No it doesn't. FFS.

But it *is* true that without us White Americans changing, racism will never go away. That's fact. The people in power and who have benefitted from systemic racism have to be the ones to willingly give up that white privilege and dismantle the systemic racism in order for it to go away. Black people have been pointing out these things for over 100 years and fighting for their civil rights and still today we're not in the promised land. Acting as if asking white people to see what it truly out there is condescending is laughable -- unless you are convinced there is no such thing as racism or systemic racism/prejudice in 2021.

I cannot overstate this anymore. This is the first time in world history that one ethnic group is putting the hope of success on the whims of another group. The liberation has to come from within and not provided by another group. The goals are simply too broad to be completed . How do you ask people to dismantled their country? That is unrealistic. How about the agency of black America to succeed?

Racism will never go away. That is an unrealistic goal.

So the idea that black people are not lazy or violent is far from reality? You won't answer my questions directly, but you do it all the time indirectly.

Black people work as hard as anyone I know. However, they are not working in an efficient manner.
Mexicans work an average of 2137 hours a year whereas Germans work 1368 hours. Germans have a better standard of living.

 

[V Chip]

The descendants of slaves got and still receive a raw deal. I am in favor of more reparations, but this time they should only be targeted at descendants of slaves. Other groups and women do not need to apply. The reparations should target those at the bottom of the socioeconomic scale. The aid should be robust and managed to have success.

Why just those people?

Systemic racism is difficult to define unless you are into CRT. IN that case the entire USA is permeated with racism. In other words even the air we breath is racist. Any outcome that is not equal to whites has to be due to systemic racism. I am not in love with the term because it is rather abstract.

No it isn't. Talk about deflection... CRT has nothing to do with understanding systemic racism. And calling the air we breathe racist? This whole section is not a serious discussion, that's partisan hackery designed to derail discussion.

However, some problems could be classified as systemic. For example American cops are poorly trained and they shoot too many people (including non blacks).

The system used to be way more racist in the past with school segregation, red lining, etc. The system is less racist today. Could you enumerate which systems of American government remain racist.

Is policing then systemically racist, or systemically violent? You say it could be classified as systemic but then talk about training and shooting too many people without calling it systemically racist/prejudiced.

Saying the system is less racist today is inherently admitting it is still a bit racist today. Do you think things like school segregation and redlining "etc" were systemically racist? I am assuming so but I'd rather not assume and have your opinion stated explicitly. If it was, do you think blacks were harmed significantly by these systems? If not, do you think the systems didn't harm blacks enough to count? Redlining continued into the 1970s and was still in action enough to have the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act passed to track lenders' compliance with the 1968 Fair Housing Act. People are still alive today who were negatively affected by these practices.

Today, policing, the justice system (in targeting those arrested, charges brought, convictions, and sentencing), housing, schooling -- particularly district funding, income disparity, representation in management/high salary positions, financing, voting rights (including voter suppression as well as not reinstating voting rights from those who have served their sentences in full)... that's just a quick top-of-my-head list.

 

[Paul]

Why just those people?

Immigrants that recently came to America were not enslaved. White women were not enslaved. Including a lot of other people would dilute the effort.

No it isn't. Talk about deflection... CRT has nothing to do with understanding systemic racism. And calling the air we breathe racist?

That was a figure of speech. It is important to act in good faith in a discussion. I believe you knew it was a figure of speech.

Is policing then systemically racist, or systemically violent? You say it could be classified as systemic but then talk about training and shooting too many people without calling it systemically racist/prejudiced

Poor police training is a systemic problem.

Saying the system is less racist today is inherently admitting it is still a bit racist today.

I have experienced racism. I know it is racist.

Do you think things like school segregation and redlining "etc" were systemically racist?

That is what I said.

I am assuming so but I'd rather not assume and have your opinion stated explicitly. If it was, do you think blacks were harmed significantly by these systems?

Yes, blacks were damaged and hence I am in favor of additional much better targeted reparations.

