Should we see the removal of statues like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. (1 Viewer)

< Previous | Next >
  • Thread starter
  • Banned
  • #1

TheRealTruth

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2019
Messages
107
Reaction score
71
Location
Florida
Offline
Recently CNN aired an interview where one of the guests suggested what is in the topic.



I agree with the removal of confederate statues around the country, but should this also be done for founding fathers?
 

Saintman2884

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2020
Messages
151
Reaction score
71
Age
41
Location
Mobile, Alabama
Offline
Let us not forget that the founders didn’t like democracy. They feared redistribution of wealth.
Moreso they feared that democracy was equivalent to mob rule riled up and manipulated by unscrupulous, power-hungry demogouges or fanatically, overzealous violent revolutionaries using it to cleanse society and nation in the pursuit of this Platonic Society. And given the context of the excesses of the French Revolution and how its originally noble idealistic intentions turned France into a committee-run oligarchic authoritian state dictated by Robespierre and his henchmen committed to utopian, "Republic of Virtue". Even if that meant mass executions by beheadings, mass shootings, the Great Terror from 1792-94, taking accused political prisoners and drowning them on leaky, wooden boats on the Somme and the Sienne rivers, I think their fears might've seemed well-founded.

Plus, many of the Enlightenment philosophes didnt prefer or like democracy either from Voltaire, Hobbs, Burke, Descartes, as they viewed democracy as promoting those in society who might be less educated, more ignorant and more prone to making sentimental/emotional based arguments to complex, difficult state issues where they werent as informed as others were. Their perception of democracy as promoting the mediocrity into positions of power was very much a pre-Industrial era view before mass industrialization brought the working-class populations of Europe and America into greater prominence by mid-late 19th century and their demand for greater involvement and participation into state decision-making or influencing domestic policies.
 

GMRfellowtraveller

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2019
Messages
1,118
Reaction score
1,449
Age
54
Location
new orleans
Offline
Just as much as some left-leaning celebrities or theologians have tried to argue that Jesus Christ was a socialist, deliberately or subconsciously cherry-picking New Testament sources or passages to support their claims. Indeed, their are many forms of intellectual laziness or maybe more appropriately, intellectual dishonesty.
So how would you describe his social/economic philosophy?
 

Saintman2884

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2020
Messages
151
Reaction score
71
Age
41
Location
Mobile, Alabama
Offline
agreed, but i wanted to see what intellectual honesty looked like
I don't think it's wise or historically accurate if you try to label Christ's philosophical sermons as being compatible with Marxist-Leninism materialism or espousing Marx's Labor Theory of Value. Christ wasnt arguing for complete nationalization of all major state resources or assets, or an overthrow of Roman authority in Judea (Give to Ceaser what is Ceaser's), plus he wasn't sent by God to overthrow Roman control in Judea, establish a new messianic kingdom in ancient Judea, and then conquer surrounding Roman-controlled colonies, at least that's what the Pauline branch of Christianity argued and won out on, which believed Christ was immortal, died on the cross but was resurrected on the Third Day, and Christianity should be preached to and allow.non-Jewish Gentiles). Most of the original Christian communities in and around Judea, expat communities in Egypt, Antoich, Corinth believed Christ was indeed a violent revolutionary, wasnt the son of God, but a mortal man who was crucified and stayed dead. This was the early, dominant Christian sect that had most followers until end of 1st century C.E. when after Jerusalem was destroyed and Temple ransacked and broken down in 70 C.E. at end of First-Roman Jewish War, they started wondering why Christ's supposed apocalyptic end-of-the-world final good vs. evil war hadn't occured and Pauline Christianity began to gradually take greater adherence.

Christ's economic message, if their is a comparable one, if anything, might be interpreted as maybe a more socially-consciensce, less-heartless, and cutthroat form of capitalism or a limited form of it. He discusses and criticizes dishonest business practices on the poor and lack of societal care for the needy and disadvantaged. Maybe a primitive form of social democracy, but thats mixed-model economics, not Marxist-Leninism authoritarianism. Norway and Denmark have mass private enterprises and corporations just like we do but with more stringest regulations and large, expansive welfare state but their not nationalizing banks, large land holdings, private property is allowed, price and product controls aren't being dictated there.

Christ's message, if anything was.very similar to ancient Jewish rabbinical scholars and philosophers like Hellilel, Philo of Alexandria, Gamalliel, Paul's mentor in Acts, and even Flavius Josephus who argued that the Torah, Talmud's true purpose and function was to try and make the world a better place, to help the needy, the unfortunate, poor, destitute, to expose corruption and hypocrisy of the words and actions made by religious or secular leaders. Christ's "kingdom" that he outlined, he preached about in his sermons is one that sort of transcends political labels, categories, and definitions. One risks overlooking or trivializing what he was trying to if you simply categorize it into more familiar areas like Marxism, or Stalinism, or Maoism. I can't see Christ being too complementary of one-party Communist dictatorships like Castro's Cuba, or Cold War Soviet allied-East Germany any more then cruel, heartless laissez-faire unregulated "crony capitalism" or anarcho-capitalism in Western countries.
 

