Supreme Court rules prayer led by coach is A-OK (1 Viewer)

[V Chip]

Supreme Court rules for former coach in public school prayer case

Former coach Joseph Kennedy argued that the Bremerton School District in Washington state violated his religious freedom by telling him he couldn’t pray on the field after games.

www.nbcnews.com

Surprised this one wasn’t posted yet; in another precedent-ignoring decision, the SC ruled 6-3 that prayer led by coach after football games is not an establishment or endorsement of religion.

 

[Farb]

He was gathering them specifically for the purpose of the prayer and it was not silent and to oneself.

I don't think you've answered me directly but would you be A-OK with me coaching your child's team and during practices and games gathering the team together specifically to tell them "God does not exist"? (And if he/they don't assemble as I wish for my little "there is no God" spiel I'll just run their arses into the ground)

Come on man I don't believe for a second that you wouldn't want my job if your kid was on that team and that's how I was operating. I can't even reconcile that. Wouldn't make sense based upon your posting history.

Which is to say this shirt's then all just a matter of perspective based upon what YOU find to be acceptable or unacceptable rather than being based upon a consistent political ideology.

Like I said the other day (it was actually kind of prophetic, right?), I didn't think this particular court would rule the same as previous courts in regards to things like prayer in school and that was due to the fact that the conservative justices on the Court are very religious and that was a major part of the criteria as to why they were chosen in the first place.

And when one's worldview is filtered through the lens of religion it makes it easy to justify using the political power they possess to tilt the world towards their skewed points of view.

I wouldn't be thrilled but I would not have a problem with a someone telling my kid that God doesn't exist. He lives in this world and he is told that daily in society. He is smart enough to write you off as a loon and to keep being faithful to his religion.

Your entire hypothetical depends on if there is coercion. I don't think there is or was.

Did he 'run them into the ground' if they didn't come and take a knee for prayer? Are you 100% sure that he gathered his team just for prayer or for the usual take a knee talk and end it prayer? If he didn't allow those that wanted to leave to leave or punish them if they did, then you and I agree. However, I don't think that happened if this case made it all the way to SCOTUS.

 

[samiam5211]

What if I told that Jefferson actually intended the 'separation of church of state' to actually mean that the state has no power to interfering with the church and not the other way around? His actual words in the letter were 'wall of separation' between the 2 in his explanation on what the 1st Adm meant to a group of Baptists.

You can't have one without the other.

Mixing state and church is just as dangerous for the church as it is for the state. The founders understood this.

Current day religious folks have forgotten. Once you have a religious dictator, the dictator has control over the religion. It doesn't happen overnight.

 

[bdb13]

I would say that's a skewed point of view.

Eh.. skewed meaning incomplete point of view, to be more specific.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Again, how is the coach enforcing a belief system?

What if I told that Jefferson actually intended the 'separation of church of state' to actually mean that the state has no power to interfering with the church and not the other way around? His actual words in the letter were 'wall of separation' between the 2 in his explanation on what the 1st Adm meant to a group of Baptists.

You're suggesting Jefferson spoke of a wall of separation that didn't separate things? lmao

 

[cuddlemonkey]

You really do not retain anything we discuss.

Some religions preform ritual killings, child marriages, arranged marriages, polygamy. So, by your logic, all of those have to allowed if we are to allow full freedom of religion? Can there not be limits enforced by the society on what they, the society, deem extreme? Yes, since the beginning of time. So your point is silly.
I do love when the anti-religion left always tries to argue a point using religion.

We have secular reasons for outlawing those things. I would ask you for the secular reasoning for taking away a woman's autonomy, but you don't forking have one.

 

[V Chip]

Can you show me those laws? This actual opinion addresses this very thing, so this proves you have not read it the opinion only the media talking points. Don't forget the other talking point, someone, somewhere will die because of this. It will be a blood bath of minority people because Religion or something.

Anti-Sharia law bills in the United States

Since 2010, 201 anti-Sharia law bills have been introduced in 43 states. In 2017 alone, 14 states introduced an anti-Sharia law bill, with Texas and Arkansas enacting the legislation.

www.splcenter.org

Tracking Anti-Muslim Legislation Across the U.S.

www.splcenter.org

The "Ground Zero" Mosque: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/08/how-the-ground-zero-mosque-meltdown-set-the-table-for-trump
(And many other places in the US where mosques were restricted by city councils and the like.)

Trump's "Muslim travel ban": https://immigrationhistory.org/item/muslim-travel-ban/

Those are a few off the top of my head. I also know there have been attempts to restrict Santeria, Wicca/Paganism, wearing hajib/burqa/"face coverings", and others.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I wouldn't be thrilled but I would not have a problem with a someone telling my kid that God doesn't exist. He lives in this world and he is told that daily in society. He is smart enough to write you off as a loon and to keep being faithful to his religion.

Your entire hypothetical depends on if there is coercion. I don't think there is or was.