If not, do you think the systems didn't harm blacks enough to count? Redlining continued into the 1970s and was still in action enough to have the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act passed to track lenders' compliance with the 1968 Fair Housing Act. People are still alive today who were negatively affected by these practices.

That needs to be adreessed.

Today, policing, the justice system (in targeting those arrested, charges brought, convictions, and sentencing),

I agree. But, it would help to commit less crime.

housing, schooling -- particularly district funding, income disparity, representation in management/high salary positions, financing,

What do you mean by housing? Be specific
What do you mean by schooling?
Income disparity is the norm between groups and individuals. All my neighbors earn different sums of money, Can you be more specific.

Where you want representation in management? How can this be accomplished?

voting rights (including voter suppression as well as not reinstating voting rights from those who have served their sentences in full)... that's just a quick top-of-my-head list.

No issues.

I will say you posted a litany of well known issues. Most are valid, but others are a phony panacea. There is no equality and hence shooting for that is a recipe for frustration. We need to shoot for more progress and not always measure ourselves by white people.

 

[V Chip]

I cannot overstate this anymore. This is the first time in world history that one ethnic group is putting the hope of success on the whims of another group.

No it isn't. The idea that it is the first time a minority group (ethic or not) have had to convince the majority group that they deserve the same rights and same playing field as the majority group is laughable. Native Americans alone have been fighting this battle for centuries; it has happened in other countries for ethnic/religious/gender issues many, many, many times. Most of the countries that were part of the British Empire had to undergo these same issues even though in most cases the ethnic groups were the majority. The Middle East is littered with such conflicts between ethnic groups and are still going on today.

The liberation has to come from within and not provided by another group. The goals are simply too broad to be completed . How do you ask people to dismantled their country? That is unrealistic. How about the agency of black America to succeed?

Black America has been trying to succeed for centuries. Guess which group has been denying their success for even longer? HINT: It's not the Native Americans.

And dismantle their country? What the heck kind of nonsense is this? Asking them to simply look inward as to how white America continues to have privilege over black America is "dismantling their country?" What an extreme exaggeration... if you honestly believe that...

Racism will never go away. That is an unrealistic goal.

It's far more realistic than doing nothing, or not having a goal of minimizing racism to almost eradicate it.

Black people work as hard as anyone I know. However, they are not working in an efficient manner.
Mexicans work an average of 2137 hours a year whereas Germans work 1368 hours. Germans have a better standard of living.

Black people don't work efficiently? LOL I wanna hear how you explain that.

Isn't it weird how Germany has a far more social democratic government than we do? They have much more robust social programs, education programs, strong labor unions, liberal leave and vacation and workers rights. Their minimum wage is about 50% higher than the US. Their gini index (measure of income and wealth inequality) is far better than the US. So sure, let's be more like Germany.

 

[V Chip]

Immigrants that recently came to America were not enslaved. White women were not enslaved. Including a lot of other people would dilute the effort.

So the only hindrance black Americans have gone through was enslavement, and those blacks not enslaved didn't encounter many economic hindrances to getting ahead? (I'm ignoring the "immigrants and women" point as that's just a diversion from the issue.)

That was a figure of speech. It is important to act in good faith in a discussion. I believe you knew it was a figure of speech.

Nope, I didn't. If you're just throwing in exaggerations and "figures of speech" that aren't germaine to the discussion, why include them at all?

Poor police training is a systemic problem.

Is the systemic problem racist? Is it violent? Both? Neither?

Yes, blacks were damaged and hence I am in favor of additional much better targeted reparations.

That needs to be adreessed.

But not by reparations... so the only important issue that kept blacks from building wealth and opportunity is slavery? That's complete hogwash IMO.

I agree. But, it would help to commit less crime.

So blacks are committing the crimes, so they're the ones at fault for a system that arrests, convicts, and gives harsher sentences for the same crimes that white commit?

Again, do you believe that black people are more violent or more prone to violence than similar white people?

