Should we see the removal of statues like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. (2 Viewers)

[TheRealTruth]

Recently CNN aired an interview where one of the guests suggested what is in the topic.

CNN's Angela Rye: Washington, Jefferson Statues "Need To Come Down"

CNN's Angela Rye called for statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to come down Thursday on the network. "American history is not all glorious... George Washington was a slave owner. We need to call slave owners out for what they are. Whether we think they were protecting American...

www.realclearpolitics.com

I agree with the removal of confederate statues around the country, but should this also be done for founding fathers?

 

[CoolBrees]

If you don’t like “perfection is the enemy of the good,” take it up with Voltaire.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

If you don’t like “perfection is the enemy of the good,” take it up with Voltaire.

I don’t care to dig up the dead. Do you know who said that. I did just now. I’ll stick with what I said that perfection is something we should all be trying to achieve. We as humans will never be perfect but that shouldn’t get in the way of trying.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Who didn't secede from the United States and then go to war just in order to keep his slaves.

And at one point attempted to free them.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

You can tear every statue down and rename every school and street. It won’t change anything because hate comes from the heart. I think most of us on this site came here from Saints report. Are you willing to take down the Fleur De Lis? That symbol was used by French slave owners and branded on slaves. The only thing that will stop racism is changing peoples heart.

 

[LA - L.A.]

You can tear every statue down and rename every school and street. It won’t change anything because hate comes from the heart. I think most of us on this site came here from Saints report. Are you willing to take down the Fleur De Lis? That symbol was used by French slave owners and branded on slaves. The only thing that will stop racism is changing peoples heart.

I agree with you that ending racism requires changing people's hearts.

I think taking down the flags and statues that memorialize, and to some extent glorify, the confederacy has more to do with agreeing that they are icons of a philosophy and value system that is contrary to the American philosophy and value system. I think it is also an acknowledgement that to many of us they are a constant reminder of a very dark and painful time in the life of our society.

Those are the reasons that I think they should come down, not as a means to ending racism.

I look at it like this, would we allow anything to be displayed in public that would memorialize Timothy McVeigh? On the surface it may not seem equivalent, but consider that McVeigh saw himself as a freedom fighter against an oppressive government and there are still to this day many people who also see him as such.

I understand your point about the Fleur De Lis' association with slavery. I think the difference is that it was used by many different cultures for many different reasons long before America existed. It's not an exclusive icon of the confederacy and slavery, so I think we have to look at specific usages.

I don't think any reasonable argument can be made that the Saints usage of it is in any way meant to be a memorialization of slavery or the confederacy. I don't think people make any connection to slavery or the confederacy with they see the Saints' usage of the Fleur De Lis. Conversely, the confederate flag and statutes of confederate generals are exclusively meant to memorialize the confederacy and the confederacy's attempt to perpetuate slavery. I think there is an inherent and inescapable connection between the two.

That's why I think it's time to remove the confederate flag and statues from public spaces and relocate them to historical museums. That's why I think that all references to them should be removed from any official use by all federal, state, county/parish and local government entities.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

I agree with you that ending racism requires changing people's hearts.

I think taking down the flags and statues that memorialize, and to some extent glorify, the confederacy has more to do with agreeing that they are icons of a philosophy and value system that is contrary to the American philosophy and value system. I think it is also an acknowledgement that to many of us they are a constant reminder of a very dark and painful time in the life of our society.

Those are the reasons that I think they should come down, not as a means to ending racism.

I look at it like this, would we allow anything to be displayed in public that would memorialize Timothy McVeigh? On the surface it may not seem equivalent, but consider that McVeigh saw himself as a freedom fighter against an oppressive government and there are still to this day many people who also see him as such.

I understand your point about the Fleur De Lis' association with slavery. I think the difference is that it was used by many different cultures for many different reasons long before America existed. It's not an exclusive icon of the confederacy and slavery, so I think we have to look at specific usages.

I don't think any reasonable argument can be made that the Saints usage of it is in any way meant to be a memorialization of slavery or the confederacy. I don't think people make any connection to slavery or the confederacy with they see the Saints' usage of the Fleur De Lis. Conversely, the confederate flag and statutes of confederate generals are exclusively meant to memorialize the confederacy and the confederacy's attempt to perpetuate slavery. I think there is an inherent and inescapable connection between the two.

That's why I think it's time to remove the confederate flag and statues from public spaces and relocate them to historical museums. That's why I think that all references to them should be removed from any official use by all federal, state, county/parish and local government entities.

