Trump loyalists in Congress to challenge Electoral College results in Jan. 6 joint session (Update: Insurrectionists storm Congress)(And now what?) (1 Viewer)

[superchuck500]

I guess it's time to start a thread for this. We know that at least 140 members of Congress have pledged to join the objection. Under federal law, if at least one member of each house (HOR and Senate) objects, each house will adjourn the joint session for their own session (limited at two hours) to take up the objection. If both houses pass a resolution objecting to the EC result, further action can take place. If both houses do not (i.e. if one or neither passes a resolution), the objection is powerless and the college result is certified.

Clearly this is political theater as we know such a resolution will not pass the House, and there's good reason to think it wouldn't pass the Senate either (with or without the two senators from Georgia). The January 6 joint session is traditionally a ceremonial one. This one will not be.

Many traditional pillars of Republican support have condemned the plan as futile and damaging. Certainly the Trump loyalists don't care - and many are likely doing it for fundraising purposes or to carry weight with the fraction of their constituencies that think this is a good idea.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32717.pdf

 

[superchuck500]

Trump apparently is telling people that he expects to be "reinstated" . . . by August, according to NYT White House reporter Maggie Haberman.

In this National Review piece, Charles Cooke appeals to conservatives to reject Trump's play on continuing to attack the 2020 election results. Spoiler alert - they aren't going to listen.

Donald Trump Belief That “Reinstatement” to Office Coming: Delusional | National Review

 

[superchuck500]

 

[faceman]

Its gonna be even more epic when Trump loses the 2024 election. His ego will not allow him not to run, and it'll ruin the Republican party (more so than now)

Trump is finished politically. Republicans would be stupid to nominate him again. They are, but that's another topic. If and that's a big if, they nominate a moderate who's willing to reach across the aisle and work with Democrats, they can still win the presidency in 2024.

 

[bird]

This is about the delegitimization of democracy, period. Conservatism despises democracy. The fear of redistribution is real in the minds of conservatives. The founders feared democracy for precisely that reason.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Republicans would be stupid to nominate him

Isn’t that what we all thought in 2016?

 

[JRad]

Trump is finished politically. Republicans would be stupid to nominate him again. They are, but that's another topic. If and that's a big if, they nominate a moderate who's willing to reach across the aisle and work with Democrats, they can still win the presidency in 2024.

I both agree and disagree. I think 3ish years of "cool down" will lighten that "rah rah MAGA" thing outside of his super duper fanclub - so I agree with you he's finished politically. But, I think it's going to take a really big change for Republicans to not nominate him again, they're really all-in on that base.

 

[coldseat]

I both agree and disagree. I think 3ish years of "cool down" will lighten that "rah rah MAGA" thing outside of his super duper fanclub - so I agree with you he's finished politically. But, I think it's going to take a really big change for Republicans to not nominate him again, they're really all-in on that base.

I'm just hoping he dies within the next 4 years. A heart attack has to be around the corner.

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

Trump is finished politically. Republicans would be stupid to nominate him again. They are, but that's another topic. If and that's a big if, they nominate a moderate who's willing to reach across the aisle and work with Democrats, they can still win the presidency in 2024.

problem is. if he wins the primary, they have to nominate him. if they.didn't, the GPP would crumble at that exact moment..

 

[superchuck500]

problem is. if he wins the primary, they have to nominate him. if they.didn't, the GPP would crumble at that exact moment..

And the primaries are run by the state party committees. I don't know if y'all been paying attention to the state GOP Trumpers but they're more bat shirt than the federal ones.

 

[Optimus Prime]

I do wonder if he’d declare he’s running as soon as he’s able to maximize fund raising

or play coy and string it along and try to milk the drama

hopefully he’ll be neck deep in legal woes by then

 

[MT15]

Trump is finished politically. Republicans would be stupid to nominate him again. They are, but that's another topic. If and that's a big if, they nominate a moderate who's willing to reach across the aisle and work with Democrats, they can still win the presidency in 2024.

I agree with everything here except the first sentence. Trump has total control over the Republican Party now. The RNC and almost all the state GOP organizations are full on for Trump. Trump is a lot of things but ruthless and punitive are pretty high on the list. He purged the party apparatus of anyone who won’t worship the ground he walks on.

If he wants to run, they won’t be able to stop him. I doubt the democrats have the nerve to indict him, which would be one way to stop him.

I am particularly worried that if he does run, the GOP will have done enough damage in key states that he just might win. Or come close enough that they can use their new laws to sway the election his way. As chuck said, these state Republicans are bat shirt crazy.

 

[JRad]

I do wonder if he’d declare he’s running as soon as he’s able to maximize fund raising

or play coy and string it along and try to milk the drama

hopefully he’ll be neck deep in legal woes by then

I believe he strung it way out in 2015? I could see him doing that again, and it’d really mess with the rest of the field. Do you want to be the first pro Trump candidate to declare you’re running before he does? Knowing you full well may have to back out?
I heard Pence is making some rounds, but that dude’s goose is cooked in the current state of the GOP.

