All things Racist...USA edition (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

I was looking for a place to put this so we could discuss but didn't really find a place that worked so I created this thread so we can all place articles, experiences, videos and examples of racism in the USA.

This is one that happened this week. The lady even called and filed a complaint on the officer. This officer also chose to wear the body cam (apparently, LA doesn't require this yet). This exchange wasn't necessarily racist IMO until she started with the "mexican racist...you will never be white, like you want" garbage. That is when it turned racist IMO

All the murderer and other insults, I think are just a by product of CRT and ACAB rhetoric that is very common on the radical left and sadly is being brought to mainstream in this country.

Another point that I think is worth mentioning is she is a teacher and the sense of entitlement she feels is mind blowing.

https://news.yahoo.com/black-teacher-berates-latino-la-221235341.html

 

[Paul]

@RobF Honestly, he barely is worth responding to anymore. Had he actually read my post, he would have seen that the first link I left is to the actual study--which wasn't conducted by the New York Times. So, him attacking the Times as a source just outs his ignorance. The 2nd link is to the NYT, which did a wonderful job of highlighting the study and providing living graphs to some of the data for the visual learners. Had he read the Times article, he would have seen they said:

According to the study, led by researchers at Stanford, Harvard and the Census Bureau,

Most of the time researchers do not go into other issues other than racism. Those guys want to keep their academic jobs.

That is his response to the issue of wealth gap. Which, again, outs how he actually feels. You see him, and persons who think like him, are completely fine with a system being unequal because "that is to be expected, not all groups achieve the same" as long as they are the benefactors of that imbalance. Any perceived shift and they lose their minds.

Do you think all people can achieve the same? Please explain.

They are completely fine with inequality as long as their demographic keeps the advantages, the privileges and the power. And let's be clear here. I'm not talking about the lowest common denominator among them--the supremacists, the nationalists, the racists--I'm talking about the ordinary Joe's and Jill's who don't want any change and are fighting to keep the status quo.

There is no equality; this should be obvious.

There is racism and that continues to be a problem. However, the current methods of defining racism is assuming a disparity has to be do to systemic racism. This is flawed because it ignores multiple additional factors besides racism.

No one ever said race was the ONLY issue.

Great! How can those other factors be improved?

 

[CoolBrees]

We have chips and salsa but we don’t achieve as much as people who aren’t on ignore because, reasons.

I really is MAPs exclusive club. I am in the group though I don’t think I am nearly quality enough to be in this crowd.

 

[Farb]

And, yes, having fathers in homes is very important but the study demonstrates that it isn't about having YOUR OWN father at home; it is about living in a neighborhood and a community where fathers are present. Why? Because that indicates those communities see less bias. The fathers aren't dead, aren't incarcerated and have jobs, meaning they were given opportunities and aren't involved in crime. But, even if we achieve that we still have to fix the giant reset button that overwhelmingly affects black men. And to do that, we have to change how our society and our institutions see and treat black men.

There is a lot to read there but something that stood out to me while reading this is this thought.
Why is the onus on society to change how it view something? Would it not be more prudent and just for the group in question to change the perception/stereotype by correcting a problem that is a large part internal? If it is a problem that society and our institutions see young black men as criminals and gang bangers first, then would it not solve the problem by having the crime rate with young black males drop in reality? I think the family unit needs to bolstered in this country, that should be our #1 priority, IMO. A father does not need to live in the home but he needs to be present and active. This needs to be prioritized in a big way.

Parents need to be responsible for how they raise and teach their children to act in the society. Again, this is not a race thing but a culture issue for all races. This is not to say that there are not problems that can and need to be addressed by society, but to lay the blame at everyone else is just kind of a simplistic approach to a multi faceted problem.

 

[Paul]

There is a lot to read there but something that stood out to me while reading this is this thought.
Why is the onus on society to change how it view something? Would it not be more prudent and just for the group in question to change the perception/stereotype by correcting a problem that is a large part internal? If it is a problem that society and our institutions see young black men as criminals and gang bangers first, then would it not solve the problem by having the crime rate with young black males drop in reality? I think the family unit needs to bolstered in this country, that should be our #1 priority, IMO. A father does not need to live in the home but he needs to be present and active. This needs to be prioritized in a big way.

Parents need to be responsible for how they raise and teach their children to act in the society. Again, this is not a race thing but a culture issue for all races. This is not to say that there are not problems that can and need to be addressed by society, but to lay the blame at everyone else is just kind of a simplistic approach to a multi faceted problem.

