Supreme Court rules prayer led by coach is A-OK (1 Viewer)

[V Chip]

Supreme Court rules for former coach in public school prayer case

Former coach Joseph Kennedy argued that the Bremerton School District in Washington state violated his religious freedom by telling him he couldn’t pray on the field after games.

www.nbcnews.com

Surprised this one wasn’t posted yet; in another precedent-ignoring decision, the SC ruled 6-3 that prayer led by coach after football games is not an establishment or endorsement of religion.

 

[bird]

Did he force them to pray? Do we force the national anthem or can players respectfully kneel or stay in the locker room?

If someone didn't want to pray and he forced them in anyway, you have a point. If it was voluntary and the kids are not forced, I don't see a problem regardless of what God they are praying too.

You don’t see, period.

Google peer pressure.

 

[bird]

The right is not the left. We are not bigots.

The left is not the right. We are not bigots.

Fixed it for you.

 

[bdb13]

Just to tie everything together here LOL.. It's actually logically inconsistent in my view for one to simultaneously support the Florida "don't say gay" law and also support this and the broad implications we're talking about..

It's logically inconsistent unless one's willing to admit that they're okay with the prayer case but not okay with my 'God doesn't exist' example. And at that point they're tacitly admitting that for them it's all really just theocratic in nature.

 

[Saintamaniac]

The right is not the left. We are not bigots.

The right has bigot tendencies that they embrace more often than not so yeah......bigots.

 

[bird]

I have heard this and I just don't understand it. Can you explain?

Really?

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Why? Why is praying before, during or after a game is so bad?

It's not church, it's football. It isn't a Christian football game, it's a public high school game. Do Christians tackle one way and non-Christians another? It's a team. Christianity has no place there except privately. No religion has a place there except privately. How is it you don't get that?

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

General Law - Part I, Title XII, Chapter 71, Section 47

malegislature.gov

​

Commonwealth of Massachusetts​

"Section 47: Athletic programs; school organizations; student activity accounts​

Section 47. The committee may supervise and control all athletic and other organizations composed of public school pupils and bearing the school name or organized in connection therewith. It may directly or through an authorized representative determine under what conditions the same may compete with similar organizations in other schools. Expenditures by the committee for the organization and conduct of physical education, athletics, sports, games and play, for providing proper apparatus, equipment, supplies, athletic wearing apparel, including appropriate souvenir garments and trophies, and facilities for the same in the buildings, yards and playgrounds under the control of the committee, or upon any other land which it may have the right or privilege to use for this purpose, and for the employment of experienced athletic directors to supervise said physical education, athletics, sports, games and play, shall be deemed to be for a school purpose. Expenditures by the committee for making special awards to pupils who have performed meritoriously in the fields of art, debating, distributive education, music, science, social studies or languages shall also be deemed to be for a school purpose. Cities and towns may appropriate for the employment of coaches to supervise in public schools physical education, athletics, sports, games and play, and for the transportation and expenses of public school athletic teams, coaches, cheerleaders, bands and any other groups composed of public school pupils which bear the school name and are under the control of the school committee, within and without the commonwealth, to places where athletic contests or physical education, sports, games, play, musical festivals, competition or other events are held, and for the purchase of band and cheerleaders' uniforms and musical instruments for the members of bands composed of public school pupils and bearing the school name and under the control of the school committee. All receipts by the committee in connection with the conduct of activities provided for under this section or any other activity not expressly provided for in this chapter but sponsored by the school committee in which participation is contingent upon the payment of a fee by the participant, shall be deposited with the treasurer of such town or, in cases where the town is a member of a regional school district, with the treasurer of such district and held as a separate account and expended by said school committee without further appropriation, notwithstanding the provisions of section fifty-three of chapter forty-four. No moneys may be expended from an appropriation or from the separate fund authorized by this section except upon the approval of the school committee, or of the selectmen in towns and of mayors in cities, for travel to other states. ....................................."

 

[V Chip]

Why? Why is praying before, during or after a game is so bad?

It's not. Any individual can pray all they want to.

When it is a government employee leading the prayers, though, that becomes an implied coercion. If a Satanist principal/coach/whatever school official led a prayer to Satan before, during, or after a game, would you honestly be OK with that?

It's amazingly illogical that the right would be OK with prayer to any god(s) before/during/after a game, but freak the eff out if a teacher mentions that they are homosexual or teaches about real American History that the right disagrees with and then pass numerous laws preventing that, and there is a HUGE difference between the former and the latter.

 

[V Chip]

You are correct. Do you think a Jewish person or a Muslim person has never said a prayer before games? I have seen them with my own eyes and I gave them the respect entitled to someone practicing their faith in this country. Prayer is a wonderful thing.
You guys think that the right is racist like the left. We are not. We actually want religious liberty for all Americans, regardless of what God you pray too. That goes for guns too. The more American exercising their 2nd amendment rights is a great thing and is encouraged by the right.

BS. There have been more laws drafted/passed/enacted by the right targeting specific religions that aren't Christianity than there have been laws by the left targeting *any* religion.

 

[V Chip]

If someone didn't want to pray and he forced them in anyway, you have a point. If it was voluntary and the kids are not forced, I don't see a problem regardless of what God they are praying too.