You make some interesting points. But let me ask you a few questions. Do you think just 30 years ago anyone was complaining about the name Washington Redskins or about the Florida state Seminoles? Go back 10 years and no one was complaining about Lee Circle. Give it time and all it will take is one news story and the Saints will be forced by the league to get rid of the Fleur. Our history isn’t mine or yours to change as we see fit it belongs to all of us. I would really like all of us to have a say on weather or not the statues stay or go. If we put it to a vote and the majority say take them down then do it. If not then they stay. The same can be done for streets and buildings.

 

[BobE]

I can see why some would say to take them down, but at the same time, I think our Founding Fathers should maybe get a pass because of their other accomplishments in creating the country we call home. Those who fought to keep people in chains are no brainers to me, but with the Founding Fathers, it's a bit more tricky. I'm not sure of my opinion one way or the other actually. This is the first time I've thought about it so it's definitely open to change the more I learn about why they should be taken down. Being a slave owner at that point in history shouldn't mean your statue automatically comes down since it was a common practice that predated them even "founding" the country, IMO. Once slavery was abolished, if you fought to keep slaves, you never should have had a statue in the first place.

I pretty much agree with this and in full disclosure I basically stopped reading this thread at this post. But I will add that IMO I think statues are pretty much stupid all around. It wouldn't bother me if there was no statues of any one any where. With that sad most of these belong at only 3 places

1) on private property
2) Museum or Cemetery (I add these together because some cemeteries are like museums in themselves)
3) at a historical site (Living in Va in less than an hour away from Williamsburg I don't see an issue if they had a statue of some one from the South abd North at a particular spot to mark a battle)

I would also like to add I think battle reenactments are stupid as fork too.

 

[V Chip]

First of all perfection is the enemy of the good....you really just said that? WOW!!! Perfection is what we should be striving to achieve. If you aren’t then you as a human are a lazy person and willing to accept mediocrity. Now to answer your weak attempts to try a form a argument.

“Perfection is the enemy of the good” is a saying attributed to Voltaire, which means (as GMR pointed out) criticizing steps or possible solutions as not being perfect or “this won’t completely eliminate that thing” helps stop ideas that will help or potentially improve something. It’s like if an anti-vax person used the argument “vaccines aren’t 100% effective or safe” to argue against all vaccines; arguing that something isn’t perfect can actually make things worse by scuttling something that would be very beneficial. Your rant about lazy people and mediocrity just shows you don’t understand the saying nor the argument.

I’m not going to address the rest of your post because it’s obvious that you don’t understand the premise nor reasoning, and therefore just decided to go off on a diatribe that has nothing to do with what I posted.

 

[V Chip]

Do you think just 30 years ago anyone was complaining about the name Washington Redskins or about the Florida state Seminoles?

Yes, they were. Not as many as today, but people complained about those names (and other things) back then, too.

Go back 10 years and no one was complaining about Lee Circle.

Again, yes they were.

Give it time and all it will take is one news story and the Saints will be forced by the league to get rid of the Fleur.

Articles have already been published/posted about the Fleur de Lis (obviously — how else would we know about it to discuss it?) and there is no big push to get rid of it.

You’re right — our history is shared. And that’s one reason that there is groundswell to remove things that are antithetical to what we believe as Americans, and more people are able to empathize with the arguments against and reasonably conclude that Confederate monuments and statues should be removed.

 

[LA - L.A.]

You make some interesting points. But let me ask you a few questions. Do you think just 30 years ago anyone was complaining about the name Washington Redskins or about the Florida state Seminoles? Go back 10 years and no one was complaining about Lee Circle.

The answer to your questions is yes, people were complaining about all of those things going back even further than the timelines you gave. Most of us didn't start listening until recently.

I think it's self-evident that a lot of people are listening and agreeing that it's time to remove these icons of the confederacy and slavery from our public spaces and to preserve them in our historical museums. The only statues being destroyed are those that are being taken down by force. Those that are being taken down by choice are being preserved. No history is being erased, it's just being put into a different context. A context that is in alignment with our philosophies and values, as opposed to contradicting them.

It's my opinion that we've reached critical mass on this issue and it is now inevitable that these icons of the confederacy and slavery will be removed from all of our public spaces. It will take a little more time, but they will all eventually be relocated to more appropriate places.

Unfortunately, there is also going to be a lot of resistance to this change, as we are already witnessing. Some of this resistance is going to be violent. There will be more pain. Growth almost always involves pain and disruption. Nothing new can be created without something else being un-created. It's one of the challenging truths of the universe.

I understand that those who have a fondness for these icons are going to suffer a legitimate sense of fear and pain over the loss of something important to them. Loss is a terrible thing for anyone to experience. We all go through great lengths to avoid the fear and pain of loss. It's one of the defining traits that all of us humans have in common. If we all hear and acknowledge each other's fears and pains of loss, this process will be a lot less painful for all of us.

