Should we see the removal of statues like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. (1 Viewer)

Paul

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Christopher Columbus statues coming down predate BLM. Heck, there was an entire episode in season 2 of The Sopranos about it. It's been an issue since the 1950's. Charlottesville is really what sparked the Tear Them Down movement by reigniting the national conversation. The BLM movement just motivated people across the spectrum on both sides of these types of culture war issues.
I could care less about Columbus, but as a child I was taught he discovered America and as a result we had a Hispanic culture. Spain's old Roman name was Hispania. Most towns in South America have statues of Columbus and it is just part of the landscape. The guy has been dead for over five centuries and barking at Columbus is an empty feel good move or virtue signaling.

Columbus may have not been Italian. It is quite possible he was a Spanish Jew, but who cares. There are much bigger fish to fry in the present. How about reducing murder and violence in the cities of America? That is a billion times worse than a statue of a guy that has been dead for over five centuries.
 

Saint by the Bay

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I could care less about Columbus, but as a child I was taught he discovered America and as a result we had a Hispanic culture. Spain's old Roman name was Hispania. Most towns in South America have statues of Columbus and it is just part of the landscape. The guy has been dead for over five centuries and barking at Columbus is an empty feel good move or virtue signaling.

Columbus may have not been Italian. It is quite possible he was a Spanish Jew, but who cares. There are much bigger fish to fry in the present. How about reducing murder and violence in the cities of America? That is a billion times worse than a statue of a guy that has been dead for over five centuries.

I agree with you on the Columbus statues, not a big deal.

As for reducing violence in cities, it has dropped by half since its peak in the early 90's. It's being reduced. For someone that rails on about media narratives, you fall for them quite a bit. The media narrative of out-of-control violence in America's cities is sensationalism. It's at its lowest point since the late 60's because of all the efforts to reduce violent crime in the inner city.

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CoolBrees

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@Paul -

If you haven’t seen indigenous peoples fighting against Columbus Day or the statues of the idiot that couldn’t read a nautical map, you haven’t paid attention.

At all. For like forever

you have this strange tendency to talk out your posterior and state it as fact. Are you hoping no one notices?
 

Paul

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I agree with you on the Columbus statues, not a big deal.

As for reducing violence in cities, it has dropped by half since its peak in the early 90's. It's being reduced. For someone that rails on about media narratives, you fall for them quite a bit. The media narrative of out-of-control violence in America's cities is sensationalism. It's at its lowest point since the late 60's because of all the efforts to reduce violent crime in the inner city.

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I agree the violence had been trending down, but now we have a spike. Hopefully it is just that. Why not go all out and end the violence? How about a Marshall plan for the cities with high crime?
 

Saint by the Bay

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I agree the violence had been trending down, but now we have a spike. Hopefully it is just that. Why not go all out and end the violence? How about a Marshall plan for the cities with high crime?

End violence? That's as pie-in-the-sky as ending racism. Violence has been here since Able stole Cain's toy truck and he brained him for it. We aren't getting rid of violence. It ebbs and flows with the economy. There has been a very slight uptick over the last year. If you think the thing keeping people from some kind of magical violence Marshal Plan is removing statues that is, dare I say it, a strawman argument? ;)
 

Paul

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I agree with you on the Columbus statues, not a big deal.

As for reducing violence in cities, it has dropped by half since its peak in the early 90's. It's being reduced. For someone that rails on about media narratives, you fall for them quite a bit. The media narrative of out-of-control violence in America's cities is sensationalism. It's at its lowest point since the late 60's because of all the efforts to reduce violent crime in the inner city.

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Then care less.

You were taught wrongly.
I agree, but Columbus provoked the arrival of the Conquistadores to Central and South America. This was followed by the importation of slaves from Africa. We had slavery in every single corner of Latin America. Thanks to the Spaniards and the Portuguese. I was also taught about the Vikings, but they had no influence in Latin America.

The reason Columbus was made a hero is because nations need heroes (phony or not). All groups do it.

Why are you guys so hung up on the distant past?
 
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Paul

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End violence? That's as pie-in-the-sky as ending racism. Violence has been here since Able stole Cain's toy truck and he brained him for it. We aren't getting rid of violence. It ebbs and flows with the economy. There has been a very slight uptick over the last year. If you think the thing keeping people from some kind of magical violence Marshal Plan is removing statues that is, dare I say it, a strawman argument? ;)
We need a new paradigm. Whatever the Democrats are doing is not working.

