Should we see the removal of statues like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. (1 Viewer)

[TheRealTruth]

Recently CNN aired an interview where one of the guests suggested what is in the topic.

CNN's Angela Rye: Washington, Jefferson Statues "Need To Come Down"

CNN's Angela Rye called for statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to come down Thursday on the network. "American history is not all glorious... George Washington was a slave owner. We need to call slave owners out for what they are. Whether we think they were protecting American...

www.realclearpolitics.com

I agree with the removal of confederate statues around the country, but should this also be done for founding fathers?

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

Cool. Then it shouldn't be a big deal to get rid of them since it doesn't matter.

Oh, but the way, I'm a descendant of 2 southern civil war soldiers and I think it's a farce that people want to keep these things up.

That’s your feelings and not everyones. Put this on a ballot and let the public decide. That’s one of many issues I have with democrats that you guys act on emotion not on facts. I say let the people decide and then live with it. If I were in charge (thank God I’m not) if the people decide to keep the statues I would make it a felony to deface any monument.

The answer to your questions is yes, people were complaining about all of those things going back even further than the timelines you gave. Most of us didn't start listening until recently.

I think it's self-evident that a lot of people are listening and agreeing that it's time to remove these icons of the confederacy and slavery from our public spaces and to preserve them in our historical museums. The only statues being destroyed are those that are being taken down by force. Those that are being taken down by choice are being preserved. No history is being erased, it's just being put into a different context. A context that is in alignment with our philosophies and values, as opposed to contradicting them.

It's my opinion that we've reached critical mass on this issue and it is now inevitable that these icons of the confederacy and slavery will be removed from all of our public spaces. It will take a little more time, but they will all eventually be relocated to more appropriate places.

Unfortunately, there is also going to be a lot of resistance to this change, as we are already witnessing. Some of this resistance is going to be violent. There will be more pain. Growth almost always involves pain and disruption. Nothing new can be created without something else being un-created. It's one of the challenging truths of the universe.

I understand that those who have a fondness for these icons are going to suffer a legitimate sense of fear and pain over the loss of something important to them. Loss is a terrible thing for anyone to experience. We all go through great lengths to avoid the fear and pain of loss. It's one of the defining traits that all of us humans have in common. If we all hear and acknowledge each other's fears and pains of loss, this process will be a lot less painful for all of us.

I sincerely understand the fear that the removing of icons will never end and that it will eventually claim everything that's important to you. That's a terrifying thought.

I have similar fears with other issues, so I believe that I truly understand were you're coming from. I don't think the Fleur De Lis will ever be removed, but that doesn't invalidate any genuine fear you may have. I can't promise you or anyone else that it won't happen, but I really don't think it will.

Like I mentioned above, none of the things being protested now are new issues. People have been complaining since the very beginning about confederate statues, the confederate flag, the use of the racist term redskin, the Seminoles mascot and Lee Circle As a society, we just haven't been listening as much as we are now. In this age of the internet, if there was a substantial issue with the Saints Fleur De Lis, then I think we would have heard something significant about it by now.

However, it may actually become an issue one day and the Saints may abandoned it. Another challenging truth of the universe is that nothing is permanent, everything changes. That can be terrifying or it can be inspiring. How we respond is our individual choice. I make a conscious effort to choose to be inspired. I frequently don't succeed in that effort. Fear can be a beast and it can make us act like beasts to each other. That too is a choice.

Until we invent time travel, no one can change history. Removing icons of the confederacy and slavery from our public spaces doesn't change history. It doesn't erase history. All it does is change what we do and do not endorse and embrace as a society.

Statues and icons are about branding. Branding is just that, branding. It's putting a mark of ownership on something. We physically branded slaves like cattle to mark our physical ownership of them. The icons of the confederacy and slavery in our public spaces brand our minds with ideas and values. They burn their marks of ideas into our minds. Those marks have a profound effect on societal and individual belief and behavior. That's why corporations brand their trade-marks onto everything they can. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars doing it, because they know how effective and insidious it is.