Give it time and all it will take is one news story and the Saints will be forced by the league to get rid of the Fleur.

I sincerely understand the fear that the removing of icons will never end and that it will eventually claim everything that's important to you. That's a terrifying thought.

I have similar fears with other issues, so I believe that I truly understand were you're coming from. I don't think the Fleur De Lis will ever be removed, but that doesn't invalidate any genuine fear you may have. I can't promise you or anyone else that it won't happen, but I really don't think it will.

Like I mentioned above, none of the things being protested now are new issues. People have been complaining since the very beginning about confederate statues, the confederate flag, the use of the racist term redskin, the Seminoles mascot and Lee Circle As a society, we just haven't been listening as much as we are now. In this age of the internet, if there was a substantial issue with the Saints Fleur De Lis, then I think we would have heard something significant about it by now.

However, it may actually become an issue one day and the Saints may abandoned it. Another challenging truth of the universe is that nothing is permanent, everything changes. That can be terrifying or it can be inspiring. How we respond is our individual choice. I make a conscious effort to choose to be inspired. I frequently don't succeed in that effort. Fear can be a beast and it can make us act like beasts to each other. That too is a choice.

Our history isn’t mine or yours to change as we see fit it belongs to all of us.

Until we invent time travel, no one can change history. Removing icons of the confederacy and slavery from our public spaces doesn't change history. It doesn't erase history. All it does is change what we do and do not endorse and embrace as a society.

Statues and icons are about branding. Branding is just that, branding. It's putting a mark of ownership on something. We physically branded slaves like cattle to mark our physical ownership of them. The icons of the confederacy and slavery in our public spaces brand our minds with ideas and values. They burn their marks of ideas into our minds. Those marks have a profound effect on societal and individual belief and behavior. That's why corporations brand their trade-marks onto everything they can. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars doing it, because they know how effective and insidious it is.

Icons of the confederacy and slavery burn the idea into our minds that despite losing the war, despite laws being passed to free the slaves, and despite a constitutional amendment to equally protect the rights of every citizen, black people will never be entitled to equal rights, treatment and protection under the law.

It says to us that slavery was morally correct and black people do not deserve the full enjoyment of the rights of our social contract, the contract we call the Constitution. As long as those icons of the confederacy and slavery stand in our public spaces, that idea will remain insidiously burned into our minds and our zeitgeist. As long as that branding of the icons of the confederacy and slavery is allowed to remain in our public spaces, it damages the validity of our social contract that we have with each other. Without a valid social contract with each other, we will never have peace and we will always be divided.

I would really like all of us to have a say on weather or not the statues stay or go. If we put it to a vote and the majority say take them down then do it. If not then they stay. The same can be done for streets and buildings.

Fist and foremost, I don't see you as being a member of the tyrannical majority and I understand your sentiment about wanting to have a say. We all want to have a say and we should all have a say. However, having a say does not mean that we get what we want. It just means we are allowed to speak our minds and tell people what we think and want.

In most instances I agree with majority rule, but we have to be as vigilant against tyranny by the majority as we are about all other forms of tyranny.

Federalist No. 51, James Madison, checks and balances, separation of powers, U.S. Constitution, political theory, American government, Federalist Papers

Federalist 51 summary: Federalist 51 explains why James Madison believed the constitutional checks and balances put in place would help create a limited government

billofrightsinstitute.org

​

Madison also discusses the way republican government can serve as a check on the power of factions, and the tyranny of the majority. “n the federal republic of the United States… all authority in it will be derived from and dependent on the society, the society itself will be broken into so many parts, interests, and classes of citizens, that the rights of individuals, or of the minority, will be in little danger from interested combinations of the majority.” All of the Constitution’s checks and balances, Madison concludes, serve to preserve liberty by ensuring justice. Madison explained, “Justice is the end of government. It is the end of civil society.”

Slavery in the United States was unjust tyranny by the majority. Jim Crow is unjust tyranny by the majority. Most of these icons of the confederacy and slavery were put in our public spaces in the early days of the Jim Crow era to burn into our minds, that even though slavery was abolished, the white majority still wielded unjust tyrannical control over the black minority.

The majority had its way for 400 hundred years. It chose to rule unjustly and tyrannically for those 400 years. In my opinion the unjust, tyrannical majority should no longer get its way on any issue involving equality. They have shown for four centuries that they can not be trusted to be just and fair.

We should hear and understand what they say. We should offer sincere assurances that they will not become the oppressed, but they should no longer be given unjust, tyrannical control just because they are a majority.

I say the rest of this to sincerely share and try to build some common ground. It's a simple as that.

