Should we see the removal of statues like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. (1 Viewer)

[TheRealTruth]

Recently CNN aired an interview where one of the guests suggested what is in the topic.

CNN's Angela Rye: Washington, Jefferson Statues "Need To Come Down"

CNN's Angela Rye called for statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to come down Thursday on the network. "American history is not all glorious... George Washington was a slave owner. We need to call slave owners out for what they are. Whether we think they were protecting American...

www.realclearpolitics.com

I agree with the removal of confederate statues around the country, but should this also be done for founding fathers?

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

Also I wonder why we haven’t heard anyone want to change the name of the school that so many of the political elites have graduated from. Yale was named after Elihu Yale a slave owner and slave trader. So if we are tearing down everything related to slavery then Yale needs to be torn down and have all of their assets sold and money given out to all of those who keep bringing up reparations.
But it will never happen because those in power on both sides don’t want you to have a say in anything. It’s all do what I say but don’t worry about what I do.

 

[LA - L.A.]

To be honest I haven’t looked at your post and I’ve never heard of the term tyranny of the majority. But just guessing until I look it up does it have anything to do with condemning free elections? If it does are you against our election process?

Ok I looked up the meaning of tyranny of the majority and since it was the first time I had heard of it...

You may not have looked at Ayo's post in which he first mentioned tyranny by the majority, but before the above responses you made to Ayo, you quoted a post of mine (https://madaboutpolitics.com/thread...ington-and-thomas-jefferson.73830/post-109689) which not only mentioned tyranny by the majority, but also quoted one of the founding father's explaining the concern about tyranny by the majority.

Are you not actually reading the posts that you quote and respond to?

 

[MT15]

Tony your ideas are just getting absurd. No one is tearing down colleges that are named for slave owners. No one is even discussing tearing down colleges, well except you.

Instead of having a conversation and trying to see what the other side is trying to say, you are just getting more overwrought.

maybe you need to leave the subject for a couple of days. Maybe some time to reflect would help. This is obviously something you are very upset about. Take a break maybe. Just a suggestion.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

You may not have looked at Ayo's post in which he first mentioned tyranny by the majority, but before the above responses you made to Ayo, you quoted a post of mine (https://madaboutpolitics.com/thread...ington-and-thomas-jefferson.73830/post-109689) which not only mentioned tyranny by the majority, but also quoted one of the founding father's explaining the concern about tyranny by the majority.

Are you not actually reading the posts that you quote and respond to?

Yes I read what I post. Tyranny of the majority follows what I posted about when Landrieu took down the statues. He did that to please the majority while not caring about the minority. It was the same thing in Washington. It looks like what you did was read the first line of my post and didn’t read the rest.
I’m not ashamed to say what I don’t know and be honest about it. It seems that you have your opinion set and are not willing to admit when something on your side of the aisle is wrong. There are many people in this nation who had ancestors who fought on both sides of the civil war. There were people from the north that owned slaves and people from the south who didn’t. A lot of those people had differing views on the states right to be able to secede from the US. There was also a financial backdrop to the war because of the money the south was producing from the sale of cotton and many northerners didn’t want to lose that money. Slavery was the main reason and no one disputes that.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

You may not have looked at Ayo's post in which he first mentioned tyranny by the majority, but before the above responses you made to Ayo, you quoted a post of mine (https://madaboutpolitics.com/thread...ington-and-thomas-jefferson.73830/post-109689) which not only mentioned tyranny by the majority, but also quoted one of the founding father's explaining the concern about tyranny by the majority.

Are you not actually reading the posts that you quote and respond to?

