All things Racist...USA edition (3 Viewers)

[Farb]

I was looking for a place to put this so we could discuss but didn't really find a place that worked so I created this thread so we can all place articles, experiences, videos and examples of racism in the USA.

This is one that happened this week. The lady even called and filed a complaint on the officer. This officer also chose to wear the body cam (apparently, LA doesn't require this yet). This exchange wasn't necessarily racist IMO until she started with the "mexican racist...you will never be white, like you want" garbage. That is when it turned racist IMO

All the murderer and other insults, I think are just a by product of CRT and ACAB rhetoric that is very common on the radical left and sadly is being brought to mainstream in this country.

Another point that I think is worth mentioning is she is a teacher and the sense of entitlement she feels is mind blowing.

https://news.yahoo.com/black-teacher-berates-latino-la-221235341.html

 

[Paul]

He's not a white supremacist (how can he be, he's a Latin American)

That is a racist statement.

, he just thinks that some races do better than others.

There is only a single human race.
On the average some groups do better than others in some endeavors. However, at the individual level anyone can be as good or better than anyone else.

 

[Saintamaniac]

That is a racist statement.

No. It's not racist a racist statement. If you are to be believed, it is, in fact, a statement of fact.

I find your accusation of racism where there clearly is none, racist.

 

[V Chip]

there must be a conscious effort not to stereotype.

You say that as if it’s a bad thing.

 

[Paul]

You say that as if it’s a bad thing.

According to Robert Sapolsky we humans analyze strangers within a fraction of a second. Stereotyping is not far behind that initial analysis. With the aid of the frontal lobe we can learn to judge people as individuals and not as members of a group. In fact, this is the solution to end racism.

 

[DaveXA]

"Your invention reveals you."

You aren't stating it plainly as Paul but there seems to be this belief that the "fatherless black community" and the stigmatism of being violent is our own creation and thus our issue to fix. It is not.

America, no let's speak facts here, White America created the n****r. The enslaved persons brought here weren't n****rs. The first generation Black Americans weren't n****rs. My grandfathers, American soldiers, who fought for freedom but came home to inequality weren't n****rs. I'm not a n****r.

And as Baldwin stated in another interview he gave, "White America created the n****r so White America needs to figure out why a n****r was necessary to have in the first place." From birth, I have to carry this centuries old stigmata of being Black, have to endure the bias built against me in institutions that neither myself or my ancestors created and, yet, the onus is on me to change how I am perceived?! Hell no. Your perception of me was sinful and flawed from its inception. That's not my burden. It is yours.

And, yes, when I say yours I mean present day society. YOU are accountable. Because you reap the benefits of what was sown centuries ago. If a rapist deposited 1 million dollars into your family's account in 1600 and, today, you still use all of the benefits that money reaped, you are accountable. I know because I cash a similar check as a man. I had nothing to do with making institutions and a society that is misogynistic and biased against women. But, as a man, I benefit from it. It isn't women's responsibility to change how we perceive and treat them with inequality. That's ours, as men.

And we need to stop talking about fault. Remove fault. I'm not faulting you for having the advantage or using it. I'm simply revealing to you how it is. "Once you become aware, you become responsible." I'm aware of the imbalance of genders in our society and the onus is on me, the gender that benefits from the inequality, to make it fair. Not on women to prove they shouldn't be treated unfairly. We never should have treated them that way in the first place! You insist that families need to be fixed first, yet, I just showed you a study, done with extensive research, that shows that even when black men are raised in two parent homes, well educated, nice neighborhoods and with money, they still are statistically more likely to be poor than rich and in 99% of the cases they carry over significantly less wealth than their white peers raised under the exact same circumstances! Are yall okay with that?

Even when I grow up in a situation where your problem is "fixed" I am showing you that there is still a problem. And that's not even deep diving into why what you think is the problem is a problem in the first place. Do yall really think that as a Black man I am predisposed to be shifty and lazy and destined to be poor, or poorer than Whites? Do yall really think I am predisposed to violence and destined to commit more crime?

That is an American invention of who we are. And America created the circumstances for that to come true. But, in 2021, leave the burden to fix a perception and limitation, I didn't create, and then at every opportunity find new ways to hinder me from gaining the power to fix it. All the while throwing your hands up in the air saying, "Hey, I didn't do it" while cashing your check on Friday.

