Will “mass deportation” actually happen (2 Viewers)

[superchuck500]

It’s so repulsive to see people cheering for what is basically 80% the same thing as the Holocaust - different end result but otherwise very similar.

Economists have said it would tank the economy and cause inflation - notwithstanding the cost.

Is it going to actually happen or is this Build The Wall 2.0?

 

[SystemShock]

I agree with this. That's what's really at the heart of the overuse of H1B visas.

Not from my perspective. Even if education was free in the U.S., a U.S. corporation would prefer hiring someone on the other side of the world who's going to work for 1/4 of the salary a U.S. engineer would make and a sack of rice, on whatever days and hours of the week, and then maybe bring that person over for 1/2 the salary and not complain about the work schedule.

BTW, the sack of rice comment is not meant to be condescending... I don't know if they still do it, but Hewlett Packard used to give its Philippine employees sacks of rice for Christmas, and those were valued by the employees. Give a U.S. engineer a sack of rice for Christmas, or tell a U.S. NOC tech to work 11pm to 7am on New Year's Eve for the same hourly rate as 9-5 M-F, see what happens.

There are many other perks of hiring off-shore or near-shore... for example, in the U.S., when you leave your job, you usually give 15 days notice, even though you really don't have to; in India, you have to give 2 month's notice.

Of course, when you bring people over who are used to work in those conditions, by U.S. law you can't make them work in some of those conditions in the U.S., but you certainly get a much more flexible employee, who can be discarded when you are done with him without the HR hassle a U.S. citizen/resident would bring, as they usually (in my experience) they come as contractors. My last employer, by law (I was told this by HR) being a financial institution, contracts could not extend past 18 months... so disposable engineers.

Not long after the tech bubble burst and through the mortgage crisis, I saw many colleagues get laid off, and be given a choice: leave now, or leave in 2 months while you train your replacement in India/Singapore/Philippines. If someone is thinking of going into STEM, one has to take into consideration that you are competing with people around the world who are willing to work for much less than you and in less favorable conditions. For many, depending on the field they are considering, it may not be worth their while.

And one last thing: an H1B visa isn't really a substitute for immigration It's just a temporary permit to work somewhere. You can be kicked out when your job ends.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Rod Cross, the mayor of Toledo, Oregon, paused to pick up his mail in early December as he usually does while backing out of his driveway, but a hand-addressed envelope stopped him in his tracks.

The anonymous letter, titled “The brown roundup, part one,” warned that come January, the country would “commence the largest roundup of brown illegals in our history.”

It later detailed ways to help the deportation of “folks who you suspect are here in our country on an illegal basis” — including by taking down license plate numbers and sharing it with authorities, according to Cross, who read from the letter during a Toledo city council meeting Wednesday.

“I’m livid because I don’t know if history is just not getting taught anymore or if the memories of my father and his generation have just been wiped out of existence,” he said at the meeting. “But this is not America.”

The letter had also been sent to officials of other Oregon cities, including Coos Bay, North Bend and Lincoln City, all along the state’s coast, Cross said. In the days since, state and local officials have condemned the letter’s content, calling it a racist and offensive attempt to intimidate Oregon residents.

The state has joined the list of communities in the United States that in recent months have been the subject of anti-immigrant messaging, sometimes amplified by President-elect Donald Trump and his allies. Trump has pledged to carry out mass deportations after his January inauguration.

In a statement Friday, Oregon Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum (D) said “racist letter writing campaigns” had “no place” in the state.

“It is time to rise above these despicable tactics and demonstrate the true spirit of inclusivity and compassion that defines the Oregon way,” Rosenblum said……..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/12/22/oregon-racist-letters-immigrants/

 

[Dragon]

The final part of the letter is particularly appalling. It essentially implies that people should be deported so their homes can be taken for little or no cost. Adding to the outrage, the letters are being sent anonymously, which only highlights the cowardice behind these actions.

 

[Lapaz]

I support legal immigration, not open borders that people can run across at will. What do you people not understand there are over 4 billion people in this world that can claim they are in hardship because 4,000,000,000+ people live in poverty and oppression if we took them all in we’d be a Third World country overnight like I said, I support legal immigration and those that look like Salma Hayek.

What border is open? You're repeating a talking point. The Biden administration is following the law, and added some restrictions via executive action, but those can be overturned by the courts. Legislation is what we "people" have said is needed, like the conservative legislation that was proposed by Lankford which would restrict LEGAL asylum claims. Republicans have sold the idea that there is an open border, but that isn't true, or at best very disengenous. It is a restrictive border, but the restrictions on asylum are too lenient. The alternatives available to the president without legislation are all bad. Congress needs to act.

