Should we see the removal of statues like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. (1 Viewer)

Saintman2884

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The Confederate statues need to go. If they were more ancient I could see an argument, but they are quite recent.

BTW, when the Catholic Popes replaced the Roman Emperors they destroyed many Roman pagan buildings but elected to keep the Roman Coliseum even though it was used to kill Christians. IN sense it was blessing they did not destroy everything. IN their quest of purity they also destroyed writings from Aristotle. I think it is important to have a level head and try to understand the past in context.
You think a statue of Robert E Lee put up in New Orleans (where he never even served) was because of his prolific writing? Or the statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest in Nashville was for his well known kindness to animals?
You do realize that Lee was opposed initially to secessionist politicians and their slave-holding plantation elites desires to break with the Union? He thought it was rash and also in his heart of hearts, perhaps even in early 1861, knew that any combined Confederate attempts to secede from the Union would end up in a prolonged Civil War that due to North's much larger manpower, industrial prowess and efficiency, it was a conflict South couldn't win long-term. Lee may have been a slave-holder, and a reluctant secessionist especially after his own state of Virginia formally seceded but he was a keen, military strategist and he knew all too well the immense industrial and military prowess, technological advantages his adversary had. Many top, high-ranking Confederate generals were all too aware of this, too. Then-Colonel Robert E. Lee actually led a very dangerous reconnaissance scouting mission with a small group of scouts hundreds of miles behind enemy lines during Mexican-American War to gather information on Mexican troop movements and logistical supply lines. He also helped prevent what potentially could've been an unnecessary US infantry attack on what some of his scouts said looked like Mexican Army tents when what in reality were just a very large amount of grazing sheep sleeping in a valley.

Most Confederates derived their notoriety from their role in the killing of Americans so that Southern states could keep slaves. That's the entire purpose of the civil war, and some generals were really good at killing Americans so they became celebrities for killing Americans. And the reason they killed Americans was so that the South could leave the union, and the reason they wanted to leave the union was because they wanted to keep slaves. Apparently those statues aren't that good at teaching history.




When did we learn this? I don't believe this, is this a belief you have? If so, could you explain why you believe this?



I'm not sure where you are going with this. Derek Chauvin was found guilty of murdering George Floyd. That's the reason George Floyd and Derek Chauvin are famous. His death was ruled a homicide by the coroner and a jury found Derek Chauvin guilty of committing that homicide. Those are hard facts.

I certainly think it's valid to question whether George Floyd is worthy of being honored in the public square. He's become a symbol, a symbol of the perception of an uncaring justice system.

Meanwhile, Bill Cosby gets released due to some unforeseen legal procedural technicality because some previous Pa. DA made a deal allowing Cosby legal immunity from prosecution if he related or discussed the details of how he went about doping unsuspecting women at his homes, condo lofts, penthouses, etc and then once they were knocked out, he would sexually assault/rape them. We know the man is guilty. It would be asinine for any rational, ethically sound human being to even ATTEMPT to argue he's not guilty of these crimes. I think a few enterprising prosecutors should've realized or accepted the bitter, damning reality that any deal, terrible or otherwise, made by their predecessors, made with suspects related to them releasing information after an immunity agreement, has to be respected, whether they think its BS, fundamentally immoral.


I think it's impossible to tell what you are or are not in favor of because you rarely actually state your opinion and actually argue it, instead you do like the above and play this game where you think you caught the left in some sort of hypocritical position and try to mimic a poor man's version of that argument to point out the hypocrisy. Which only works if you actually captured the argument of a poster here accurately and not some distorted version of it. And then it only works for that one poster. Instead of you know, taking a position and arguing it. As it stands, it looks like you let the "the left" define your positions for you.
Its just an educated guess, maybe on my part but perhaps Farb is doing a version of reductio ad absurdum, an old Latin judicial-legal term meaning, "reduce to absurdity". Its an age-old legal/philosophical rhetorical form of argument or thought-experiment where you destroy or discredit your opponent's arguments by taking what it is their strongest position and showing how dubious, weak, hypocritical or lacking in overall merit it seems to have.
 

Farb

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I think I have stated my position my statue removal on here often in the past.
 