Over the years, I've given yall evidence, both anecdotal and empirical, that shows bias and race is the predominant issue. And, yet, here is Paul writing a whole wall of text, suggesting to fix all these other things while hurdling over the primary issue, race. Why are yall so afraid to confront that issue?

I'm not a n****r. I can't fix America treating me and seeing me as one. One day, hopefully, yall will see I am not and none of my ancestors were either.

Thank you FTP for your honesty, and for holding up the mirror so to speak. I'm white, I apologize for my ancestors who created the n----. You and all of black Americans are not n----, and neither were your ancestors. I apologize that you carry a burden you didn't create. It should be my burden. And I'm willing to carry it. I don't know how, but I know I want to.

The onus isn't on you to change, it's on us, white Americans. It's well past time we acknowledge the harm done. I know I'm not the only white American who wants to make amends. There needs to be a whole hell of a lot more of us willing to acknowledge our role in causing pain for black Americans.

I don't think black Americans are criminals or lazy, certainly not any more than white Americans. I don't think we're all that different when afforded a level playing field.

I don't know how to fix the mistakes we've made, but I'm willing to try.

 

[V Chip]

According to Robert Sapolsky we humans analyze strangers within a fraction of a second. Stereotyping is not far behind that initial analysis. With the aid of the frontal lobe we can learn to judge people as individuals and not as members of a group. In fact, this is the solution to end racism.

So you’re saying the onus is on the people who believe the stereotypes to make the change to not believing in those stereotypes.

It’s almost as if I read someone else saying almost the exact same thing earlier in this thread… I wonder who that could have been…

 

[Paul]

So you’re saying the onus is on the people who believe the stereotypes to make the change to not believing in those stereotypes.

It’s almost as if I read someone else saying almost the exact same thing earlier in this thread… I wonder who that could have been…

Ok, let's review the previews posts.

I said that stereotypes have some basis on reality. Groups have tendencies, that is inescapable.

Some groups have positive stereotypes and other groups have negative stereotypes:

A kind person is kind, regardless of the number of evil people that belong to the same group. A witty person is witty, regardless of the number of dull people that belong to the same group. Wise people know not to judge an individual according to the group tendencies.

Sadly, many still negatively stereotype individuals and that can be racism.

It would be helpful if the group with a negative stereotype tried to eliminate the negative tendencies.

Are stereotypes accurate or inaccurate? We summarize evidence that stereotype accuracy is one of the largest and most replicable findings in social psychology. We address controversies in this literature, including the long-standing and continuing but unjustified emphasis on stereotype inaccuracy,

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44318890

 

[V Chip]

It would be helpful if the group with a negative stereotype tried to eliminate the negative tendencies.

So now we’re back to those who are the target of inaccurate stereotypes must bear the burden of clearing their own names, so to speak, even though the negative stereotype is not accurate for them.

You’re all over the board on this one. I wish you would simply reply with your own ideas instead of trying to obfuscate with links to other things that don’t always back up your own thoughts.

 

[Paul]

So now we’re back to those who are the target of inaccurate stereotypes must bear the burden of clearing their own names, so to speak, even though the negative stereotype is not accurate for them.

Stereotypes are often based on reality. They are not as inaccurate as you think they are. I am going to assume this was not a bad faith straw man. Go back and carefully read my words.

You’re all over the board on this one. I wish you would simply reply with your own ideas instead of trying to obfuscate with links to other things that don’t always back up your own thoughts.

I understand you are confused. I will try to make my point a bit less complicated.

 

[V Chip]

I am going to assume this was not a bad faith straw man. Go back and carefully read my words.

Again, not a straw man. You said a couple posts back:

With the aid of the frontal lobe we can learn to judge people as individuals and not as members of a group.

That is saying in essence that the person who holds the stereotype about others can learn to overcome those stereotypes and treat individuals without the stereotype (I.e., people are responsible themselves to learn or be taught to ignore negative stereotypes).

Yet in this last post again you were saying the people being stereotyped have to work to undo a stereotype (I.e., they are responsible to change their behavior in excess so that others don’t stereotype them).

It would be helpful if the group with a negative stereotype tried to eliminate the negative tendencies.

So which is it?

I understand you are confused. I will try to make my point a bit less complicated.

Again with the condescension.

Stereotypes are often based on reality. They are not as inaccurate as you think they are

Some are, yes. For instance, women know more about periods than men. Now there might be a handful of men who have studied menstruation their whole lives who could teach the average woman a thing or two that the women don’t know. But by and large that stereotype is true and based in reality.