This is the first time in world history where one ethnic group expects another ethnic group to fix a problem.

 

[brandon]

I really is MAPs exclusive club. I am in the group though I don’t think I am nearly quality enough to be in this crowd.

It really takes a certain je ne sais quois to be in the club, but don't worry. I believe you're fully qualified.

 

[Saintamaniac]

Why is the onus on society to change how it view something? Would it not be more prudent and just for the group in question to change the perception/stereotype by correcting a problem that is a large part internal?

The problem is that society shouldn't be looking at individuals and assuming that they fall into a specific category based on their appearance alone. How is it fair for a college educated, law-abiding young black man to be first thought of as a criminal? Would it be fair to think that all white people are serial killers? No, it wouldn't. Is the onus on white people to change the perception that they are all serial killers? No, that is a ridiculous thought....just as it is equally ridiculous that a black person is immediately thought to be one of the many stereotypes out there about black people. The onus should be on society to judge individuals as individuals rather than assigning a stereotype to that person based on their outward appearance.

If it is a problem that society and our institutions see young black men as criminals and gang bangers first, then would it not solve the problem by having the crime rate with young black males drop in reality?

No, it would not solve the problem. Granted that crime in poor black communities is a problem that needs to be resolved. That doesn't relieve society of the problem of judging individuals base on stereotypes attributed to them due to their race. My brothers live in predominately black gated communities with little to no crime. Why is it acceptable for society to see them as criminals and gang bangers first? Why shouldn't the onus be on society to stop judging people based on their appearance?

 

[V Chip]

Why is the onus on society to change how it view something? Would it not be more prudent and just for the group in question to change the perception/stereotype by correcting a problem that is a large part internal? If it is a problem that society and our institutions see young black men as criminals and gang bangers first, then would it not solve the problem by having the crime rate with young black males drop in reality?

Because "society" is the thing with the power and the problem.

"Society" was what kept women from having the right to vote. Women obviously were fully capable of voting, but "society" at that time (mostly the men in power, but some women as well) thought they shouldn't, or that they weren't capable of doing so. The stereotype was not based in reality but outdated ideas of women's capabilities. It was the work of women and those who believed they should have the right to vote that changed society's view and eventually women were granted the right to vote by law.

Same thing for civil rights, or gay rights, or so many other rights and negative stereotypes that were grounded in false beliefs. Society is the thing that needs to have its opinions changed. Until that happens, the same false beliefs will continue to deny the rights and not correct the behavior and policies that are in place.

I highlighted a part of your statement that I feel is completely incorrect -- the problem is not largely internal. It's not based in reality but in stereotypes. Telling black people "you need to fix this stereotype by over-correcting the problem that society falsely holds" is blaming black people for the false stereotypes.

"Hey, we believe that blacks love watermelon more than whites. If you don't like that, then you should make sure that blacks eat watermelon less than they currently do to correct this stereotype. We need to see a trend of less watermelon sales in the black community, and only then might we consider it less of a stereotype."

 

[Paul]

Because "society" is the thing with the power and the problem.

"Society" was what kept women from having the right to vote. Women obviously were fully capable of voting, but "society" at that time (mostly the men in power, but some women as well) thought they shouldn't, or that they weren't capable of doing so. The stereotype was not based in reality but outdated ideas of women's capabilities. It was the work of women and those who believed they should have the right to vote that changed society's view and eventually women were granted the right to vote by law.

Same thing for civil rights, or gay rights, or so many other rights and negative stereotypes that were grounded in false beliefs. Society is the thing that needs to have its opinions changed. Until that happens, the same false beliefs will continue to deny the rights and not correct the behavior and policies that are in place.

I highlighted a part of your statement that I feel is completely incorrect -- the problem is not largely internal. It's not based in reality but in stereotypes. Telling black people "you need to fix this stereotype by over-correcting the problem that society falsely holds" is blaming black people for the false stereotypes.

"Hey, we believe that blacks love watermelon more than whites. If you don't like that, then you should make sure that blacks eat watermelon less than they currently do to correct this stereotype. We need to see a trend of less watermelon sales in the black community, and only then might we consider it less of a stereotype."

All he is saying is that it would be beneficial to try to change a negative stereotype into a positive stereotype.