By the way police brutality is also way down when compared to the last decades. Does that mean we ignore the police brutality?
 

Saint by the Bay

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We need a new paradigm. Whatever the Democrats are doing is not working.

By the way police brutality is also way down when compared to the last decades. Does that mean we ignore the police brutality?



Who in the Hell is saying ignore violence? Obviously nobody is ignoring it, it's been cut in freaking half over 3 decades. Somebody is doing something right to accomplish that.
 

Paul

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Who in the Hell is saying ignore violence? Obviously nobody is ignoring it, it's been cut in freaking half over 3 decades. Somebody is doing something right to accomplish that.
The same can be said about police brutality. However, it would be a sin to ignore what cops do to some people.
 

Saint by the Bay

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The same can be said about police brutality. However, it would be a sin to ignore what cops do to some people.

Dude, I think I need more coffee to understand your point sometimes. I am so lost right now.

NOBODY IS IGNORING VIOLENCE. Why do you keep bringing up this ludicrous police brutality comparison? It has nothing to do with this.

Nobody is ignoring urban violence, and nobody is asking it be ignored.
Nobody is ignoring police brutality.
Protesting statues has nothing to do with either.
 

Paul

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Dude, I think I need more coffee to understand your point sometimes. I am so lost right now.

NOBODY IS IGNORING VIOLENCE. Why do you keep bringing up this ludicrous police brutality comparison? It has nothing to do with this.

Nobody is ignoring urban violence, and nobody is asking it be ignored.
Nobody is ignoring police brutality.
Protesting statues has nothing to do with either.
OK, thank you for clarifying your point
 

Farb

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Should not Columbus be viewed as a hero? There is a reason that Spain conquered empires of the Inca/Aztec/Maya with like 200 men. They had lots of native allies because those civilization practiced slavery and human sacrifice and raided and slaughtered the other native civilizations (they did too, they just were not the powerhouse of the area). He also helped bring western civilization to this part of the world.
 

Paul

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Should not Columbus be viewed as a hero? There is a reason that Spain conquered empires of the Inca/Aztec/Maya with like 200 men. They had lots of native allies because those civilization practiced slavery and human sacrifice and raided and slaughtered the other native civilizations (they did too, they just were not the powerhouse of the area). He also helped bring western civilization to this part of the world.
The Incas used to sacrifice children of neighboring tribes at the altar by removing the heart while the kid was awake.
 

Saint by the Bay

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There's certainly a lot of nuance with Columbus and the early settlers. People romanticize the people that were here, but ultimately they were just as savage as the settlers who came. Often times settlers were working with one tribe to commit genocide on another tribe. I'm not sure if society is better served by having heroes we know were not perfect but accept their imperfections or by facing truths that most of them were actually pretty bad dudes, and so were the people they were killing and subjugating because the world back then was simply a savage place.

These situations aren't as simple as folks on either extreme want to think they are.
 

Farb

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There's certainly a lot of nuance with Columbus and the early settlers. People romanticize the people that were here, but ultimately they were just as savage as the settlers who came. Often times settlers were working with one tribe to commit genocide on another tribe. I'm not sure if society is better served by having heroes we know were not perfect but accept their imperfections or by facing truths that most of them were actually pretty bad dudes, and so were the people they were killing and subjugating because the world back then was simply a savage place.

These situations aren't as simple as folks on either extreme want to think they are.
I saw recently one of the on-line Maoist struggle session on line and a dude of Lakota heritage was pissed because Mt. Rushmore was his tribe's 'sacred mountains'. He obviously didn't know what his tribe did to the tribe that was there before his team decided they wanted the area. On top of that, what the other tribe did to the tribe before and so on.
That is why this 'stolen' land narrative is just stupid and unfounded in reality.
 

SaulGoodmanEsq

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Well played and Yes still correct.
Removing statutes of Hitler (assuming anyone would think it's a good idea to erect one in the United States) would merely be virtue signaling? Am I stating your position correctly?

If so then mark me down as a polite 'disagree.' In any event, as to the larger issue of Confederate statutes, I would offer (what is hopefully) the neutral position that the United States should not erect statutes of those who participated in armed rebellion against it.

Is there no irony in Trump supporters dressing themselves in garb that gives the appearance that an American flag vomited on them while simultaneously espousing the virtues of the Confederacy? They are ostensibly 1000% "patriotic" yet are okay with individuals (Confederates) who engaged in activities far worse than mere flag burning. Or perhaps those people want to establish an idea of America that is closer to the Confederacy and thus arguably not actual patriots.


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