But in the link you yourself posted it said this:

Decades of research have shown that stereotypes can facilitate intergroup hostility and give rise to toxic prejudices around sex, race, age and multiple other social distinctions. Stereotypes are often used to justify injustice and discrimination, validate oppression, enable exploitation, rationalize violence, and shield corrupt power structures. Stereotype-based expectations and interpretations routinely derail intimate relationships, contaminate laws (and their enforcement), poison social commerce, and stymie individual freedom and achievement.

(Emphasis mine)

Those are the stereotypes we are talking about, not ones like “kids won’t be able to have a conversation about Nietzsche” or “bushmen are scared of helicopters.”

So to return to the two main stereotypes we discussed in this thread… do you think blacks are genetically or environmentally predisposed to violence more than whites? Do you think Hispanics are lazy?

Those are the stereotypes we are talking about. Do you believe those are based on reality? And which group is responsible for changing those negative stereotypes, society or the blacks and Hispanics?

 

[Paul]

That is saying in essence that the person who holds the stereotype about others can learn to overcome those stereotypes and treat individuals without the stereotype (I.e., people are responsible themselves to learn or be taught to ignore negative stereotypes).

I agree!

Yet in this last post again you were saying the people being stereotyped have to work to undo a stereotype (I.e., they are responsible to change their behavior in excess so that others don’t stereotype them).

It is not one or the other. It is both! It seems this is counterintuitive, that is where you have some confusion. The root of the stereotype is based on reality. If that reality changes over time then the stereotype may change. Sadly a negative stereotype may persist for a much longer time after a positive change, however, eventually a new stereotype emerges.

Some are, yes. For instance, women know more about periods than men. Now there might be a handful of men who have studied menstruation their whole lives who could teach the average woman a thing or two that the women don’t know. But by and large that stereotype is true and based in reality.

That is a great example! By the same token it would be wrong to assume all males knows nothing about menstruation. There is always the possibility a male may be gynecologists. To be on the safe side it is best to judge the men individually rather than as members of the male gender.

But in the link you yourself posted it said this:

(Emphasis mine)

Those are the stereotypes we are talking about, not ones like “kids won’t be able to have a conversation about Nietzsche” or “bushmen are scared of helicopters.”

So to return to the two main stereotypes we discussed in this thread… do you think blacks are genetically or environmentally predisposed to violence more than whites? Do you think Hispanics are lazy?

It seems you are trying to bait me into saying something unsavory so you can call me a racist. I am going to assume that was unintentional.

Those are the stereotypes we are talking about. Do you believe those are based on reality? And which group is responsible for changing those negative stereotypes, society or the blacks and Hispanics?

Members of groups change the stereotype all the time. Over time those that do not use he frontal lobe to avoid stereotyping may come around to see that.

By the way, nice post.

 

[Paul]

Thank you FTP for your honesty, and for holding up the mirror so to speak. I'm white, I apologize for my ancestors who created the n----. You and all of black Americans are not n----, and neither were your ancestors. I apologize that you carry a burden you didn't create. It should be my burden. And I'm willing to carry it. I don't know how, but I know I want to.

The onus isn't on you to change, it's on us, white Americans. It's well past time we acknowledge the harm done. I know I'm not the only white American who wants to make amends. There needs to be a whole hell of a lot more of us willing to acknowledge our role in causing pain for black Americans.

I don't think black Americans are criminals or lazy, certainly not any more than white Americans. I don't think we're all that different when afforded a level playing field.

I don't know how to fix the mistakes we've made, but I'm willing to try.

I admire your intentions, but if I was black I would feel condescended. As someone that came from Latin America I would not want an Anglo Saxon to speak to me in that manner. You are perfectly ok to feel that way and your intentions are honorable, but there are words you should keep to yourself. Treat everybody with respect and dignity and always be kind to your fellow men. However, do not advertise how you think and why you do it. You unknowingly place yourself in a position of superiority. I know quite well is not intentional.

 

[samiam5211]

I admire your intentions, but if I was black I would feel condescended.

How do you know how you would feel if you were black?

 

[Paul]

How do you know how you would feel if you were black?

You are correct, I can only imagine. Furthermore, I grew up outside the USA and never had to face that sort of adversity. I would want the words to be less condescending. He repeat the N word three times and that gave me a sick feeling. I thought he was condescending and that is my opinion.