Saintman2884

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2020
Messages
151
Reaction score
71
Age
41
Location
Mobile, Alabama
Offline
Well, there's still a chance if/when he responds.
Don't worry, I just did. I hope you werent getting the idea I was hit-and-running with my posts anymore then trying to apply 19th-20th century socio-political, or economic labels to Christ's sermons detailed in the New Testament gospels over 2,000 years ago. Its like trying to argue whether Pythagoras was an anarchist Timothy O'Leary-ish mesmerizing cult leader or whether Plato or Aristotle were purely proto-parliamentarians in their ideas? I mean, some of Plato's, Socrates theories, ideas, or suggestions could be considered racist or advocating ethnic cleansing or supporting eugenics sterilizing the poor, needy, sick and the mentally disabled? Its bad history to try and argue about how one should try and complement these centuries-old ideals into ordinary practice in the 21st century?
 

Saintman2884

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2020
Messages
151
Reaction score
71
Age
41
Location
Mobile, Alabama
Offline
His actions were literally those of a socialist. Not sure how else he could be described if you had to put him in a political box.
I don't believe Christ would be one to advocate nationalizing banks or agreeing with state-run control of all most major economic industries. Or for advocating strict price and wage controls on consumer and basic goods like food, vegetables, and for command-control or planned economies where the state itself decides how much money, labor, and resources go into what sectors of the overall economy and the managers at the local and regional levels LIE about the level of productivity and success rates because those 5 Year Plans demands were too high and unrealistic and unable to be reached so they lie about their sectors receive and produce. Oh, and BTW in most socialist countries, the country's currency becomes so stagnant, out-of proportion and hyper inflated that outside the country's borders, it's essentially worthless. Like the GDR Ostmark, or post-Chavez's Venezuela's Bolivarian currency since 2014. Thats a long-term impact of socialist price/wage control state economics.

There's a lot more to socialism then just higher taxes on wealthier citizens and corporations and a more, equitable distribution of resources and a stronger, better-funded welfare state.
 
Last edited:

MT15

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2019
Messages
4,270
Reaction score
7,135
Location
Midwest
Offline
Communism isn’t socialism, is it? I think we’re conflating the two and they’re not the same, I don’t think.
 

Saintman2884

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2020
Messages
151
Reaction score
71
Age
41
Location
Mobile, Alabama
Offline
Communism isn’t socialism, is it? I think we’re conflating the two and they’re not the same, I don’t think.
Socialism is the first step in Marx's Communist Manifesto. Apart of his materialist dialectic towards a stateless, classless anarcho-communist utopian society. Communism is just the more advanced, politically advanced version of that dialectical materialistic process. Socialism on steroids, perhaps. Still socialist economics do argue and call for nationalizing banks, private corporations, major economic sectors, instituting wage and price controls on most basic and consumer goods, limiting the amount of money or land one can own. Demonizing individuals financial success, like saying billionaires shouldn't exist (Bernie, here's looking at you).

Like I said earlier, there's a lot more to socialism then just higher taxes on wealthier citizens, multi-national corporations, creating and funding a well-structured welfare state infrastructure. Socialism, as an ideology, doesn't leave too much open for organized religion being allowed to exist or have too many favorable things to say about it other then systematically or gradually wiping/phasing it out because it is a tool of the bourgeoiuse power interests to fool the working/middle-classes.

Democratic socialism still adheres to Marx's eventual anarcho-communist stateless, classless society just under the guise of parliamentary elections, gradualist interpretation of Marxist economics which doesn't come across as maybe so shrill, confrontational or too radical sounding. The philosophical left-wing intellectual late 19th century British group the Fabian Society which were the philosophical underpinnings of what became the Labour Party, were sort of the originators or modern founders of democratic socialism. As well as the old German SPD in Wilhelmine Germany.
 
Last edited:

samiam5211

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 1, 2019
Messages
1,366
Reaction score
1,713
Age
43
Location
Earth
Online
I’m not religious, but based on what we’ve been told about him, I think his economic philosophy is closer to Karl Marx than it is to Joel Olsteen.
 

