Should we see the removal of statues like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. (1 Viewer)

[TheRealTruth]

Recently CNN aired an interview where one of the guests suggested what is in the topic.

CNN's Angela Rye: Washington, Jefferson Statues "Need To Come Down"

CNN's Angela Rye called for statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to come down Thursday on the network. "American history is not all glorious... George Washington was a slave owner. We need to call slave owners out for what they are. Whether we think they were protecting American...

www.realclearpolitics.com

I agree with the removal of confederate statues around the country, but should this also be done for founding fathers?

 

[insidejob]

Don't worry, I just did. I hope you werent getting the idea I was hit-and-running with my posts anymore then trying to apply 19th-20th century socio-political, or economic labels to Christ's sermons detailed in the New Testament gospels over 2,000 years ago. Its like trying to argue whether Pythagoras was an anarchist Timothy O'Leary-ish mesmerizing cult leader or whether Plato or Aristotle were purely proto-parliamentarians in their ideas? I mean, some of Plato's, Socrates theories, ideas, or suggestions could be considered racist or advocating ethnic cleansing or supporting eugenics sterilizing the poor, needy, sick and the mentally disabled? Its bad history to try and argue about how one should try and complement these centuries-old ideals into ordinary practice in the 21st century?

No, I wasn't implying that at all but I can see how it could be taken that way. I thought you might just not respond because it had the potential to derail the thread. I see there was a little back and forth about it but you're a consistent enough member to let the end of something be the end of something rather than turn the thread into one about religion. (Though I love a good religion discussion where appropriate.)

 

[Farb]

https://news.yahoo.com/two-george-f...EnJqy5BlmuGvV2MY91lY-HEmMTeOAMgKWWBURFZ8PKBsa

There is a lot to unpack here. If the statues are insured then no real crime.
Comparing Floyds life and accomplishments to, George Washington or Honest Abe, I think it is only right his statues are removed as well. After all, you have to take into the account the life that was lived despite the time and social norms of the day. We should put criminals on a pedestal.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

https://news.yahoo.com/two-george-f...EnJqy5BlmuGvV2MY91lY-HEmMTeOAMgKWWBURFZ8PKBsa

There is a lot to unpack here. If the statues are insured then no real crime.
Comparing Floyds life and accomplishments to, George Washington or Honest Abe, I think it is only right his statues are removed as well. After all, you have to take into the account the life that was lived despite the time and social norms of the day. We should put criminals on a pedestal.

I thought the point was to remove statues that were erected to honor men specifically for thing we no longer want to honor (like statues erected to honor a man specifically because he fought and killed Americans in order to keep black people in chains). Do you think the statues of George Floyd were erected to honor him for his crimes or to memorialize him for being murdered by a cop?

 

[samiam5211]

https://news.yahoo.com/two-george-f...EnJqy5BlmuGvV2MY91lY-HEmMTeOAMgKWWBURFZ8PKBsa

There is a lot to unpack here. If the statues are insured then no real crime.
Comparing Floyds life and accomplishments to, George Washington or Honest Abe, I think it is only right his statues are removed as well. After all, you have to take into the account the life that was lived despite the time and social norms of the day. We should put criminals on a pedestal.

I support the right of a community to put up or take down whatever statues people of the community wants.

I wouldn’t support removing the Lincoln Memorial, or a statue of Lincoln in my town or state, but if people in a town I do not live in want to put up a statue of David Duke or take down a statue of MLK, I feel that is their right.

I wouldn’t do business in that town though.

 

[Paul]

The poor disenfranchised POC will still be disenfranchised after the statues are demolished. Demolishing the statues is just massive virtue signaling that does not help the oppressed.

Demolishing the statues will create much more polarization than what we have today. It could easily divide the country into white and non-white zones or lead to a second civil war.

That is why I am an admirer of philosopher Rodney King.

 

[samiam5211]

The poor disenfranchised POC will still be disenfranchised after the statues are demolished. Demolishing the statues is just massive virtue signaling that does not help the oppressed.

Demolishing the statues will create much more polarization than what we have today. It could easily divide the country into white and non-white zones or lead to a second civil war.

That is why I am an admirer of philosopher Rodney King.

If people are willing to fight a civil war over the removal of statues of people who were traitors to the country, then i don't want to share a country with those people anyway.

 

[Paul]

If people are willing to fight a civil war over the removal of statues of people who were traitors to the country, then i don't want to share a country with those people anyway.

I hear the ideological purity and I have admiration for the words above. However, two issues:

Judging the past with a 21st century mindset is called presentism and it can lead to problems.

pres·ent·ism
/ˈprezenˌtizəm/

noun

uncritical adherence to present-day attitudes, especially the tendency to interpret past events in terms of modern values and concepts.
Definitions from Oxford Languages

2. When two different tribes push each other the end result is more tribalism and war. I suggest reconciliation and forgiveness for the sins of America. Let's move on to a better future. Let's become one nation undivided.

 

[DaveXA]

I hear the ideological purity and I have admiration for the words above. However, two issues:

Judging the past with a 21st century mindset is called presentism and it can lead to problems.

pres·ent·ism
/ˈprezenˌtizəm/

noun

uncritical adherence to present-day attitudes, especially the tendency to interpret past events in terms of modern values and concepts.
Definitions from Oxford Languages

2. When two different tribes push each other the end result is more tribalism and war. I suggest reconciliation and forgiveness for the sins of America. Let's move on to a better future. Let's become one nation undivided.