Let me give you an example: A white dude that owns a construction company has a low opinion of Hispanic immigrants because he mostly pays attention to the negative stereotypes. One day due to the unavailability of American workers he is forced to hire Hispanic construction workers. He realizes they work hard, have talent, and are dedicated to the job. The white dude changes his views and then decides to hire nothing but Hispanic construction workers.

 

[V Chip]

All he is saying is that it would be beneficial to try to change a negative stereotype into a positive stereotype.

Let me give you an example: A white dude that owns a construction company has a low opinion of Hispanic immigrants because he mostly pays attention to the negative stereotypes. One day due to the unavailability of American workers he is forced to hire Hispanic construction workers. He realizes they work hard, have talent, and are dedicated to the job. The white dude changes his views and then decides to hire nothing but Hispanic construction workers.

But how is that an example of the stereotyped group changing the stereotype? You said he was forced to hire them. Force == (one of your favorite words) coercion.

Sure, they worked hard. They would have worked hard regardless. They didn't change anything.

Now if you said "he hired a bunch of lazy Hispanics, who then decided 'let's change this guy's mind and work hard today'" you might have something. It wasn't the Hispanics who had an internal problem of being lazy to begin with that they had to work to change. That's what Farb was suggesting.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

It isn't an either/or proposition. Society created the culture through 400 years of oppression. The culture continues to be passed generationally, especially in the last 2 or 3 generations. The toxicity of the culture doesn't just effect one ethenic group, but society as a whole.

So society has a moral obligation to HELP fix the culture they helped to create. The individuals have the obligation to work WITH society on these efforts.

The thing is, all this is happening. When we get in these discussions we tend to act like it's not. Society is doing a lot to try and correct the situation (the debate is really how much they should be doing) and the culture has been on a steady pace of improvement over the last 5 decades on poverty and education and the last 2 decades on crime and violence.

 

[coldseat]

All he is saying is that it would be beneficial to try to change a negative stereotype into a positive stereotype.

Let me give you an example: A white dude that owns a construction company has a low opinion of Hispanic immigrants because he mostly pays attention to the negative stereotypes. One day due to the unavailability of American workers he is forced to hire Hispanic construction workers. He realizes they work hard, have talent, and are dedicated to the job. The white dude changes his views and then decides to hire nothing but Hispanic construction workers.

Lol, the white dude in that example would not change his views of Hispanic construction workers. That one Hispanic construction worker would be the exception to his widely held belief that they are lazy and untalented. All the other Hispanic construction workers are still lazy, until he meets them personally and they become an exception to his rule as well.

 

[Optimus Prime]

And does the owner think anything other that his Hispanic workers are the exception to the rule?

Does he think they could run his company one day? Does he socialize with them?

Is he okay with them moving into his neighborhood?

Is he okay with his daughter dating one of the workers?

Or is there a limit to what he thinks they can accomplish, and that limit is good construction workers?

If "American" (Hispanics can be American too you know) construction works become available again is he going to keep his good Hispanic workers or have them replaced at the earliest opportunity

 

[brandon]

One day due to the unavailability of American workers he is forced to hire Hispanic construction workers.

Your forking problem is that you automatically assume American = white and Hispanic = non-American.

 

[First Time Poster]

There is a lot to read there but something that stood out to me while reading this is this thought.
Why is the onus on society to change how it view something? Would it not be more prudent and just for the group in question to change the perception/stereotype by correcting a problem that is a large part internal? If it is a problem that society and our institutions see young black men as criminals and gang bangers first, then would it not solve the problem by having the crime rate with young black males drop in reality? I think the family unit needs to bolstered in this country, that should be our #1 priority, IMO. A father does not need to live in the home but he needs to be present and active. This needs to be prioritized in a big way.

Parents need to be responsible for how they raise and teach their children to act in the society. Again, this is not a race thing but a culture issue for all races. This is not to say that there are not problems that can and need to be addressed by society, but to lay the blame at everyone else is just kind of a simplistic approach to a multi faceted problem.

"Your invention reveals you."

You aren't stating it plainly as Paul but there seems to be this belief that the "fatherless black community" and the stigmatism of being violent is our own creation and thus our issue to fix. It is not.

America, no let's speak facts here, White America created the n****r. The enslaved persons brought here weren't n****rs. The first generation Black Americans weren't n****rs. My grandfathers, American soldiers, who fought for freedom but came home to inequality weren't n****rs. I'm not a n****r.