Yes I read what I post. Tyranny of the majority follows what I posted about when Landrieu took down the statues. He did that to please the majority while not caring about the minority. It was the same thing in Washington. It looks like what you did was read the first line of my post and didn’t read the rest.
I’m not ashamed to say what I don’t know and be honest about it. It seems that you have your opinion set and are not willing to admit when something on your side of the aisle is wrong. There are many people in this nation who had ancestors who fought on both sides of the civil war. There were people from the north that owned slaves and people from the south who didn’t. A lot of those people had differing views on the states right to be able to secede from the US. There was also a financial backdrop to the war because of the money the south was producing from the sale of cotton and many northerners didn’t want to lose that money. Slavery was the main reason and no one disputes that.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

Tony your ideas are just getting absurd. No one is tearing down colleges that are named for slave owners. No one is even discussing tearing down colleges, well except you.

Instead of having a conversation and trying to see what the other side is trying to say, you are just getting more overwrought.

maybe you need to leave the subject for a couple of days. Maybe some time to reflect would help. This is obviously something you are very upset about. Take a break maybe. Just a suggestion.

Ok let me explain it to you. Your right no one is tearing down Yale but how is Yale different then some of the streets being renamed to get rid of the names of confederate generals? The truth is the only difference is to many leaders of the country went to Yale so no news agency will talk about it. If you are truly pissed about a 100 year old statue then why wouldn’t you be just as pissed about a college named after a slave trader and slave owner? It really looks like we have a lot of fake outrage and a equal amount of uniformed outrage.
If you still can’t understand then I can’t help you.

 

[MT15]

I wouldn’t care if they decide to rename Yale. And we rename streets all the time in this country for all kinds of reasons.

They renamed a street in my town to Veterans Memorial Parkway. That’s fine, it’s a bit longer than the previous name but that’s the job of the council to decide those things. I suppose if the former name had been one of my ancestors I might be a bit annoyed, for a while I suppose.

If the towns and cities decide to rename streets or take down statues, that’s just a part of life. You can never please everyone. Sometimes they do what you want, sometimes they do what other people want.

The statues or street names don’t change history either by their presence or absence. In the grand scheme of everything we have going on right now this isn’t, or shouldn’t be, a huge deal, IMO.

I tell my daughter all the time, when you find yourself railing about something you cannot control, you are only hurting yourself in the long run. None of us need extra stress right now.

As a last thought, consider this final point. You say the outrage over a 100 year old statue is “fake” in your opinion, yet you are seeming to feel some pretty real outrage about the removal of the same statues. So just consider that both sides are feeling real emotions, maybe? You wouldn’t like it if I said your feelings about the statues were fake I don’t think.

Understanding and acknowledging where both sides are coming from is a necessary first step before this can even really be discussed.

 

[Goatman saint]

Part of the discussion needs to be along the line of viewing through a historical perspective and weighing the good of the person against what modern society says is the bad.
At the time Washington and Jefferson, along with others of the founding fathers owned slaves. However, is it a main thing in who they were, or is it simply a small part of who they were. Their accomplishments in history are great. Their lives, opinions and thoughts as the basis of this country. While they owned slaves, I’m not sure it reaches the extent that they become a lightning rod. Where they major slave owners? No, not in the least. Even at the time they lived, they were not on the extreme edge

When you look at confederacy leaders, while yes you can talk states rights, it boiled down to slavery. The southern way of Life couldn’t have existed without it. They were rebels fighting for slavery (states rights) and against the United States. Sadly also, through time the south and any good that may have happened has been so tainted by years of racism that It’s impossible to separate the two anymore.
A couple hundred years from now what are we doing which will cause horror in our descendants? I’m not going to wade into a statement of which side is right on this topic. I have my opinion, but that’s all it is.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

Part of the discussion needs to be along the line of viewing through a historical perspective and weighing the good of the person against what modern society says is the bad.
At the time Washington and Jefferson, along with others of the founding fathers owned slaves. However, is it a main thing in who they were, or is it simply a small part of who they were. Their accomplishments in history are great. Their lives, opinions and thoughts as the basis of this country. While they owned slaves, I’m not sure it reaches the extent that they become a lightning rod. Where they major slave owners? No, not in the least. Even at the time they lived, they were not on the extreme edge

When you look at confederacy leaders, while yes you can talk states rights, it boiled down to slavery. The southern way of Life couldn’t have existed without it. They were rebels fighting for slavery (states rights) and against the United States. Sadly also, through time the south and any good that may have happened has been so tainted by years of racism that It’s impossible to separate the two anymore.
A couple hundred years from now what are we doing which will cause horror in our descendants? I’m not going to wade into a statement of which side is right on this topic. I have my opinion, but that’s all it is.