The Supreme Court history disagrees with you, ruling numerous times before this precedent-ignoring ruling that prayer led by school administrators/employees at school events is inherently coercive.

 

[bdb13]

The Supreme Court history disagrees with you, ruling numerous times before this precedent-ignoring ruling that prayer led by school administrators/employees at school events is inherently coercive.

What's the coach going to do if a player doesn't listen to him when asked to assemble?

Players are punished when they don't listen to the coach in that scenario, right?

It's obviously and inherently coercive given that the football coach is in a position of power over these school-aged kids.

 

[V Chip]

What's the coach going to do if a player doesn't listen to him in and assemble?

Players are generally punished when they don't listen to the coach in that scenario.

It's obviously and inherently coercive given that the football coach is in a position of power over these school-aged kids.

And there were multiple students who did admit to feeling pressured in this specific case.

"Indeed, the District later heard from players’ parents that their children felt “compelled to participate.”"

After the coach went to the media about it, when he started his postgame prayer, a bunch of supporters rushed the field to join him, knocking over several members of the band in the process.

"And he held more postgame prayers on the 50-yard line, with students and community members rushing the field to join him, knocking over members of the marching band."

There's a lot more in the docket document that shows how Kennedy just decided to do what he wanted to do anyway after initially complying for a few weeks.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21-418/204295/20211207122626202_21-418%20BIO%20final.pdf

 

[Farb]

I don't understand how that makes sense or is relevant to this?


The players are forced to assemble and listen to him in the same way that I would assemble and force my players/your child to hear from me that God doesn't exist.

Yes the kids could plug their ears while I am saying that to them but that's incorrectly putting the onus on the children to disregard something that I shouldn't be saying to them in the first place.

I think you do actually.

It is common, especially on the high school level to 'take a knee' and gather around the head coach before and after a game. Once that happened and he addressed the team, were they forced to stay for prayer? Could a jewish player get up and leave and go do his own thing? That is point. If the muslim and jewish players stay for the prayer, is that not on them, they are free to go? Your point appears to be that this coach deserves his right to free religion to be trampled because someone of another faith or not faith might be offended but at the time is worried about offending the coach who is wanting to pray to his God. Do you not see how circular that logic is?

If you want to pray to the Christian God, you can stay. If you want to pray to Allah or whatever, you are free to leave and pray to your God. Or, you can ask the others to join in on your prayer.

I remember one time when a teammate of mine, had his mother pass away while we were on an away game. He was Muslim ( I think, it was 25 years ago) and he wanted to stay with the team for the game. The coaches lined him up on a flight right after the game but he wanted to stay. Pregame, the coach asked him if he wanted to say anything. We all 'took a knee' and he said some prayer for his mom, obviously a Muslim prayer that I did not understand. Do you know what happened? Everyone bowed out heads and prayed along with him. I say all that to say that it really tends to be only the left that has issue with religion (any religion). The real question is why.

 

[SystemShock]

I have heard this and I just don't understand it. Can you explain?

Sharia means religious law.

Actually, the term sharia law is redundant.

 

[Farb]

The Florida don’t say gay law. Look it up, again. I know we have explained to you a million times. Don’t bother with “it doesn’t say that” argument. I’ve heard it. As explained to you a number of times, it doesn’t have to say “don’t say gay” to have that exact effect.

You mean this one, the one that deal with K thru 3rd grade:
https://floridianpress.com/2022/03/new-poll-64-of-americans-support-dont-say-gay-bill/
The individuals were presented with the highly criticized portion of the legislation that earned HB 1557 the infamous title, "The Don't Say Gay Bill." Respondents across racial and political lines appear to support the ban, and at any grade level beyond K-3 as well.

Among the political groups represented, 69% of Republicans, 62% of Democrats, and 57% of Independents, parents seemed to support the bill at a higher rate than the national average (68%).


I am curious, have you actually read the bill, or just go by media talking points?

 

[Farb]

The Florida don’t say gay law. Look it up, again. I know we have explained to you a million times. Don’t bother with “it doesn’t say that” argument. I’ve heard it. As explained to you a number of times, it doesn’t have to say “don’t say gay” to have that exact effect.

Also, what books are being banned and defined banned so we have an actual conversation.

Will you agree to this definition: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/banned
banned; banning; bans

Definition of ban​

(Entry 1 of 3)
transitive verb
1: to prohibit especially by legal meansban discriminationIs smoking banned in all public buildings?also : to prohibit the use, performance, or distribution ofban a bookban a pesticide
2: BAR entry 2 sense 3cbanned from the U.N.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

You guys think that the right is racist like the left. We are not. We actually want religious liberty for all Americans, regardless of what God you pray too. That goes for guns too. The more American exercising their 2nd amendment rights is a great thing and is encouraged by the right.

This is a lie. There are religions where abortion is explicitly permitted, yet you cheer when it is outlawed. If religious liberty is this important, why do you want to prevent others from practicing their religion?

 

[Farb]

Teachers who are married to a same sex partner are being told they must remove all family pictures from their classroom. They are told they must remove rainbow stickers. Their families are essentially being erased. To pretend otherwise is just part of the cruelty that is the whole point of these laws.

I assume you have proof of this being done?