Icons of the confederacy and slavery burn the idea into our minds that despite losing the war, despite laws being passed to free the slaves, and despite a constitutional amendment to equally protect the rights of every citizen, black people will never be entitled to equal rights, treatment and protection under the law.

It says to us that slavery was morally correct and black people do not deserve the full enjoyment of the rights of our social contract, the contract we call the Constitution. As long as those icons of the confederacy and slavery stand in our public spaces, that idea will remain insidiously burned into our minds and our zeitgeist. As long as that branding of the icons of the confederacy and slavery is allowed to remain in our public spaces, it damages the validity of our social contract that we have with each other. Without a valid social contract with each other, we will never have peace and we will always be divided.

Fist and foremost, I don't see you as being a member of the tyrannical majority and I understand your sentiment about wanting to have a say. We all want to have a say and we should all have a say. However, having a say does not mean that we get what we want. It just means we are allowed to speak our minds and tell people what we think and want.

In most instances I agree with majority rule, but we have to be as vigilant against tyranny by the majority as we are about all other forms of tyranny.

Federalist No. 51, James Madison, checks and balances, separation of powers, U.S. Constitution, political theory, American government, Federalist Papers

Federalist 51 summary: Federalist 51 explains why James Madison believed the constitutional checks and balances put in place would help create a limited government

billofrightsinstitute.org

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Slavery in the United States was unjust tyranny by the majority. Jim Crow is unjust tyranny by the majority. Most of these icons of the confederacy and slavery were put in our public spaces in the early days of the Jim Crow era to burn into our minds, that even though slavery was abolished, the white majority still wielded unjust tyrannical control over the black minority.

The majority had its way for 400 hundred years. It chose to rule unjustly and tyrannically for those 400 years. In my opinion the unjust, tyrannical majority should no longer get its way on any issue involving equality. They have shown for four centuries that they can not be trusted to be just and fair.

We should hear and understand what they say. We should offer sincere assurances that they will not become the oppressed, but they should no longer be given unjust, tyrannical control just because they are a majority.

I say the rest of this to sincerely share and try to build some common ground. It's a simple as that.

I'm a 54 year old white male that has had an Odyssean journey through life, absent any heroics. I understand the fear of having centuries of oppression turned back on oneself. It can be a terrifying thought and I believe every white male has had that thought at least one time in their life. Though I've felt that fear, I choose not to let it motivate or drive me. I choose, as difficult as it can be at times, to be motivated and driven by empathy, compassion and respect. Here's the very simple truth. The longer blacks are treated oppressively, the more likely it is that we will end up being oppressed ourselves.

If one can't bring themselves to break the cycle of inequality out of empathy, compassion and respect, then do it out of self-preservation.

The woman in this clip speaks with raw and passionate sincerity, which is why there is rough language. I have the clip starting at the very end, because I think she cuts straight to the heart and unadulterated truth we are facing. I highly recommend listening to everything she has to say. Take to heart what she says at the end. Hear her words as an angry and frustrated plea, not as a warning. Please listen with empathy and compassion, because that's ultimately what she wants, needs, and deserves, as do all.of us. Peace and well being to everyone. Thanks for reading.

Wow you totally misunderstood what I was saying by a mile. You do understand I hope that in our republic in most cases the majority rules and the most prevalent thing where majority doesn’t rule is by design and that is the election of the president. I think you know that the electoral college is in place to make your vote important. Letting the people decide what happens is the best way to solve this issue unless you are scared that the majority will not give you your desired outcome.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

“Perfection is the enemy of the good” is a saying attributed to Voltaire, which means (as GMR pointed out) criticizing steps or possible solutions as not being perfect or “this won’t completely eliminate that thing” helps stop ideas that will help or potentially improve something. It’s like if an anti-vax person used the argument “vaccines aren’t 100% effective or safe” to argue against all vaccines; arguing that something isn’t perfect can actually make things worse by scuttling something that would be very beneficial. Your rant about lazy people and mediocrity just shows you don’t understand the saying nor the argument.