I'm a 54 year old white male that has had an Odyssean journey through life, absent any heroics. I understand the fear of having centuries of oppression turned back on oneself. It can be a terrifying thought and I believe every white male has had that thought at least one time in their life. Though I've felt that fear, I choose not to let it motivate or drive me. I choose, as difficult as it can be at times, to be motivated and driven by empathy, compassion and respect. Here's the very simple truth. The longer blacks are treated oppressively, the more likely it is that we will end up being oppressed ourselves.

If one can't bring themselves to break the cycle of inequality out of empathy, compassion and respect, then do it out of self-preservation.

The woman in this clip speaks with raw and passionate sincerity, which is why there is rough language. I have the clip starting at the very end, because I think she cuts straight to the heart and unadulterated truth we are facing. I highly recommend listening to everything she has to say. Take to heart what she says at the end. Hear her words as an angry and frustrated plea, not as a warning. Please listen with empathy and compassion, because that's ultimately what she wants, needs, and deserves, as do all.of us. Peace and well being to everyone. Thanks for reading.

 

[Devildog]

You can tear every statue down and rename every school and street. It won’t change anything because hate comes from the heart. I think most of us on this site came here from Saints report. Are you willing to take down the Fleur De Lis? That symbol was used by French slave owners and branded on slaves. The only thing that will stop racism is changing peoples heart.

Cool. Then it shouldn't be a big deal to get rid of them since it doesn't matter.

Oh, but the way, I'm a descendant of 2 southern civil war soldiers and I think it's a farce that people want to keep these things up.

 

[Farb]

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2...f-junipero-serra-francis-scott-key-u-s-grant/

This makes perfect sense.
So this is not about traitors and the like? Now it is about a Spanish catholic missionary, the General that defeated the traitors and helped free the slaves, and a dude who wrote a poem in the war of 1812 that became our national anthem.

It seems the goal post change on the whims of the mob and that is totally acceptable. I don't get it.

 

[Farb]

I would also like to add I think battle reenactments are stupid as fork too.

Why you got to be like that man?

 

[RobF]

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2...f-junipero-serra-francis-scott-key-u-s-grant/

This makes perfect sense.
So this is not about traitors and the like? Now it is about a Spanish catholic missionary, the General that defeated the traitors and helped free the slaves, and a dude who wrote a poem in the war of 1812 that became our national anthem.

It seems the goal post change on the whims of the mob and that is totally acceptable. I don't get it.

It's easy to get when you accept that there isn't one homogeneous group acting together, but different people, making up distinct groups with different opinions, and acting differently.

So, for example, there are naturally people who support taking down statues of slave traders or confederate generals who oppose taking down statues of Grant. Just click on this tweet and look at the replies for some examples:


The goal posts for that group are the same as they have been. They don't change because idiots pull down a statue of Grant. Why would they?

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

Yes, they were. Not as many as today, but people complained about those names (and other things) back then, too.
Again, yes they were.


Articles have already been published/posted about the Fleur de Lis (obviously — how else would we know about it to discuss it?) and there is no big push to get rid of it.

You’re right — our history is shared. And that’s one reason that there is groundswell to remove things that are antithetical to what we believe as Americans, and more people are able to empathize with the arguments against and reasonably conclude that Confederate monuments and statues should be removed.

I don’t remember anyone complaining about the redskins or the seminoles. If you have proof of that then give me a link to it and let me read it.

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

Cool. Then it shouldn't be a big deal to get rid of them since it doesn't matter.

Oh, but the way, I'm a descendant of 2 southern civil war soldiers and I think it's a farce that people want to keep these things up.

That’s your feelings and not everyones. Put this on a ballot and let the public decide. That’s one of many issues I have with democrats that you guys act on emotion not on facts. I say let the people decide and then live with it. If I were in charge (thank God I’m not) if the people decide to keep the statues I would make it a felony to deface any monument.

 

[Farb]

It's easy to get when you accept that there isn't one homogeneous group acting together, but different people, making up distinct groups with different opinions, and acting differently.

The goal posts for that group are the same as they have been. They don't change because idiots pull down a statue of Grant. Why would they?

Gotcha. There are two distinct movements not one large cohesive movement. Maybe that is the problem.
I don't think they help each others causes that much at all. As a matter of fact, one is really hurting the other (the most legitimate) one.

 

[Ayo]

That’s your feelings and not everyones. Put this on a ballot and let the public decide. That’s one of many issues I have with democrats that you guys act on emotion not on facts. I say let the people decide and then live with it. If I were in charge (thank God I’m not) if the people decide to keep the statues I would make it a felony to deface any monument.

The vote would be a problem. Consider a civil rights era case in a sundown town that would bar blacks from white owned restaurants.

the city is 85% white and they put it to a popular vote.

How do you imagine it turns out? Tyranny of the majority is a major concern.