Very good post. My earlier post in this thread was asking what they were trying to accomplish by removing the statues because it won’t change what’s in peoples hearts. Nothing that has been posted by me or anyone else on this thread will change anyone’s heart. I just think it’s a ridiculous attempt to appease those screaming the loudest. Next year after George Floyd’s name has been forgotten there will be new issues that will get someone all bent out of shape over. Al Sharpton will still not pay his taxes and both him and Jesse Jackson will still be trying to stir the pot because they don’t make any money if everyone is getting along. Which is the way most people want it.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

This is the kind of thing you get with mob rule. This is the kind of thing you get from people who aren’t striving for perfection. This is what you get from stupidity. Where will it end? If you think this is a winning strategy for democrats you are wrong.

Memorial to Holocaust Survivors Toppled

During a wave of left-wing destruction of historical statues, a memorial fountain that was built by a man in memory of his family murdered by the Nazis was destroyed.

www.breakingisraelnews.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

Yes I read what I post.

You're saying here that you read other people's posts when you respond to them.

After responding to my post that mentioned and explained tyranny of the majority, you said you had never heard of tyranny of the majority.

You argued to me that the majority of people wanted the icons of the confederacy to stay in place, so it was unfair that politicians are bowing to the will of the minority.

Now you're arguing that they are coming down because politicians are bowing to the pressure of the majority who want them to come down and claiming that's tyranny by the majority, even though you haven't shown how taking them down is oppressing any rights of the minority.

It's difficult to have a rational discussion with someone who repeatedly makes contradictory statements.

 

[LA - L.A.]

This is the kind of thing you get with mob rule. This is the kind of thing you get from people who aren’t striving for perfection. This is what you get from stupidity. Where will it end? If you think this is a winning strategy for democrats you are wrong.

Memorial to Holocaust Survivors Toppled

During a wave of left-wing destruction of historical statues, a memorial fountain that was built by a man in memory of his family murdered by the Nazis was destroyed.

www.breakingisraelnews.com

Two things, what in that article makes you think the statue was toppled by a mob? No one saw who did it, so no one knows how many people were involved or why they did it. Why jump to the conclusion it was a mob?

Second, do you view everything in the world as a matter of Democrats vs Republicans? There's a lot more to the world than Democrats and Republicans.

What I'm hearing from this post of yours is that you disagree with anything you think comes from the Democrats and you blame Democrats for everything you disagree with.

I'm also hearing the converse from your statement regarding Republicans.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

You're saying here that you read other people's posts when you respond to them.

After responding to my post that mentioned and explained tyranny of the majority, you said you had never heard of tyranny of the majority.

You argued to me that the majority of people wanted the icons of the confederacy to stay in place, so it was unfair that politicians are bowing to the will of the minority.

Now you're arguing that they are coming down because politicians are bowing to the pressure of the majority who want them to come down and claiming that's tyranny by the majority, even though you haven't shown how taking them down is oppressing any rights of the minority.

It's difficult to have a rational discussion with someone who repeatedly makes contradictory statements.

Where did did I argue with you and say the majority of the people wanted the statues to stay in place? It makes your argument easy when you make shirt up.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

Look we both know the statues are coming down because that’s what is wanted right now. The link I posted about the holocaust statue being toppled should scare the hell out of people no matter what. Where will it end? Will our constitution be tossed because slave owners were the ones who wrote it? This country is made up of about 76.6% whites and about 13.4% blacks with a mix of other races and biracial people mixed in. We have all of these hyphenated names for races when we should all be Americans first and all lives matter. Unless we can all agree on that there will continue to be differences and never ending conflict.