I’m not going to address the rest of your post because it’s obvious that you don’t understand the premise nor reasoning, and therefore just decided to go off on a diatribe that has nothing to do with what I posted.

I know who said it and that is why I said I’m not interested in digging up a dead French guy.

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

I don’t care to dig up the dead. Do you know who said that. I did just now. I’ll stick with what I said that perfection is something we should all be trying to achieve. We as humans will never be perfect but that shouldn’t get in the way of trying.

i would hazard a guess that most people would have similar ideas about what is a public good or works/laws that do good for the most people
i would also bet that we all gave VASTLY different ideas about what perfection is
i could guess that your and my definition of perfection to be about 137 degrees apart
if we discussed goodness, we could probably have a working proposal over a weekend
if we fought for perfection we'd either sink to a worthless middle or one of us would be highlander

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

You can tear every statue down and rename every school and street. It won’t change anything because hate comes from the heart.

100% wrong
hate is learned

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

That’s your feelings and not everyones. Put this on a ballot and let the public decide. That’s one of many issues I have with democrats that you guys act on emotion not on facts. I say let the people decide and then live with it. If I were in charge (thank God I’m not) if the people decide to keep the statues I would make it a felony to deface any monument.

most of these statues weren't voted in so why is voting our a priority?

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

i would hazard a guess that most people would have similar ideas about what is a public good or works/laws that do good for the most people
i would also bet that we all gave VASTLY different ideas about what perfection is
i could guess that your and my definition of perfection to be about 137 degrees apart
if we discussed goodness, we could probably have a working proposal over a weekend
if we fought for perfection we'd either sink to a worthless middle or one of us would be highlander

Go back and re read what I posted. We as humans will never be perfect. That is a fact. But if you have the mindset that perfection can never be achieved so why bother trying then you have already lost. If we continue to strive for perfection we will be better today than we were yesterday.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

100% wrong
hate is learned

Yes it is. So if your parents were racist I guess according to you that racist view will stick with you for the rest of your life. My view is hatred is in your heart and unless you change someone’s heart then you can‘t have true change.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

most of these statues weren't voted in so why is voting our a priority?

Because they are part of the makeup of the city and again the city belongs to it’s citizens. Instead what we have been doing is bowing to the demands from a minority of the citizens and not necessarily the majority. The decision should not be one done by a politician.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Because they are part of the makeup of the city and again the city belongs to it’s citizens. Instead what we have been doing is bowing to the demands from a minority of the citizens and not necessarily the majority. The decision should not be one done by a politician.

Why not? Isn't that what we elect representatives and senators for? To make decisions on behalf of the citizens?

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

Why not? Isn't that what we elect representatives and senators for? To make decisions on behalf of the citizens?

Because look at what politicians have been doing. Do you really think the police officers involved in the Brooks case in Atlanta are going to be convicted on murder charges? Have you not seen the videos of the attorney general for Georgia saying 2 weeks ago that according to Georgia law a taser IS considered a lethal weapon then when he announced the charges against the officers he said it wasn’t lethal. What about Gretchen Witmer saying peopl couldn’t go boating but her husband did.

 

[BobE]

Why you got to be like that man?

haha. Sorry I just think they're dumb. Also spoiler alert the South lost.

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

Because they are part of the makeup of the city and again the city belongs to it’s citizens. Instead what we have been doing is bowing to the demands from a minority of the citizens and not necessarily the majority. The decision should not be one done by a politician.

again.
these statues were not put up by majority vote or anything close
usually it was a private group funding the construction and placement of these monuments decades after the events they depict
it's political propaganda/mythologizing not a citizenry wishing to commemorate historical events

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

Yes it is. So if your parents were racist I guess according to you that racist view will stick with you for the rest of your life.

stick to trying to explain your own views, you've got more than enough to work with

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

Go back and re read what I posted. We as humans will never be perfect. That is a fact. But if you have the mindset that perfection can never be achieved so why bother trying then you have already lost. If we continue to strive for perfection we will be better today than we were yesterday.

if we struggle to be better we'll always improve
it we try to be perfect we'll always fail

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Because look at what politicians have been doing. Do you really think the police officers involved in the Brooks case in Atlanta are going to be convicted on murder charges? Have you not seen the videos of the attorney general for Georgia saying 2 weeks ago that according to Georgia law a taser IS considered a lethal weapon then when he announced the charges against the officers he said it wasn’t lethal. What about Gretchen Witmer saying peopl couldn’t go boating but her husband did.