 

[DaveXA]

Isn’t that what we all thought in 2016?

Yeah, exactly what I thought. Spoke with one of the few Trumper friends I have tonight. She was saying she missed Trump.

 

[Saintman2884]

I'm just hoping he dies within the next 4 years. A heart attack has to be around the corner.

That would be the most favorable outcome, honestly, for all parties and most Americans, regardless of political affiliations. I know I'm in the minority here in saying this, but it wouldn't surprise me if House and Senate Republicans, privately amongst themselves, hope he dies of a heart attack or suffers a debilitating stroke which shuts him up for good even if he lives, and even if most of them outwardly come across as the avowed, stupid-sounding MAGA type imaginable, if he were made politically toxic, ie. convicted of financial crimes in NY(which he might, but he also might throw some or most of his family members under the bus, justifying it "as great, powerful families make sacrifices when necessary" Jared Kushner won't go along until Trump promises him some quid pro quo money for jail time served and perhaps a pardon if Trump somehow gets back in", he's sneaky that way, or maybe he won't).

I'm amazed honestly, Trump hasn't had a heart attack or at least a TIA(other then what may/may not have occured at Walter Reed in that "health emergency" in 2019 that a reporter broke last year and Trump replied he didnt have a stroke, when in reality nobody was asking that question?, therefore also confirming, the story had serious legitimacy).
Because despite some irrational fear-mongering from certain sections of the press, what other major GOP current senator, governor, former VP, congressmen has even 40% of the same charisma, charm, and ability to wade through, face-down multiple lawsuits that would destroy even the most slimmiest, dishonest yet politically savvy Republican lawmaker.

Tom Cotton comes across as an authoritian and maybe he's more intelligent, and focused then Trump but he lacks the same charisma, too brash, shrill, comes across as too confrontational and in-your-face then Trump does and is unapologetic about it to too many of the wrong people.

Former Indiana Gov. and Trump VP Pence might end up being the GOP's best presidential shot in 2024. He's more of a W-clone, except he's more conservative then he was and his personality doesn't make him for him being as decisive as Trump was,simply because Pence probably would obey the law and follow the Constitution more often then not.

If Trump has a heart attack, a stroke and dies or gets seriously indicted, convicted and put in prison, Pence is IMHO, the GOP's official 2024 POTUS. The official MAGA-types won't like him and perhaps some of the more mainstream GOP Trumpers won't support him immediately or until later on, but without Trump, he's the best, most realistic shot they have.

 

[Saintman2884]

I'm no 1A expert, but I think whatever Flynn's background, @B4YOU is correct in saying the Myanmar coup comment doesn't incite "imminent lawless action," and that a better example would be Trump's 1/6 speech where he said to an angry crowd something like "if you don't fight you're not gonna have a country" and the crowd immediately left that speech and committed sedition. Flynn's comments don't seem to meet the "imminence" requirement because the time frame of any lawless action they call for is not really defined.

Flynn is a traitor who deserves prison (as I've said on this board for many months), but he's almost certainly not going to be prosecuted for the Myanmar comments, nor should he be (for that). 1A doesn't appear to prevent the military from punishing Flynn in a non-criminal way -- that's where his military background really matters in all of this.

All that said, if you know anything at all about Michael Flynn, you know he's capable of seriously advocating for a military style coup to install Trump. Flynn envisions -- among other grifts -- making untold millions by being the point person for a massive US / middle east / Russian nuclear deal, something he can most easily accomplish with a corrupt anti-democratic authoritarian in power (all of the non-US countries to the prospective nuclear deal currently have this in common). He's demonstrated a willingness to do whatever is necessary to accomplish that. I have to think he's still on the FBI's radar for that reason. We can't write off the notion of an August / fall coup attempt as a non-serious conspiracy theory. I don't think they're joking at all.

The military, especially the high-ranking Pentagon generals and NCO's, didnt take some "loyalty until death, blood oath" to Trump similar to Wehrmacht generals ordered their troops to do after Hitler actually reluctantly went ahead and killed one of his best,.closest friends, SA (Brown shirt) leader Ernst Rohm on the flimsiest of charges alleging Rohm and his homosexual lover, (and SA second-in-command) were attempting another putsch, due to Hitler and Nazis not enacting some of the more socialist economic programs they'd pushed and fought so hard for for over a decade after Hitler's first failed Beer Hall Putsch in 1923. Hitler knew about Rohm's homosexuality and didnt give two shirts but SS head Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, more fanatical Nazi idealogues and Prussian German military aristocrats werent to give unflavering !oyalty and support to a man who couldn't control malcontents in his own party.