Saintman2884

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2020
Messages
151
Reaction score
71
Age
41
Location
Mobile, Alabama
Offline
I’m not religious, but based on what we’ve been told about him, I think his economic philosophy is closer to Karl Marx than it is to Joel Olsteen.
Again, where in New Testament gospels is Christ advocating for an proletariat working-class revolution against corrupt, Roman-allied Jewish Sanhedrin priestly class and their Roman overlords or the Roman Empire. In fact, Christ sort of confirms Rome's secular authority or control when he says, "Render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser, and Give to God what is God's". I'd love to know where Christ's economic philosophy is equivalent to Marxist theories or concepts like Labor Theory of Value, or nationalizing key major essential economic sectors or demonizing rich people or corporations as inherently evil, immoral irredeemable people.

Criticizing the hypocrisies or contradictions of the religious and political authorities you see in Christ's sermons aren't too totally exclusive or unique only to him. A good deal of Christ's rhetoric, themes are/were heavily influenced by Jewish Rabbinical scholars, philosophers Hellilel, Gamiliel, Philo of Alexandria, and Flavius Josephus commentaries.
 

samiam5211

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 1, 2019
Messages
1,366
Reaction score
1,713
Age
43
Location
Earth
Online
Again, where in New Testament gospels is Christ advocating for an proletariat working-class revolution against corrupt, Roman-allied Jewish Sanhedrin priestly class and their Roman overlords or the Roman Empire. In fact, Christ sort of confirms Rome's secular authority or control when he says, "Render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser, and Give to God what is God's". I'd love to know where Christ's economic philosophy is equivalent to Marxist theories or concepts like Labor Theory of Value, or nationalizing key major essential economic sectors or demonizing rich people or corporations as inherently evil, immoral irredeemable people.

Criticizing the hypocrisies or contradictions of the religious and political authorities you see in Christ's sermons aren't too totally exclusive or unique only to him. A good deal of Christ's rhetoric, themes are/were heavily influenced by Jewish Rabbinical scholars, philosophers Hellilel, Gamiliel, Philo of Alexandria, and Flavius Josephus commentaries.
You’re getting too far into the mechanics of communism. Jesus didn’t know about Communism because he lived 1900 years before Marx articulated it.

Jesus wasn’t a fan of income inequality. I’m not going to get into a theological debate about it because I don’t believe the theology.
 

Taurus

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2019
Messages
629
Reaction score
1,404
Age
52
Location
Yacolt, WA
Online
Again, where in New Testament gospels is Christ advocating for an proletariat working-class revolution against corrupt, Roman-allied Jewish Sanhedrin priestly class and their Roman overlords or the Roman Empire. In fact, Christ sort of confirms Rome's secular authority or control when he says, "Render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser, and Give to God what is God's". I'd love to know where Christ's economic philosophy is equivalent to Marxist theories or concepts like Labor Theory of Value, or nationalizing key major essential economic sectors or demonizing rich people or corporations as inherently evil, immoral irredeemable people.

Criticizing the hypocrisies or contradictions of the religious and political authorities you see in Christ's sermons aren't too totally exclusive or unique only to him. A good deal of Christ's rhetoric, themes are/were heavily influenced by Jewish Rabbinical scholars, philosophers Hellilel, Gamiliel, Philo of Alexandria, and Flavius Josephus commentaries.
I don't think the carpenter from Nazareth would give a flying fart whether those in power were Socialists or Capitalists, what he'd want to see is fair and equitable treatment for everyone.
Centralized planning? Yeah sure, Caesar, whatever. Just make sure the poor are provided for.
Laissez-faire capitalism? No problem, Mr Rockefeller, just make sure the poor are taken care of.

Of course, being a Zeroeth-century rabbi, the concepts of capitalism and socialism would have to be explained very carefully to him, since rule by royal decree was the only form of government he'd ever seen.
 

insidejob

Well-known member
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
1,902
Reaction score
2,550
Age
85
Location
Back in 70124
Offline
Don't worry, I just did. I hope you werent getting the idea I was hit-and-running with my posts anymore then trying to apply 19th-20th century socio-political, or economic labels to Christ's sermons detailed in the New Testament gospels over 2,000 years ago. Its like trying to argue whether Pythagoras was an anarchist Timothy O'Leary-ish mesmerizing cult leader or whether Plato or Aristotle were purely proto-parliamentarians in their ideas? I mean, some of Plato's, Socrates theories, ideas, or suggestions could be considered racist or advocating ethnic cleansing or supporting eugenics sterilizing the poor, needy, sick and the mentally disabled? Its bad history to try and argue about how one should try and complement these centuries-old ideals into ordinary practice in the 21st century?
No, I wasn't implying that at all but I can see how it could be taken that way. I thought you might just not respond because it had the potential to derail the thread. I see there was a little back and forth about it but you're a consistent enough member to let the end of something be the end of something rather than turn the thread into one about religion. (Though I love a good religion discussion where appropriate.)
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

< Previous | Next >

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Advertisement

General News Feed

Fact Checkers News Feed

Sponsored

Top Bottom