Paul

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The Confederate Statues are a palpable visible evidence of past racism and I can see why they need to go. Furthermore, this is a much easier battle to win than the systemic racism that permeates every single aspect of the USA. The latter is an abstract and hence much more difficult to combat or see. Sometimes the systemic racism is done by POC so this is a difficult enemy. OTOH, the confederate statues are an easy plain to see target.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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Its just an educated guess, maybe on my part but perhaps Farb is doing a version of reductio ad absurdum, an old Latin judicial-legal term meaning, "reduce to absurdity". Its an age-old legal/philosophical rhetorical form of argument or thought-experiment where you destroy or discredit your opponent's arguments by taking what it is their strongest position and showing how dubious, weak, hypocritical or lacking in overall merit it seems to have.

Right, which is why I said it's particularly ineffective because it assumes you actually know what you are arguing against, and then it's only useful to the particular person you are arguing with and nothing in general, and when it comes out non-sequitur it has nothing to anchor against -- it's like trying to combine the worst arguments from a dozen different people, and then making that absurd... which is like great, so what, you just reduced an argument no one was particularly arguing for here. Yay.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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I think I have stated my position my statue removal on here often in the past.

Sort of, you mix a lot of sarcasm in with it, so it's hard to tell how much of it is genuine, and how much you are taking an extreme position for effect, and how much you are just having fun in general.

Basically what I gather is, you believe once a community puts up a statue, they should stick with it forever even if the community's values have changed over time and that statue no longer represents what they believe.
 

brandon

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Basically what I gather is, you believe once a community puts up a statue, they should stick with it forever even if the community's values have changed over time and that statue no longer represents what they believe.
That can’t be his argument, because he would be totally fine with it if the city decided to take down the George Floyd statue tomorrow.
 

Farb

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You think a statue of Robert E Lee put up in New Orleans (where he never even served) was because of his prolific writing? Or the statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest in Nashville was for his well known kindness to animals?

Most Confederates derived their notoriety from their role in the killing of Americans so that Southern states could keep slaves. That's the entire purpose of the civil war, and some generals were really good at killing Americans so they became celebrities for killing Americans. And the reason they killed Americans was so that the South could leave the union, and the reason they wanted to leave the union was because they wanted to keep slaves. Apparently those statues aren't that good at teaching history.


By 'killing Americans' could you mean, good at war? I seem to recall a lot of statues and memorials to a lot of people throughout the world that maybe fought for the wrong the reasons but are also remembered because they were really good at their craft (killing and winning).
So, if you use the killing of Americans as a reason to tear down, then you will have to agree to pull down all statues of all Native Americans, CrazyHorse especially. If you throw in the 'but slavery' argument, that holds no water either as the natives also practices slavery well before the Europeans showed up and were actually quite uncivilized by today's standard (the only lenses that is acceptable to use today).
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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By 'killing Americans' could you mean, good at war? I seem to recall a lot of statues and memorials to a lot of people throughout the world that maybe fought for the wrong the reasons but are also remembered because they were really good at their craft (killing and winning).
So, if you use the killing of Americans as a reason to tear down, then you will have to agree to pull down all statues of all Native Americans, CrazyHorse especially. If you throw in the 'but slavery' argument, that holds no water either as the natives also practices slavery well before the Europeans showed up and were actually quite uncivilized by today's standard (the only lenses that is acceptable to use today).

Except we both know they didn't create those statues to honor good soldiers or generals. They didn't even create those statues to honor good civil war generals... ever wonder why there are no William Tecumseh Sherman statues in Atlanta? If they wanted to memorialize someone who was good at winning, that's who they would have picked.

As far as all those statues of Native Americans, could you list the ones you're talking about? I'm not too terribly familiar with many. The only Crazy Horse memorial I know of is one that isn't yet completed, built on private land, privately financed. Is that the one you're talking about?

You seem to struggle with the difference of honoring someone because of something they did verses honoring someone despite something they might have done.

For example, Confederate generals' are famous because they killed Americans in order to keep black Americans in chains. There is no reason to honor them unless you believe that is ok. George Washington is famous because he fought the British to create a new independent country. He is not famous because of his slave holdings. So you can create a statue to honor George Washington in spite of his owning slaves because that is not his primary claim to fame.

Crazy Horse is famous because he killed Americans in order to defend his land and people.
 