 

[coldseat]

Not from my perspective. Even if education was free in the U.S., a U.S. corporation would prefer hiring someone on the other side of the world who's going to work for 1/4 of the salary a U.S. engineer would make and a sack of rice, on whatever days and hours of the week, and then maybe bring that person over for 1/2 the salary and not complain about the work schedule.

BTW, the sack of rice comment is not meant to be condescending... I don't know if they still do it, but Hewlett Packard used to give its Philippine employees sacks of rice for Christmas, and those were valued by the employees. Give a U.S. engineer a sack of rice for Christmas, or tell a U.S. NOC tech to work 11pm to 7am on New Year's Eve for the same hourly rate as 9-5 M-F, see what happens.

There are many other perks of hiring off-shore or near-shore... for example, in the U.S., when you leave your job, you usually give 15 days notice, even though you really don't have to; in India, you have to give 2 month's notice.

Of course, when you bring people over who are used to work in those conditions, by U.S. law you can't make them work in some of those conditions in the U.S., but you certainly get a much more flexible employee, who can be discarded when you are done with him without the HR hassle a U.S. citizen/resident would bring, as they usually (in my experience) they come as contractors. My last employer, by law (I was told this by HR) being a financial institution, contracts could not extend past 18 months... so disposable engineers.

Not long after the tech bubble burst and through the mortgage crisis, I saw many colleagues get laid off, and be given a choice: leave now, or leave in 2 months while you train your replacement in India/Singapore/Philippines. If someone is thinking of going into STEM, one has to take into consideration that you are competing with people around the world who are willing to work for much less than you and in less favorable conditions. For many, depending on the field they are considering, it may not be worth their while.

And one last thing: an H1B visa isn't really a substitute for immigration It's just a temporary permit to work somewhere. You can be kicked out when your job ends.

I have no doubt that your perspective is valid and true to some extent. There are certainly sectors in STEM careers where this is the case, but I don't believe it's like that universally. The overall unemployment rate for people with STEM degrees is something like 2% here in the US. So clearly there aren't engineers that are US citizens just sitting around not getting jobs because of H1B visas. Something like 20% of college graduates graduate with degrees in STEM fields here in the US, which is well below many Asian countries. If that number were something like 30% -35%, you would probably see a lot less use of H1B visas to find candidates to fill jobs.

They can't offshore all or even most engineering careers. It also takes a lot of money and company resources to train up an engineer (especially a new one out of college), so we are not as easily disposable or replaceable as workers in some other fields. Employees with H1B visas have to be trained up in the same way, there's no shortcut for experience and working knowledge in engineering. But if worker's in STEM fields are laid off or otherwise find themselves unemployed, I'm also going to guess that the amount of time required to find a replacement job is a lot less than in other fields.

 

[Dragon]

I have worked in STEM for 40 years, and in my opinion, the developments over the past decade show that, in some ways, you are both correct.

It is indeed more challenging for individuals working in the U.S. on a visa to change jobs compared to U.S. citizen engineers. While the high demand for skilled STEM professionals has led companies to actively recruit talent globally, the process is far more straightforward for U.S. citizens to switch to better opportunities. For immigrant workers on visas, the hiring company must first navigate the complexities of the work visa process, which can be time-consuming and costly. This added hurdle makes employees on visas less vulnerable to aggressive poaching by competitors.

 

[superchuck500]

Congress has wasted no time moving on the immigration agenda - the House today passed the Laken Riley Act, sending it to the Senate. The act changes federal immigration law in that it requires DHS to take custody and detain illegal immigrants who are arrested by local authorities for various theft-related crimes. This is based on the Laken Riley case where a UGA student murdered by an illegal immigrant who was learned to have been previously arrested by local authorities for shoplifting - but DHS did not issue a detainer.

It will be interesting to see how many aliens this brings into DHS custody over the course of a year.

House passes Laken Riley Act to amp up border enforcement and put pressure on Democrats

The bill, named for a nursing school student who was murdered by a man in the country illegally, passed the House last year. The new Republican-controlled Senate is expected to take it up Friday.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[bird]

Congress has wasted no time moving on the immigration agenda - the House today passed the Laken Riley Act, sending it to the Senate. The act changes federal immigration law in that it requires DHS to take custody and detain illegal immigrants who are arrested by local authorities for various theft-related crimes. This is based on the Laken Riley case where a UGA student murdered by an illegal immigrant who was learned to have been previously arrested by local authorities for shoplifting - but DHS did not issue a detainer.