 

[Optimus Prime]

As someone that came from Latin America I would not want an Anglo Saxon to speak to me in that manner.

Hold on,

You’re from Latin America?

Why haven’t you mentioned this before?

 

[Paul]

Hold on,

You’re from Latin America?

Why haven’t you mentioned this before?

I said it a few times and forum members thought it was excessive to mention that. Honestly, my origins are not important. What really matters is the content of what is written in the forum. To interpret the words based on nationality or ethnicity is biased.

 

[DaveXA]

I admire your intentions, but if I was black I would feel condescended. As someone that came from Latin America I would not want an Anglo Saxon to speak to me in that manner. You are perfectly ok to feel that way and your intentions are honorable, but there are words you should keep to yourself. Treat everybody with respect and dignity and always be kind to your fellow men. However, do not advertise how you think and why you do it. You unknowingly place yourself in a position of superiority. I know quite well is not intentional.

I was responding to FTP's post in good faith. He knows a bit of my posting history, and I believe he understands that I care about this issue. Context matters. What I wanted to do was acknowledge that I hear what he's saying and agree with him that for reconciliation to happen, I should realize that white Americans are part of the problem. Even if you don't have a racist bone in your body, you still benefit from the policies that were rooted in racism.

I think this is why he states that simply having a two parent household doesn't automatically fix or level the playing field. The problem is broader and deeper than that, even though it is a significant part of the overall picture.

I think the comparison he made with how males "benefit" from their sex. Even if us males don't intend to, we benefit from the from the patriarchal lean in society. I wish there wasn't a pay gap between men and women, but it exists.

Similar issues exist for some minorities. A lot of how the American economy was built was rooted in racism. I don't know how to fix that, but it does need to be acknowledged and addressed.

I'm not sure how apologizing is putting myself in a position of superiority. It's precisely the opposite. But, I'll let FTP and other black posters here decide what they think about my post. Their opinions matter to me because they as individuals matter.

 

[Paul]

I was responding to FTP's post in good faith. He knows a bit of my posting history, and I believe he understands that I care about this issue. Context matters. What I wanted to do was acknowledge that I hear what he's saying and agree with him that for reconciliation to happen, I should realize that white Americans are part of the problem. Even if you don't have a racist bone in your body, you still benefit from the policies that were rooted in racism.

As I said before your view is very honorable, however, there is a bit of condescension. You are probably thinking, "holy cow I cannot win with these people". That is not the issue. I would like Anglo Saxon Americans to simply act normally and to not treat minorities (a condescending term) as if they were fragile people that need special handling. My motto is to treat everybody as an individual and not as a member of a given group. If we evaluate other individually and separate them from the group they come from we can easily eliminate racism. Why? Racism is judging people according to the group they belong to.

I think this is why he states that simply having a two parent household doesn't automatically fix or level the playing field. The problem is broader and deeper than that, even though it is a significant part of the overall picture.

Having a two parent household will not automatically make everything equal between a white child and a black child. That standard is simply unrealistic. Children of Mormon, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Italian, German, Hispanic, etc achieve differently. In fact children from the same family achieve differently. What we want is forward progress and not always try to catch the people up front. It is a futile form of keeping up with the Jones.

I think the comparison he made with how males "benefit" from their sex. Even if us males don't intend to, we benefit from the from the patriarchal lean in society. I wish there wasn't a pay gap between men and women, but it exists.

The patriarchy is real and we have to blame evolution for that. Nature saddled the females with the possibility of yearly pregnancies from adolescence until the menopause. In the old days huge families were the norm due to no contraception. Try getting ahead with a litter of eight kids, not an easy task. Contraception in the late 50s was a blessing for women. To make matters worse humans are a species with sexual dimorphism. The male is larger, stronger, and more aggressive.

Similar issues exist for some minorities. A lot of how the American economy was built was rooted in racism. I don't know how to fix that, but it does need to be acknowledged and addressed.

As someone that is not an English speaker I saw the barriers and often wanted to have the privilege of being born in America. However, there were plenty of opportunities. I discovered it was possible to change the minds of those that have bigotry by showing them one could do the work.

I'm not sure how apologizing is putting myself in a position of superiority. It's precisely the opposite. But, I'll let FTP and other black posters here decide what they think about my post. Their opinions matter to me because they as individuals matter.

Watch this video by a man that has been black since birth.