And as Baldwin stated in another interview he gave, "White America created the n****r so White America needs to figure out why a n****r was necessary to have in the first place." From birth, I have to carry this centuries old stigmata of being Black, have to endure the bias built against me in institutions that neither myself or my ancestors created and, yet, the onus is on me to change how I am perceived?! Hell no. Your perception of me was sinful and flawed from its inception. That's not my burden. It is yours.

And, yes, when I say yours I mean present day society. YOU are accountable. Because you reap the benefits of what was sown centuries ago. If a rapist deposited 1 million dollars into your family's account in 1600 and, today, you still use all of the benefits that money reaped, you are accountable. I know because I cash a similar check as a man. I had nothing to do with making institutions and a society that is misogynistic and biased against women. But, as a man, I benefit from it. It isn't women's responsibility to change how we perceive and treat them with inequality. That's ours, as men.

And we need to stop talking about fault. Remove fault. I'm not faulting you for having the advantage or using it. I'm simply revealing to you how it is. "Once you become aware, you become responsible." I'm aware of the imbalance of genders in our society and the onus is on me, the gender that benefits from the inequality, to make it fair. Not on women to prove they shouldn't be treated unfairly. We never should have treated them that way in the first place! You insist that families need to be fixed first, yet, I just showed you a study, done with extensive research, that shows that even when black men are raised in two parent homes, well educated, nice neighborhoods and with money, they still are statistically more likely to be poor than rich and in 99% of the cases they carry over significantly less wealth than their white peers raised under the exact same circumstances! Are yall okay with that?

Even when I grow up in a situation where your problem is "fixed" I am showing you that there is still a problem. And that's not even deep diving into why what you think is the problem is a problem in the first place. Do yall really think that as a Black man I am predisposed to be shifty and lazy and destined to be poor, or poorer than Whites? Do yall really think I am predisposed to violence and destined to commit more crime?

That is an American invention of who we are. And America created the circumstances for that to come true. But, in 2021, leave the burden to fix a perception and limitation, I didn't create, and then at every opportunity find new ways to hinder me from gaining the power to fix it. All the while throwing your hands up in the air saying, "Hey, I didn't do it" while cashing your check on Friday.

Over the years, I've given yall evidence, both anecdotal and empirical, that shows bias and race is the predominant issue. And, yet, here is Paul writing a whole wall of text, suggesting to fix all these other things while hurdling over the primary issue, race. Why are yall so afraid to confront that issue?

I'm not a n****r. I can't fix America treating me and seeing me as one. One day, hopefully, yall will see I am not and none of my ancestors were either.

 

[samiam5211]

All he is saying is that it would be beneficial to try to change a negative stereotype into a positive stereotype.

Let me give you an example: A white dude that owns a construction company has a low opinion of Hispanic immigrants because he mostly pays attention to the negative stereotypes. One day due to the unavailability of American workers he is forced to hire Hispanic construction workers. He realizes they work hard, have talent, and are dedicated to the job. The white dude changes his views and then decides to hire nothing but Hispanic construction workers.

If he assumes that all Hispanics work hard, that isn't really any better than assuming they are all lazy. he is still being racist.

 

[Paul]

But how is that an example of the stereotyped group changing the stereotype? You said he was forced to hire them. Force == (one of your favorite words) coercion.

Sure, they worked hard. They would have worked hard regardless. They didn't change anything.

Now if you said "he hired a bunch of lazy Hispanics, who then decided 'let's change this guy's mind and work hard today'" you might have something. It wasn't the Hispanics who had an internal problem of being lazy to begin with that they had to work to change. That's what Farb was suggesting.

Whether the workers are lazy or not is not the issue. The issue is that the white dude changed his perception.

The group with a negative stereotype has a problem and that problem can only be changed by turning the negative into a positive. Some of this has to do with the perception by others, but it also requires internal change.

 

[brandon]

The group with a negative stereotype has a problem and that problem can only be changed by turning the negative into a positive. Some of this has to do with the perception by others, but it also requires internal change.

Yes, internal change by the people who hold the stereotypical belief. And the onus is on them to change their beliefs, not for the people they're stereotyping to bend over backwards to demonstrate that the stereotype is wrong.

 

[V Chip]

Whether the workers are lazy or not is not the issue. The issue is that the white dude changed his perception.

The group with a negative stereotype has a problem and that problem can only be changed by turning the negative into a positive. Some of this has to do with the perception by others, but it also requires internal change.

In your example, how **exactly** did the group with the negative stereotype turn the negative into the positive to change the white owner's mind?

What "internal change" did the Hispanic workers undertake?