What do you mean by housing? Be specific
What do you mean by schooling?
Income disparity is the norm between groups and individuals. All my neighbors earn different sums of money, Can you be more specific.

Let's address the issues we already have been discussing before going down the list of things that are systemically prejudiced against blacks, OK?

I will say you posted a litany of well known issues. Most are valid, but others are a phony panacea. There is no equality and hence shooting for that is a recipe for frustration. We need to shoot for more progress and not always measure ourselves by white people.

LOL. Right. We shouldn't compare outcomes because then people might see how one group gets the benefit of the doubt and the benefit of the opportunities at the expense of others. That's rich.

Feel free to say which of my items are phony. I'd love to hear that.

 

[Paul]

So the only hindrance black Americans have gone through was enslavement, and those blacks not enslaved didn't encounter many economic hindrances to getting ahead? (I'm ignoring the "immigrants and women" point as that's just a diversion from the issue.)

I did not say that. The descendants of slaves suffer additional atrocities. The reparations must be targeted to be efficient. Otherwise, everyone will want to qualify. Do you think I need reparations? I could easily say that the USA has meddled in Latin America and created poverty. Mexicans could demand for the return of the entire south west, that would be almost half of the USA. The American Indians may have demands that far out weight the demands of black Americans. Where do we draw the line?

Nope, I didn't. If you're just throwing in exaggerations and "figures of speech" that aren't germaine to the discussion, why include them at all?

You mentioned systemic racism. That means that the system is racist. Could you list which components of the system are practicing racism today in 2021?

But not by reparations... so the only important issue that kept blacks from building wealth and opportunity is slavery? That's complete hogwash IMO.

I did not say that. Blacks are behind because of racism and a multitude of additional factors. Assuming the problem is due to one variable (racism) is incorrect.

So blacks are committing the crimes, so they're the ones at fault for a system that arrests, convicts, and gives harsher sentences for the same crimes that white commit?

On a per capita basis blacks commit more crime. This is probably a function of poverty and despair that can be traced back to slavery. I am as much against racism as you are, but I will not ignore issues that are a negative. These are things that are easily fixed.

Again, do you believe that black people are more violent or more prone to violence than similar white people?

I judge people as individuals and not as members of a group.

Let's address the issues we already have been discussing before going down the list of things that are systemically prejudiced against blacks, OK?

LOL. Right. We shouldn't compare outcomes because then people might see how one group gets the benefit of the doubt and the benefit of the opportunities at the expense of others. That's rich.

I see your philosophical point and I sympathize with that. However, setting that goal is unrealistic. I earn much more than many whites. However, there are other whites, Hispanics, Asians, and blacks that earn more than I do. The people that live on my street do not earn the same. That we do not earn the same does not mean that some of us are victims of racism. BTW, the level of success is also variable among siblings that grew up in the same household. There is no such thing as equality.

Feel free to say which of my items are phony. I'd love to hear that.

I said phony panacea. In other words there will never be the universal perfect solution you demand for ALL the problems you listed. I did not say your demands were phony.

 

[Paul]

No it isn't. The idea that it is the first time a minority group (ethic or not) have had to convince the majority group that they deserve the same rights and same playing field as the majority group is laughable. Native Americans alone have been fighting this battle for centuries; it has happened in other countries for ethnic/religious/gender issues many, many, many times. Most of the countries that were part of the British Empire had to undergo these same issues even though in most cases the ethnic groups were the majority. The Middle East is littered with such conflicts between ethnic groups and are still going on today.

That is not the same as asking for the other group to solve the atrocities of the past. Most people will not willingly give up what they have. Fighting for rights is OK. BTW, name which are the rights that whites have that are not allowed to other groups.

Black America has been trying to succeed for centuries. Guess which group has been denying their success for even longer? HINT: It's not the Native Americans.

I do not disagree with the above. What is the prescription to cure that?