Farb

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Crazy Horse is famous because he killed Americans in order to defend his land and people.
How is that different than say, Beauregard?

Do we see a lot of statues to Custer on Indian Reservations? No. Then why would you expect to see a statue of Sherman, debatable how good he was at war vs just pure stubborn luck sprinkled with a bit of mental disorder, in Atlanta?
 

MT15

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Out of that long and thoughtful post, you pick that to respond to?
 

Farb

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Out of that long and thoughtful post, you pick that to respond to?
Yes. You are correct, as you can tell from my reply.

Feel free to weigh in on the discussion or you can stay in the cheap seats and critique everyone's posting style. Up to you.
 

Saint by the Bay

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How is that different than say, Beauregard?

Do we see a lot of statues to Custer on Indian Reservations? No. Then why would you expect to see a statue of Sherman, debatable how good he was at war vs just pure stubborn luck sprinkled with a bit of mental disorder, in Atlanta?

You realize you just made a good argument for why we shouldn't see statues commemorating Confederate figures on American soil, right?
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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How is that different than say, Beauregard?

First, since I'm a case by case kind of guy when it comes to statues, which statues of Crazy Horse are we talking about? I'm not familiar with any, and I'm not exactly calling to erect statues of Crazy Horse. It doesn't seem like there's much of a comparison right now.

Second, the Lakota were living on their land when the United States invaded. The United States did not invade to rid the Lakota of slavery, nor did the Lakota pick a war with the United States for any issue other than to be left alone. Fighting to protect your land from invaders is an ethic I think we all still agree with, and I don't think anyone has an issue with that, right? So, I would not advocate erecting a monument to Crazy Horse, because he's not an American hero, but if the Lakota wanted to put one on their land, I don't think they're doing so for any reason other than to honor someone who fought to try to keep invaders away.

As we all know, the primary driving reason for the Civil War was the South's desire to keep slaves and the fear that the United States would take away their "right" to keep slaves. That's it. That is what all the articles of secession said. That is what all the op-ed pieces from the newspapers of the day said, and that is what the politicians were saying in their respective legislatures.

The south was fighting for something that I hope no one today agrees with. The right to keep slaves. Any and all statues and memorials involving the civil war should make it clear... the generals, and soldiers were fighting on the wrong side and we should all be thankful that they lost.

But it is interesting that you picked Beauregard. Because he had a very good post Civil War career, working for racial reconciliation. I think statues about that period of his life would be worthwhile. I think I talked about this before. His career as a general should not be memorialized because the reason he fought was for a shameful cause, but his post war career was worth remembering in history.

Do we see a lot of statues to Custer on Indian Reservations? No. Then why would you expect to see a statue of Sherman, debatable how good he was at war vs just pure stubborn luck sprinkled with a bit of mental disorder, in Atlanta?

As SBTB pointed out... does your statement above not make it clear why there should not be statues to losing civil war generals who fought for the right to keep majority of the citizens in southern cities in chains? Why should their be a statue of a confederate general any American city when if they weren't losers, their new country would have kept their ancestors in chains?

Statues and monuments to the South and the Confederacy distort history and make people believe that the South was not wrong or fighting a shameful war for shameful reasons. Anything that does not make that clear is teaching bad history.

We don't erect statues and monuments to losers who fought for bad reasons.
 

Paul

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Lots of people with a questionable past have statues.
 
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zztop

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Confederate statues ~= participation trophies

Prove me wrong.

republicans: confederate statues should not be removed! it is part of our history and should not be swept away!
also republicans: critical race theory should not be taught because it represents something in the past that doesn't exist anymore!
 

Paul

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Many communist USSR satellite nations had a ton of statues of communist leaders. Once the USSR fell the statues were removed, however, they can still be seen in museums.

After Lithuania regained its independence in 1990, various Soviet statues were taken down and dumped in different places. Malinauskas requested the Lithuanian authorities to grant him the possession of the sculptures, so that he could build a privately financed museum. This Soviet-theme park was created in the wetlands of the Dzūkija National Park. Many of its features are re-creations of Soviet Gulag prison camps: wooden paths, guard towers, and barbed-wire fences.


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There is a commie statues graveyard in Estonia.

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The Confederate statues could be removed and place in a museum.
 

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