That's all well and good, but until Trumpers quit Trump (amongst other things), there's no chance of uniting with them.

 

[samiam5211]

I hear the ideological purity and I have admiration for the words above. However, two issues:

Judging the past with a 21st century mindset is called presentism and it can lead to problems.

pres·ent·ism
/ˈprezenˌtizəm/

noun

uncritical adherence to present-day attitudes, especially the tendency to interpret past events in terms of modern values and concepts.
Definitions from Oxford Languages

2. When two different tribes push each other the end result is more tribalism and war. I suggest reconciliation and forgiveness for the sins of America. Let's move on to a better future. Let's become one nation undivided.

yea, i'm not saying that we should go to war over the statues to the heroes who defended slavery. I am saying that the people who are willing to go to war over it aren't worth our concern.

Their numbers are tiny and there is no chance of a civil war erupting over the few thousand turds willing to take up arms to defend the legacy of Stonewall Jackson.

There are a insignificant number, and if they are willing to die for those statues, i welcome their martyrdom.

 

[MT15]

The poor disenfranchised POC will still be disenfranchised after the statues are demolished. Demolishing the statues is just massive virtue signaling that does not help the oppressed.

Demolishing the statues will create much more polarization than what we have today. It could easily divide the country into white and non-white zones or lead to a second civil war.

That is why I am an admirer of philosopher Rodney King.

There shouldn’t be statues of Confederates in our Capitol. If people want to get upset about removing what should have never been there, that’s on them.

I completely reject your notion that anywhere near a majority of white people are upset about the removal of statues of Confederate leaders. Where do you get the idea that there are so many white people enraged by this that they will be willing to go to war?

 

[SFIDC3]

That's all well and good, but until Trumpers quit Trump (amongst other things), there's no chance of uniting with them.

Yep, someone seems very concerned with "undividing the nation".....when in fact due to Trumpism it is divided already. I mean how can you have a meaningful conversation with someone who believes "the election was stolen" and Trump was sent by God.....it is pure insanity.....I fully agree with below....

If people are willing to fight a civil war over the removal of statues of people who were traitors to the country, then i don't want to share a country with those people anyway.

 

[Paul]

There shouldn’t be statues of Confederates in our Capitol. If people want to get upset about removing what should have never been there, that’s on them.

I completely reject your notion that anywhere near a majority of white people are upset about the removal of statues of Confederate leaders. Where do you get the idea that there are so many white people enraged by this that they will be willing to go to war?

Confederate statues should be removed. I was talking about GW, Jefferson, and Lincoln.

 

[Paul]

That's all well and good, but until Trumpers quit Trump (amongst other things), there's no chance of uniting with them.

I do not advise tribalism guys.

 

[MT15]

Confederate statues should be removed. I was talking about GW, Jefferson, and Lincoln.

Sorry, I forgot this thread was started by a troll who has since left us. I was thinking about the recent vote in Congress yesterday.

 

[Farb]

I thought the point was to remove statues that were erected to honor men specifically for thing we no longer want to honor (like statues erected to honor a man specifically because he fought and killed Americans in order to keep black people in chains). Do you think the statues of George Floyd were erected to honor him for his crimes or to memorialize him for being murdered by a cop?

Do you have an example of the dude that killed Americans in order to keep black people in chains? Because I have a feeling those statues were not erected to hold up slavery but was put up to honor and memorialize something else. Remember the stupid argument that it all depended on their dress in the statue representation? Amazing.

It really doesn't matter why it was erected, we learned that recently.

How does breaking into a home and putting a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach and demanding money stack up against overdosing with cop (who has not been shown to be racist as far as I know, because it would be everywhere...and I mean everywhere) on his back after a legal arrest? How does that woman feel when she sees this statue of her assailant?

It does not make any sense to me, but then again, I am not in favor in removing statues that might be 'problematic' or uncomfortable to someone. History is problematic, violence and uncomfortable.

 

[Paul]

Sorry, I forgot this thread was started by a troll who has since left us. I was thinking about the recent vote in Congress yesterday.

The Confederate statues need to go. If they were more ancient I could see an argument, but they are quite recent.

BTW, when the Catholic Popes replaced the Roman Emperors they destroyed many Roman pagan buildings but elected to keep the Roman Coliseum even though it was used to kill Christians. IN sense it was blessing they did not destroy everything. IN their quest of purity they also destroyed writings from Aristotle. I think it is important to have a level head and try to understand the past in context.

 

[Saintman2884]

Yep, someone seems very concerned with "undividing the nation".....when in fact due to Trumpism it is divided already. I mean how can you have a meaningful conversation with someone who believes "the election was stolen" and Trump was sent by God.....it is pure insanity.....I fully agree with below....

It might be extremely difficult, but there's always the option I chose and thats just ignore or disregard their lunatic fantastical ramblings. It's better than some of the other options Paul has wisely pointed out usually tends to occur when political tribalism becomes extreme and leads to terrible outcomes or situations.

 

[SFIDC3]

It might be extremely difficult, but there's always the option I chose and thats just ignore or disregard their lunatic fantastical ramblings. It's better than some of the other options Paul has wisely pointed out usually tends to occur when political tribalism becomes extreme and leads to terrible outcomes or situations.

I think we all try to do that but the number of crazy in this country....is alarming.....