And dismantle their country? What the heck kind of nonsense is this? Asking them to simply look inward as to how white America continues to have privilege over black America is "dismantling their country?" What an extreme exaggeration... if you honestly believe that...

OK, assume white Americans gets down on the r knees and say they are sorry. What is next?

It's far more realistic than doing nothing, or not having a goal of minimizing racism to almost eradicate it.

Racism can easily be eradicated by treating all people as individuals and by setting aside the current tribalism.

Black people don't work efficiently? LOL I wanna hear how you explain that.

Isn't it weird how Germany has a far more social democratic government than we do? They have much more robust social programs, education programs, strong labor unions, liberal leave and vacation and workers rights. Their minimum wage is about 50% higher than the US. Their gini index (measure of income and wealth inequality) is far better than the US. So sure, let's be more like Germany.

The average German works much less than the average Mexican. They are more efficient.
I agree Germans are doing it right.

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

I thought we already had a thread on that?

Found a couple on the first page.

https://madaboutpolitics.com/threads/qanon.79567/

https://madaboutpolitics.com/thread...ress-and-now-what.108053/page-176#post-233921

But I guess the porn part is dependent on what tribe you belong, no?

Yes, because getting triggered over the removal of statues or the alleged 'indoctrination' of kids in public schools (spoilers: if you want to see what indoctrination really looks like, check out your local evangelical church) is totally the same as having a visceral reaction to the Capitol being ransacked and Trump inciting a mob to disrupt the counting of electoral ballots.

Your problem is you have no center of objectivity and still pretend like January 6th was no big deal. No rational person would normalize Q-anon. No rational person would normalize the events of January 6th. An authoritarian, however, would.

 

[RobF]

And dismantle their country? What the heck kind of nonsense is this? Asking them to simply look inward as to how white America continues to have privilege over black America is "dismantling their country?" What an extreme exaggeration... if you honestly believe that...

It's another white supremacist line. Where in reality ending racism would improve the country for all (including white people), they try to associate white supremacy with the country, thus equating ending white supremacy with ending - or dismantling - the country, argue that can't/shouldn't be done, ergo, white supremacy is just the way it is.

 

[First Time Poster]

Thank you FTP for your honesty, and for holding up the mirror so to speak. I'm white, I apologize for my ancestors who created the n----. You and all of black Americans are not n----, and neither were your ancestors. I apologize that you carry a burden you didn't create. It should be my burden. And I'm willing to carry it. I don't know how, but I know I want to.

The onus isn't on you to change, it's on us, white Americans. It's well past time we acknowledge the harm done. I know I'm not the only white American who wants to make amends. There needs to be a whole hell of a lot more of us willing to acknowledge our role in causing pain for black Americans.

I don't think black Americans are criminals or lazy, certainly not any more than white Americans. I don't think we're all that different when afforded a level playing field.

I don't know how to fix the mistakes we've made, but I'm willing to try.

@DaveXA My friend, my brother...
Gimme me a sec, I need to handle some light work real quick.

I admire your intentions, but if I was black I would feel condescended. As someone that came from Latin America I would not want an Anglo Saxon to speak to me in that manner. You are perfectly ok to feel that way and your intentions are honorable, but there are words you should keep to yourself. Treat everybody with respect and dignity and always be kind to your fellow men. However, do not advertise how you think and why you do it. You unknowingly place yourself in a position of superiority. I know quite well is not intentional.

This forking guy!
NVM, not worth my time LOL!

Watch this video by a man that has been black since birth.

So I, too, have been black my entire life (seriously, w..t..f). I mean, I think so. I'll have to fact check that. My mother was a Mouton and we all know they run super light. Like pass for white, probably are mixed, super light. So, you know, I could be like 75% qualified to opine.

@DaveXA

“Everything now, we must assume, is in our hands; we have no right to assume otherwise. If we – and now I mean the relatively conscious whites and the relatively conscious blacks, who must, like lovers, insist on, or create, the consciousness of the others – do not falter in our duty now, we may be able, handful that we are, to end the racial nightmare, and achieve our country, and change the history of the world. If we do not now dare everything, the fulfilment of that prophecy, re-created from the Bible in song by a slave, is upon us: God gave Noah the rainbow sign, No more water, the fire next time!”