It will be interesting to see how many aliens this brings into DHS custody over the course of a year.

House passes Laken Riley Act to amp up border enforcement and put pressure on Democrats

The bill, named for a nursing school student who was murdered by a man in the country illegally, passed the House last year. The new Republican-controlled Senate is expected to take it up Friday.

www.nbcnews.com

Now, howzabout we every CEO that causes death.

 

[SystemShock]

I have no doubt that your perspective is valid and true to some extent. There are certainly sectors in STEM careers where this is the case, but I don't believe it's like that universally. The overall unemployment rate for people with STEM degrees is something like 2% here in the US. So clearly there aren't engineers that are US citizens just sitting around not getting jobs because of H1B visas. Something like 20% of college graduates graduate with degrees in STEM fields here in the US, which is well below many Asian countries. If that number were something like 30% -35%, you would probably see a lot less use of H1B visas to find candidates to fill jobs.

They can't offshore all or even most engineering careers. It also takes a lot of money and company resources to train up an engineer (especially a new one out of college), so we are not as easily disposable or replaceable as workers in some other fields. Employees with H1B visas have to be trained up in the same way, there's no shortcut for experience and working knowledge in engineering. But if worker's in STEM fields are laid off or otherwise find themselves unemployed, I'm also going to guess that the amount of time required to find a replacement job is a lot less than in other fields.

I don't doubt you either. I think it'd depend on industry and function. What industry are you in? Early on I was in telco and then moved to financial. Developers? Engineers?

 

[coldseat]

I don't doubt you either. I think it'd depend on industry and function. What industry are you in? Early on I was in telco and then moved to financial. Developers? Engineers?

I'm a structural engineer and work in bridge/transportation design for a large national consulting firm. We used to be a mid-size local firm here in San Antonio, before our owner sold the company to the larger national firm at the beginning of last year. They bought us because because our focus is in structural engineering and they were looking to add that to their portfolio as they expanded into Texas. Most of my work is with TXDOT projects, but we do all kinds of structural designs. Working in a traditional STEM field is likely why my perspective differs from yours. I can see how tech and financial sectors would be different.

The national firm that bought us out is a 100% ESOP owned firm, which I think is also a very different environment than either a traditional private firm owned by an owner or public firm controlled by investors. Even though I liked working for our midsize privately owned firm for 20+ years, since our boss was always fair and accessible, I think it's a much better ownership model than either of the other two. I think the business landscape would be much better if more companies here in the US had a 100% ESOP ownership model.

 

[SystemShock]

I'm a structural engineer and work in bridge/transportation design for a large national consulting firm. We used to be a mid-size local firm here in San Antonio, before our owner sold the company to the larger national firm at the beginning of last year. They bought us because because our focus is in structural engineering and they were looking to add that to their portfolio as they expanded into Texas. Most of my work is with TXDOT projects, but we do all kinds of structural designs. Working in a traditional STEM field is likely why my perspective differs from yours. I can see how tech and financial sectors would be different.

The national firm that bought us out is a 100% ESOP owned firm, which I think is also a very different environment than either a traditional private firm owned by an owner or public firm controlled by investors. Even though I liked working for our midsize privately owned firm for 20+ years, since our boss was always fair and accessible, I think it's a much better ownership model than either of the other two. I think the business landscape would be much better if more companies here in the US had a 100% ESOP ownership model.

Oh! So you are a real engineer, unlike us professional computer geeks

 

[coldseat]

Oh! So you are a real engineer, unlike us professional computer geeks

I mean. I didn't want to say that, but you did so ..... .

I visited my parents in Harvey over the Christmas holidays and in talking to them was reflecting on why I chose to study civil/structural engineering at LSU back in the 90's. Computer Science/Industrial Engineering was all the rage then and the promise of the future. But I remember growing up in the 80's watching the building of the twin span of the Crescent City Connection in NO and was in awe. Having an aptitude for math at the time, I kind of felt that would be a really cool to be a bridge engineer and design something like that one day. It kind of stuck with me. I've never gotten a chance to work on the design for a bridge that massive and I don't specialize in steel design, but I've had a couple of interesting projects along the way.

On another side note, on my way to NO driving over the Horace Wilkinson Bridge in Baton Rouge and I had to wait in traffic for 40 minutes to get across. That bridge is always a mess. When I worked at LaDOTD over 23+ years ago, we used to talk about how that bridge needed to have a twin span added (4-lanes is not enough) and how the whole merger with IH-110 coming off the bridge needed to be redesigned. Almost a quarter century later and nothing has been done. A true failure of the political leadership at the state and congressional level considering all the money that's been appropriated for other big projects around the country.