Trump doesn't have nearly same kind of that support from among the military. He, surprisingly, never tried or attempted to cultivate this supposed "deep, symbiotic bond" or brotherhood autocrats tend very hard to build up to remain in power. Unless I'm missing something, or I overlooked and didnt read deeper during Trump's presidency, the MSM never seriously insinuated he shared a deep bond, in fact Trump was always bashing and insulting them, especially veterans who fought in American conflicts overseas during the 20th century. Sure, Trump appointed a few high-ranking generals and there still there, but there's as many currently active-duty high-ranking US generals that oppose(likely many more) then those who support/supported him. Proud Boys, Boogaloos, Oath Keepers same far-right conspiracy groups don't have the element of surprise anymore they did on Jan. 6. when their "chaos is a ladder" moment of opportunity occurred just right down the street from where Congress was authenticating the ECC votes. It failed and they won't get that moment, again. Sorry, not with their motley band of militias, loudmouths and bad-boy bikers with Gen. Flynn leading the charge. Flynn made that comment because he sincerely believed (and the Q'Anon organizers did as well) that the event was entirely private and nothing inflammatory he said there would leak out). When it did, if Flynn was really being hardcore Trump zealot, he would've doubled down, like MGT and acknowledged it, daring the FBI, local or federal law enforcements to prosecute him? The fact that he tried to pretend we're stupid and argue he didnt, proves he doesn't want the cat out the bag or that he likely believes the conditions for another Jan. 6 insurrection are even close to lining up for him to even consider slithering out from whatever rock he's hiding under to decide in supporting it.

 

[bird]

The problem lies with the so-called laboratories of democracy. State legislatures and even local legislatures are fertile breeding grounds for Trumpism. Since the military in the aggregate has chosen to maintain their oath what plays out as long as it plays out “legally” in the states can continue Trumpism. I would also be willing to wager that there are plenty in the military all throughout the ranks who would happily side with Trumpism when push came to shove.

The key is if or when the breaking point occurs. Another January 6 is not the point. The point is the small, quasi-spontaneous uprisings on the local and state level.

Trumpism is a pathogen which mutated from 160+ years of racism, class warfare and cleaving to exceptionalist Theomythology. The screaming about indoctrination today by the Reich Wing is the backlash to the exposure of conservative indoctrination that has gone on for decades including rugged individualism, American exceptionalism and ”The Lost Cause”.

Patriotism is not love of country here. It is a form of paranoia because it is not rooted in improving the country and thereby the lives of the people but in a static snapshot of “a civilization gone with the wind.”

 

[DaveXA]

This is about the delegitimization of democracy, period. Conservatism despises democracy. The fear of redistribution is real in the minds of conservatives. The founders feared democracy for precisely that reason.

While I understand your frustration with Trumpers and their ilk, they aren't representative of conservatives. I'd argue they aren't conservatives at all. Fascists and followers of dear leader-daddy Trump, yeah, but hardly conservative.

I mostly lean conservative (note, I don't say Republican, because...until they disavow Trump, I have no interest in the party), but your comments flies in the face of my world views. So, from my point of view, I don’t despise democracy and I have zero fear of redistribution. If anything, I encourage it. The question to me is what's the best way to get there. But that's a whole other discussion.

 

[superchuck500]

The problem lies with the so-called laboratories of democracy. State legislatures and even local legislatures are fertile breeding grounds for Trumpism. Since the military in the aggregate has chosen to maintain their oath what plays out as long as it plays out “legally” in the states can continue Trumpism. I would also be willing to wager that there are plenty in the military all throughout the ranks who would happily side with Trumpism when push came to shove.

The key is if or when the breaking point occurs. Another January 6 is not the point. The point is the small, quasi-spontaneous uprisings on the local and state level.

Trumpism is a pathogen which mutated from 160+ years of racism, class warfare and cleaving to exceptionalist Theomythology. The screaming about indoctrination today by the Reich Wing is the backlash to the exposure of conservative indoctrination that has gone on for decades including rugged individualism, American exceptionalism and ”The Lost Cause”.

Patriotism is not love of country here. It is a form of paranoia because it is not rooted in improving the country and thereby the lives of the people but in a static snapshot of “a civilization gone with the wind.”

Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. Trumpism is new episode of populism - it has all of the markers of populism (perception of 'grass roots' ordinary people setting the agenda, disdain of institution, etc.) with strong themes of nationalism and even Christian-nationalism.

Populism, in episodes that rise and fade, can be good for democracy - it can rebalance access and service in the nation's power structure. But it isn't intrinsically good, it has elements that can be destructive, especially when used for objectives that are, themselves, anti-democratic. And that's what's particularly problematic about this current populism, Trumpism, is that it co-opts strong themes of nationalism and Christian-nationalism to posit that their view of America is the only legitimate view, and those who don't share it are un-American, treasonous, and criminal. The objective isn't improving democracy, it is dismantling it. They don't just mean these things rhetorically, many Trumpists genuinely believe that those in American politics who don't share their view should be jailed or killed, and they're willing to sacrifice pillars of the American form of democracy and justice . . . because they don't really care about them. This easily morphs into authoritarianism that seeks to remove opposition in the belief that theirs is the only true Americanism, in the eyes of God. And that's basically fascism.

Not all populists are fascists nor does the trajectory of all populist movements, if unchecked, lead to fascism. But this one certainly has that look.