Did he 'run them into the ground' if they didn't come and take a knee for prayer? Are you 100% sure that he gathered his team just for prayer or for the usual take a knee talk and end it prayer? If he didn't allow those that wanted to leave to leave or punish them if they did, then you and I agree. However, I don't think that happened if this case made it all the way to SCOTUS.

Except that people said that their children felt coerced to join in when they were not comfortable doing so. You're wrong.

 

[Incumbent]

It's easy for somebody to say they wouldn't care if a muslim coach proselytized and prayed in front of their child because that scenario is far less likely to ever happen in many places throughout the country. Expressing acceptance of the unlikely is an easy way to claim to have an open mind.

And that hits on another layer of this decision. If no public educator can lead their students in prayer, hiring decisions are more likely to be primarily merit based. Erode those protections, and now public school administrators in certain regions might be more hesitant to hire a coach who is the wrong "cultural" and "community" fit to protect students from nonchristian exposure. That's only a violation if it can be proven.

 

[bdb13]

I wouldn't be thrilled but I would not have a problem with a someone telling my kid that God doesn't exist. He lives in this world and he is told that daily in society. He is smart enough to write you off as a loon and to keep being faithful to his religion.

Your entire hypothetical depends on if there is coercion. I don't think there is or was.

Did he 'run them into the ground' if they didn't come and take a knee for prayer? Are you 100% sure that he gathered his team just for prayer or for the usual take a knee talk and end it prayer? If he didn't allow those that wanted to leave to leave or punish them if they did, then you and I agree. However, I don't think that happened if this case made it all the way to SCOTUS.

As a player it's drilled into your head from a young age that you're supposed to listen to your coach and do what he tells you to do when you're on the court/field. That's the coach's domain, which makes the relationship inherently coercive to some large extent.

And I'm pretty sure I'd have a problem with a coach or teacher pushing on to my kid that "God doesn't exist" even though I'm personally inclined to believe that that's a true statement. But it's not about what I personally believe or don't believe in regards to that. It's about what's right or wrong based upon our Constitution and the foundational ideal of separation of church and state.
...
Let me go ahead and ask this one then - and I'm not making an argument here against the bill itself - but why is the "don't say gay" bill something you strongly support when your belief is that children are strong enough to deal with these sorts of things and that they're inundated with these sorts of things anyway?

(Figured it out as I was typing this) I guess that's really a major part of the purpose behind the push by the right regarding the attached "groomer" rhetoric and all, huh? It works well as a differentiator with something like this:

"What makes it different? You're talking about having problem with a football coach speaking about the Lord and I'm talking about my six year old kid and the teacher that may very well want to fork him.

And have you looked? That shirt's happening everyday! Of course we had to do something about that."

 

[Optimus Prime]

It's easy for somebody to say they wouldn't care if a muslim coach proselytized and prayed in front of their child because that scenario is far less likely to ever happen in many places throughout the country. Expressing acceptance of the unlikely is an easy way to claim to have an open mind.

And in the event that it does happen, quite a few of those who swear that "they wouldn't care" discover that they actually do care…..a lot

 

[Heathen]

You are correct. Do you think a Jewish person or a Muslim person has never said a prayer before games? I have seen them with my own eyes and I gave them the respect entitled to someone practicing their faith in this country. Prayer is a wonderful thing.

C'mon. You know it's completely different. A prayer before a game for an individual or even a few individuals is MUCH different than a coach or coaches going out on the field after a game and making a display of the dominant religion's prayer practices.

I grew up with the same theocratic influence within a public school in the south and have seen it all over. If a couch got out a prayer mat and the entire school upon leaving the game knew it was a muslim display of faith - there'd be borderline riots and terrorism from the family values crowd. No doubt about it. You show me where the tolerant right has allowed this to happen.

You guys think that the right is racist like the left. We are not. We actually want religious liberty for all Americans, regardless of what God you pray too. That goes for guns too. The more American exercising their 2nd amendment rights is a great thing and is encouraged by the right.

Oh really? I mean...it takes five seconds to do an actual comparison of evidence as to what your party and the 'left' (translation - Democrats).

Compare the right vs. the left in just a few issues and it's elementary that you even begin to argue such a silly point.
Who gerrymanders more / at all along racial lines - past and present? The right
Who has traditionally and even recently demonized minorities, immigrants, etc more? The right
Who wants to ban books about America's history because it hurts their feelings that race is an enormous part of it? The right

You may not like it - but reality is indifferent to 'feelings'. If you want to change that - be my guest. It'd be welcomed.

Glad you brought up guns. Your party also blocks any and every gun safety legislation DESPITE the fact that it wouldn't take one of your guns away, ever. Now I'm not about your right to use high powered weaponry to shoot trash and vermin, but that's where we are as a country. And as someone who identifies as a good bit left of the Democrats - the whole fearmongering from your party about guns is absolutely silly.

Where's the common sense? Not anywhere to be found in today's Republican party, that's for sure.

 

[Sandman]

Also, what books are being banned and defined banned so we have an actual conversation.