Dr. Cornell West said in an interview:

"I'm highly suspicious of the discourses of hope. I think that that is too abstract. The question is not having hope. The question is being a hope. Having hope is still too detached, too spectotorial. You got to be a participant. You got to be an agent."

For far too long, what Baldwin called "the relatively conscience whites" have been too willing to be more spectator in this fight than participant. On a micro level. On a macro level, sacrifices have been given and gains have been made, most certainly. Our progressive society is evident of that. But, on a community level, an individual level, before George Floyd, how many times would persons witness overt and subtle forms of racism and just go about their day?

That has to change. Baldwin said it's our duty, black and white, to confront the conscience of those different from us...and he didn't say be polite about, did he? He said we must INSIST on, or create, the change needed to end the racial nightmare. Meaning what? If we see an adult accosting a child, bordering on abuse (physical or sexual), without hesitation we get involved. Because that is a crime we can't afford to be right about and just walk away. It is such a heinous act that we are willing to be wrong about the situation, and humbly take an L, because the alternative is intolerable for us.

We have to start seeing racism through the same lens. Intolerable. And, like Dr. West said, not just hope it ends, but become agents of hope, willing participants, in the fight against this heinous act against our fellow Americans. You see, contrary to Paul's opinion, AA's aren't waiting around on a white savior. @Saint by the Bay said something very profound:

The thing is, all this is happening. When we get in these discussions we tend to act like it's not. Society is doing a lot to try and correct the situation (the debate is really how much they should be doing) and the culture has been on a steady pace of improvement over the last 5 decades on poverty and education and the last 2 decades on crime and violence.

We've already been doing the work! For decades now, despite the roadblocks, despite the setbacks, despite the discrimination and in the face of bias we have been being the hope we want to see. With no equality. So, what they are preaching we should "just do," we actually have been doing. The question is why haven't they noticed? Do they even want to see? Will this evidence ever really change their minds? As Baldwin famously said, "how much time do you want for your progress?"



But, men like you Dave. Men and women like you. We will make them. We will insist they see.

 

[RebSaint]

Just to add some random thoughts here. My understanding of the plight of black Americans has come mainly reading and studying southern history for 20+ years; I've known very few AA throughout my lifetime, so I wouldn't be as presumptuous as to completely understand their experiences--as such, I appreciate the perspectives of AA posters here and on the other boards. I've read biographies of King, WEB DuBois, and Monroe Trotter (google him--really interesting early activist) but it's something completely else to read about someone's contemporary experiences.

My university has hired (the first of such position) a director of inclusion and diversity; I popped in to (re) introduce myself because she was a former student. I lent her some books which I thought would help her frame her position within the history of the AA experience. I also warned her of all the pushback arguments, re: anti-racism and CRT. I also warned her that despite a lot of progress, I think this country is going the wrong way because of the surge/rise of white nationalism and extremism.

Needless to say, I'll be keeping up with her initiatives rather closely.

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

How do you know how you would feel if you were black?

Imagine if he were black and someone denied his mortgage, and he wasn't able to pretend he was white so that it would be approved..

 

[Paul]

Imagine if he were black and someone denied his mortgage, and he wasn't able to pretend he was white so that it would be approved..

My very first mortgage application was a disaster. The company secretary put mu application in the back burner because I had a Spanish surname. That was in the south in the early 1980s. They never looked at it and failed to realized I was overqualified for the loan. As the settlement day approached by realtor was in shock as to why the mortgage company was silent. Bigotry is real and sometimes the offenders are low level secretaries. At the same time Asian and Indian students graduating form American Medical schools were treated as foreign graduates because of the last name. Their applications for training slots were put at the bottom of the pile.

I ended up changing the surname of my son to an Anglo Saxon last name.