None of this has to do with elected representatives in the legislature.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Wow you totally misunderstood what I was saying by a mile.

I want to understand you, but the only way I can understand you is if you tell me specifically what I misunderstood. What specifically did I misunderstand in your post?

You do understand I hope that in our republic in most cases the majority rules and the most prevalent thing where majority doesn’t rule is by design and that is the election of the president.

Yes, I do understand how our government works and the guiding principles behind how it works.

I think you're mistakenly equating electing government representatives with simple majority rule. Once we elect a representative by simple majority, they are free to vote or act in any way that doesn't violate standing law. That is actually one of the safe guards against tyranny of the majority. Our elected representatives have the power to keep a tyrannical majority in check, at least until they are voted out of their elected offices.

Our governmental structure from the federal level down to the local level has many safeguards in place against simple majority rule, and for good reason. Tyranny by the majority is the hardest form of tyranny to overcome. Look at how long it's taken us to make the little bit of progress that we have made toward actually treating everyone in our society as equals. Hundreds of years going and we still have a lot of work to be done.

When the majority in a society rejects the rights and dignity of any minority group, it is both unjust and almost impossible to overcome. The framer's of our social contract, the Constitution, were both very much aware of and fearful of the threat that tyranny by the majority posed to individual liberty. That's why they worked so hard and carefully to do everything they could to keep tyranny by the majority in check.

I think you know that the electoral college is in place to make your vote important.

This is a whole 'nother discussion, but just for the sake of accuracy, the electoral college system actually makes everyone's votes unequal. Due to the electoral college my vote for president here in CA counts less than your vote there in MS does. It actually makes your vote more important than mine. But again, that's an entirely different discussion.

Letting the people decide what happens is the best way to solve this issue unless you are scared that the majority will not give you your desired outcome.

Like I previously said, we have reached critical mass on the issue of removing these icons of the confederacy and slavery from our public spaces. Allowing tyrannical oppression to continue is the only thing that can force us to keep them in our public spaces.

The majority has already spoken on this issue. It's time to listen.

Voters support 52 - 44 percent removing Confederate statues from public spaces around the country. That is a 19-point swing in the gap of support since an August 23, 2017 poll when 39 percent supported the removal of Confederate statues and 50 percent opposed.

As for renaming military bases that were named after Confederate generals, voters are split 47 - 47 percent.

Poll Results | Quinnipiac University Poll

Quinnipiac University Poll’s list of recent and past poll results for political races, state and national elections, and issues of public concern.

poll.qu.edu

 

[V Chip]

But if you have the mindset that perfection can never be achieved so why bother trying then you have already lost.

You know what is REALLY funny and ironic in this is that the saying “Perfection is the enemy of the good” means EXACTLY what you just typed. Yet you posted the tweet from Larry Elder which was saying in essence “if we remove statues, everything won’t be perfect tomorrow and immediately resolved so why do it?”

You just argued against the very tweet you posted.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

again.
these statues were not put up by majority vote or anything close
usually it was a private group funding the construction and placement of these monuments decades after the events they depict
it's political propaganda/mythologizing not a citizenry wishing to commemorate historical events

Ok pay attention to what I am saying. These are statues of people who were famous soldiers before the wat between the states and yes they were confederate soldiers as well. These statues are in most cases over 100 years old and weather you and I like it or not they are part of our history. That history belongs to us all and thank God it’s not up to you to decide the pieces of that history to keep or get rid of. The nations history belongs to every person here and sometimes you might get offended by some of it. Even the government went back and recognized the confederate soldiers as American soldiers. But I guess you think that sucks too. [Mod Edit Rude and inflammatory]