 

[samiam5211]

Congress has wasted no time moving on the immigration agenda - the House today passed the Laken Riley Act, sending it to the Senate. The act changes federal immigration law in that it requires DHS to take custody and detain illegal immigrants who are arrested by local authorities for various theft-related crimes. This is based on the Laken Riley case where a UGA student murdered by an illegal immigrant who was learned to have been previously arrested by local authorities for shoplifting - but DHS did not issue a detainer.

It will be interesting to see how many aliens this brings into DHS custody over the course of a year.

House passes Laken Riley Act to amp up border enforcement and put pressure on Democrats

The bill, named for a nursing school student who was murdered by a man in the country illegally, passed the House last year. The new Republican-controlled Senate is expected to take it up Friday.

www.nbcnews.com

Even if DHS had issued a detainer, he would have been released pending a removal hearing which would have been about 3 years away.

It's not like we can keep the millions of people pending removal hearings in custody for the years it will take for them to get a court date.

Even if he had been previously removed and eligible for expedited removal, he likely would have claimed credible fear, and he would have still been on the streets when he murdered Laken.

 

[horse2H5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees :

The contracting states shall not​

...​

• impose penalties on refugees who entered illegally in search of asylum if they present themselves without delay (Article 31), which is commonly interpreted to mean that their unlawful entry and presence ought not to be prosecuted at all

It's explicitly recognised internationally that breaking laws, specifically, entering a country illegally, may be necessary and should not be prosecuted. This should be obvious; refugees may be unable to obtain the papers and access the resources necessary to travel legally.

There is also no merit to considering the dangers of travel and the morality of doing so without also considering the dangers of the circumstances being left.

It is also not required that refugees seek refuge in the nearest ostensibly safe country; this should also be obvious, as this would place undue burden on the nearest nations, as well as being inefficient as refugees may have relatives and friends they can call upon to support them and aid integration in more distance nations.

And people who do not know any of these things should probably sit down and do some reading before trying to take part in a debate about the subject.

Would I be allowed to enter the UK without a Passport? Would I be able to get a job and rent a house for as long as I desire? Would I be able to receive government assistance in the UK?

 

[bird]

Would I be allowed to enter the UK without a Passport? Would I be able to get a job and rent a house for as long as I desire? Would I be able to receive government assistance in the UK?

Irrelevant. The RW has never had any interest in resolving this beyond stirring up the base. Looks like it worked.

 

[horse2H5]

Irrelevant. The RW has never had any interest in resolving this beyond stirring up the base. Looks like it worked.

Irrelevant to you? It is not irrelevant to me, hence the reason I asked an honest question. This poster, along with others have first hand knowledge of what is happening abroad. I want to make sure that I understand the facts of the circumstance in order to have an honest discussion.

 

[Dragon]

Irrelevant to you? It is not irrelevant to me, hence the reason I asked an honest question. This poster, along with others have first hand knowledge of what is happening abroad. I want to make sure that I understand the facts of the circumstance in order to have an honest discussion.

Asylum seekers in the EU have the right to have their claims processed. During this process, they are provided with a place to sleep and money for food if they are not staying in a facility that offers meals. They can also participate in language classes and courses about how society functions (similar to American government or history classes). While participation in these programs does not guarantee asylum, it helps expedite integration for those granted the right to stay.

Most asylum seekers are not detained. Only individuals who have broken the law are held in secure facilities while awaiting deportation.

An exception to the general process is Ukrainian refugees, who have a special status. Upon arrival, they are given immediate assistance in finding accommodations and jobs. Denmark has been particularly successful in this regard, with most Ukrainian refugees settling into permanent housing and employment within a few months.

 

[horse2H5]

Asylum seekers in the EU have the right to have their claims processed. During this process, they are provided with a place to sleep and money for food if they are not staying in a facility that offers meals. They can also participate in language classes and courses about how society functions (similar to American government or history classes). While participation in these programs does not guarantee asylum, it helps expedite integration for those granted the right to stay.

Most asylum seekers are not detained. Only individuals who have broken the law are held in secure facilities while awaiting deportation.

An exception to the general process is Ukrainian refugees, who have a special status. Upon arrival, they are given immediate assistance in finding accommodations and jobs. Denmark has been particularly successful in this regard, with most Ukrainian refugees settling into permanent housing and employment within a few months.

Thanks for info. But that wasn't my question. Would I, an American citizen, be able to enter your country without a pass port, rent a house, get a job and work for as long as I desire?