 

[V Chip]

But here you are after you already said that I didn’t say that I wasn’t interested in digging up dead people.

I never said any such thing. If you have to make up blatant lies about other posters because you’re getting your arse handed to you in a debate, that’s pretty sad.

Now you are claiming you read all of the posts but I’ve already proven you didn’t.

You have proven nothing because I read every post in this thread.
[Mod Edit: Quoting a deleted comment]

 

[LA - L.A.]

Where did did I argue with you and say the majority of the people wanted the statues to stay in place? It makes your argument easy when you make shirt up.

I stand partially corrected. You didn't outright argue with me that a minority want them to come down. What you said to me was:

Letting the people decide what happens is the best way to solve this issue unless you are scared that the majority will not give you your desired outcome.

That statement gave me the impression you believe that the majority want to keep them in place. This next statement by you to someone else confirmed my impression of what you believe.

Instead what we have been doing is bowing to the demands from a minority of the citizens and not necessarily the majority.

That's a pretty clear statement that you see them coming down as bowing to demands of the minority. You literally said taking them down has been bowing to the demands from a minority.

Also, you did in fact say you had never heard of tyranny of the majority after you had quoted and responded to a post I made that mentioned it, explained it and quoted one of the founding fathers about it.

I understand you don't want them to be taken down, so just simply say that. Out of respect to yourself and everyone else, stop contradicting yourself in an effort to try to justify the opinion that you've chosen to have.

It seems like your opinion comes from an emotional place and not a place of rational thought. If it came more from what you rationally thought, then I don't think you would be contradicting yourself so much. It's okay to feel like you don't want them to come down, just own it and be aware that you are feeling your way through this issue more than you are thinking your way through it.

We all feel our way through some issues more than we think our way through them. It's a part of being human that we all have in common.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Look we both know the statues are coming down because that’s what is wanted right now. The link I posted about the holocaust statue being toppled should scare the hell out of people no matter what.

Holocaust memorials have been destroyed in our country all the way back to right after the end of Word War II. Why is it that only now should we be scared as hell about it? Were you scared as hell a few years ago when the graves of Holocaust survivors were desecrated?

Where will it end?

Vandalism has been around since at least as long as the original Vandals were harassing the Roman empire. I doubt vandalism will ever completely end. I see nothing tying the vandalism, referred to in the article, to the movement to remove the icons of the confederacy and slavery from our public spaces.

What connection between the two do you see?

Will our constitution be tossed because slave owners were the ones who wrote it?

Absolutely not. We're doing just the opposite. We as a society are admitting that as brilliant and forward thinking as the founders of our social contract, the Constitution, were, we've still got work to do to continue fixing some of the things they got wrong.

Those guys only wanted white property owning males to have the right to vote. As you referred to, they were cool with slavery. We got rid of slavery, on paper anyhow, without tossing the Constitution. We gave non-property owners the right to vote, without tossing the Constitution. We gave women the right to vote, without tossing the Constitution. We gave all people equal rights, at least on paper, without tossing out the Constitution.

There have been countless Supreme Court rulings that have drastically changed the interpretation of the Constitution, without tossing it.

In my opinion, the most brilliant thing about the Constitution is that in includes a process to amend it so that we can fix it when it needs fixing it. We don't need to "toss" it, because we can simply fix it.

But the big question is, how do you get from taking down statues to "tossing" the Constitution. That logical leap is as wide as a light year.

This country is made up of about 76.6% whites and about 13.4% blacks with a mix of other races and biracial people mixed in. We have all of these hyphenated names for races when we should all be Americans first and all lives matter. Unless we can all agree on that there will continue to be differences and never ending conflict.

Who have you heard say that not all lives matter? Who have you heard make the argument that not all lives matter? A direct quote of someone saying or arguing that not all lives matter would be great.

 

[insidejob]

From the friggin Navy. Guess this ship and possibly Stennis Space Center will be getting new names in the not so distant future.