Will you agree to this definition: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/banned
banned; banning; bans

Definition of ban​

(Entry 1 of 3)
transitive verb
1: to prohibit especially by legal meansban discriminationIs smoking banned in all public buildings?also : to prohibit the use, performance, or distribution ofban a bookban a pesticide
2: BAR entry 2 sense 3cbanned from the U.N.

Trying to Farb things up here I see. Go back to your post that started this: Parents protesting the prayer need to lighten up because it is a tough world out there.

Farb in the CRT thead:

“IMO, it is good for parents to push back on this garbage. And people wonder why parents are pulling their kids out of the public 'school' system. It is almost as if they don't want parents to know what they are 'teaching' their children. In all fairness though, I have a severe disdain for school boards from my past experiences dealing with that bureaucracy
Should be interesting to see this play out in the courts.”

So when your team protests, that is all good. Basically, your team wins, other team loses. No consistency in your opinion. This is you in a nutshell. Spew garbage, get called out on it, ask for links to divert your hypocrisy, get shown your hypocrisy, say “I got under your skin lib,” high five yourself and proclaim victory. Every. Single. Time.

 

[Lapaz]

You mean what they hear in the culture all day every day? Yeah, I think they will be fine too.
I have a feeling the religious kids will get together and have a group prayer and the atheist kids can gather around a tree or a drag queen or whatever God they want to pray to at that time.

Name a TV program that advocates or elevates atheism in any way? Also, your bigotry showed in this post suggesting kids would gather around a tree or a drag Queen after a game in some form of recognition and thankfulness. You think atheist are also idolotors like most religious people?

Anyway, at least I appreciate that you won’t mind when an atheist tells kids to be proud and that it wasn’t some ferry tale figure that earned the win. However, I suspect the vast majority of Christian’s will be outraged.

 

[Heathen]

You mean what they hear in the culture all day every day? Yeah, I think they will be fine too.
I have a feeling the religious kids will get together and have a group prayer and the atheist kids can gather around a tree or a drag queen or whatever God they want to pray to at that time.

This is so out of reality, it's hard to envision that you were serious when you posted it.
I know some in the crowd like to parrot the 'the world / the culture is against god and our faith' line, but it's simply hogwash.
You're in America. America is one of the most religious nations in the world. Let me know when your group is voted as being 'trusted the least' with holding office, behind Muslims.

Also you don't have to be scared of drag. I'll take you if you want to go see a real performance blee dat

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

Yeah, you get one chance to play HS football, if you’re lucky enough and talented enough. And we know now that the courts specifically won’t back you up. I would say very nearly 100% will shut up and play along. It’s stupid and unChristian of the coach to do that.

I won't disagree that the world is full of fake "Christians" who are pretty un-Christ-like in their actions. But they just say they are "imperfect followers of Christ" and receiver a get-out-of-jail-free card for any and all trangressions. It's almost as if a doctrine like that was designed as a marketing ploy to attract followers!

 

[Lapaz]

You don’t see, period.

Google peer pressure.

It’s peer pressure AND leadership pressure, because it puts you on the good graces of leadership to go along with their beliefs. That coach controls playing time. He could easily reduce it for the kids that don’t join in, but do it in a way that it won’t provoke a lawsuit.

 

[Sandman]

I am curious, have you actually read the bill, or just go by media talking points?

I did. I and others went into detail with you on that subject showing how the language could achieve the “don’t say gay” result. So you either didn’t pay attention back then, or you are Farbing and trying to pretend that whole discussion didn’t happen. Rinse. Repeat. Farb. As I said before, you are a caricature.

 

[Lapaz]

I think you do actually.

It is common, especially on the high school level to 'take a knee' and gather around the head coach before and after a game. Once that happened and he addressed the team, were they forced to stay for prayer? Could a jewish player get up and leave and go do his own thing? That is point. If the muslim and jewish players stay for the prayer, is that not on them, they are free to go? Your point appears to be that this coach deserves his right to free religion to be trampled because someone of another faith or not faith might be offended but at the time is worried about offending the coach who is wanting to pray to his God. Do you not see how circular that logic is?

If you want to pray to the Christian God, you can stay. If you want to pray to Allah or whatever, you are free to leave and pray to your God. Or, you can ask the others to join in on your prayer.

I remember one time when a teammate of mine, had his mother pass away while we were on an away game. He was Muslim ( I think, it was 25 years ago) and he wanted to stay with the team for the game. The coaches lined him up on a flight right after the game but he wanted to stay. Pregame, the coach asked him if he wanted to say anything. We all 'took a knee' and he said some prayer for his mom, obviously a Muslim prayer that I did not understand. Do you know what happened? Everyone bowed out heads and prayed along with him. I say all that to say that it really tends to be only the left that has issue with religion (any religion). The real question is why.

That story about the kid leading a prayer is 100% acceptable, because he is not in a position of authority. It’s a sweet story, but the participation was probably mostly voluntary. Peer pressure may have led some to participate, but nothing but shame was on the line. Not playing time nor being cut.