Should we see the removal of statues like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. (2 Viewers)

[TheRealTruth]

Recently CNN aired an interview where one of the guests suggested what is in the topic.

CNN's Angela Rye: Washington, Jefferson Statues "Need To Come Down"

CNN's Angela Rye called for statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to come down Thursday on the network. "American history is not all glorious... George Washington was a slave owner. We need to call slave owners out for what they are. Whether we think they were protecting American...

www.realclearpolitics.com

I agree with the removal of confederate statues around the country, but should this also be done for founding fathers?

 

[surada]

it's weird to see "statue" used in an argument that it's somehow not "tangible." It's hard for me to imagine something more "tangible" for a historical figure long dead and the abstract things they stood for than a statue.

What would be more tangible than an oversized, heavy sculpture?

Moreoever, I don't think that the statues coming down is somehow distinct or different from a larger movement. I think it's actually a reflection of that larger movement and only adds yet another layer of "tangibility." These things are erected because they are symbolically significant.

Many of these were built to remind black people who they were and their rightful 'place' in society. Again, that's something that's tangible - impacting their sense of self and reifying the racist beliefs of the white people who believe they are superior. More tangibility.

The real issues of racism and instutionalized, historical discrimination are precisely and exactly embodied in many of these statues. As I said, their erection is symbolic and important. Therefore, their dismantling or taking down or destruction is symbolic and important.

I think the fact that it is dominating the discussion - and has, now, for years - invalidates your point that it's somehow tangential to 'real issues' and that people are invested in the iconography and semiotic importance - on both sides. You seem to be arguing that it doesn't matter but there's so much direct evidence to the contrary.

I'm Acadian. My ancestors were kicked out of Nova Scotia before the US declared independence. For years, the Acadians wanted an apology from the Queen/British Empire for what they did. Subjecting them to rule, denying their relationships with the Mi'kmaq people (which is actually in my bloodline), trying to force them to 'bend the knee.' They enlisted some to fight, some rebelled, some left.

Until a group led by Joseph Broussard in Haiti and Acadian exiles in Georgia coordinated a move to Louisiana, a place where they could maybe possibly finally call 'home'

That started in 1755. And it doesn't impact my life at all today in some ways. But in others, maybe I'm not even born.

Regardless, the apology finally came in 2003 and I was glad of it. Not because it was anything "tangible" but in an increasingly semiotic society, symbols and icons and representations and gestures mean more than a lot of other "tangible" things.

And if there was a statue of some British leader on horseback - hailed as a hero for expelling the heretical traitors - I'd be happy it came down.

What we have, instead, is this:

because statues are important.

About as 'tangible' as it gets

Do you really believe this?

Many of these were built to remind black people who they were and their rightful 'place' in society. Again, that's something that's tangible - impacting their sense of self and reifying the racist beliefs of the white people who believe they are superior. More tangibility.

 

[bdb13]

Do you really believe this?

Many of these were built to remind black people who they were and their rightful 'place' in society. Again, that's something that's tangible - impacting their sense of self and reifying the racist beliefs of the white people who believe they are superior. More tangibility.

It's true, I think he posted earlier about the time frame that many of these were built in. Why are you skeptical of the claim?

 

[surada]

It's true, I think he posted earlier about the time frame that many of these were built in. Why are you skeptical of the claim?

You posted earlier so that makes it true??? Seriously?

 

[Ayo]

Do you really believe this?

Many of these were built to remind black people who they were and their rightful 'place' in society. Again, that's something that's tangible - impacting their sense of self and reifying the racist beliefs of the white people who believe they are superior. More tangibility.

Yes.

Confederate Statues Were Built To Further A 'White Supremacist Future'

President Trump hasn't mentioned it as he's defended the memorabilia over the past week, but historians say the statues were originally built to send a clear message to black Americans.

www.npr.org

that's from 2017

James Grossman, the executive director of the American Historical Association, says that the increase in statues and monuments was clearly meant to send a message.

"These statues were meant to create legitimate garb for white supremacy," Grossman said. "Why would you put a statue of Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson in 1948 in Baltimore?"

Grossman was referencing the four statues that came down earlier this week in the city. After the violence in Charlottesville, Va., when a counterprotester was killed while demonstrating, and the action in Durham, N.C., where a crowd pulled down a Confederate statue themselves, the mayor of Baltimore ordered that city to remove its statues in the dead of night.

also:

How the US Got So Many Confederate Monuments | HISTORY

These commemorations tell a national story.

www.history.com

“Eventually they started to build [Confederate] monuments,” he says. “The vast majority of them were built between the 1890s and 1950s, which matches up exactly with the era of Jim Crow segregation.” According to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s research, the biggest spike was between 1900 and the 1920s.

In contrast to the earlier memorials that mourned dead soldiers, these monuments tended to glorify leaders of the Confederacy like General Robert E. Lee, former President of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis and General “Thomas Stonewall” Jackson.

Confederate Statues are Being Removed Amid Protests Over George Floyd's Death. Here's What to Know

For some, Confederate statues symbolize heritage. But for many others, they are a symbol of past and present racism in the U.S.

time.com

“It’s not just that the statues represent white supremacy, but the purpose of building the statues was the perpetuation of white supremacy,” James Grossman, executive director of the American Historical Association, tells TIME. “This is why they put them up in the first place; to affirm the centrality of white supremacy to Southern culture.”

By the 1910s, Confederate statues spread throughout most of the South. “That’s when we really begin to see every state across the South participate in these rituals to define the period of the Civil War and slavery as the ‘Lost Cause,'” says Muhammad. “A very white-washed, nostalgic version of a time when white southerners were in power in a way that they had full control over their black population, and that black people were happy slaves.”

A similar pattern happened again during the 1950s after Brown v. Board of Education, when school officials throughout the country began renaming campuses in honor of Confederate soldiers in response to the Supreme Court ruling that they must desegregate.

 

[Infoman]

Not sure if you read my entire post, or my points (and personal experience) about my stance (or if you're just gonna quote the one sentence you want to drone on about).... That said... Something "tangible" is some thing in your everyday life that can be touched for felt, or an asset that can be measured in a metaphorical sense...

So unless you have to look at one everyday in your front yard, or it has a neon sign on it that says... "Here is a symbol of Insert something hateful here"... It's just an inanimate object that I (personally) could not care less about...

Like I said... If you are looking for a reason / external symbol / target / object to place some of your frustration on... I guess a statue is a reasonably safe place to put it... but it's not tangible, and will make no difference in the grand scheme of things whether it's there or not.

As a Native American... I could make it my life work to make sure every sports team logo in the US no longer depicts my people as a damn mascot... but is removing that symbolism really going to make a difference to my cause..? No... It's not... the real work is changing hearts and minds through empathy, education, and understanding.

Removing symbols is busy work that does nothing to achieve the goal. JMO.

I am also a former Soldier of the US Army... I see the Confederate flag as a traitorous flag... I see the symbols of their existence the same way I see a place like Auschwitz being allowed to exist.... as a relic to our less than perfect past. Removing it does not change that past.

 

[Ayo]

Not sure if you read my entire post, or my points (and personal experience) about my stance (or if you're just gonna quote the one sentence you want to drone on about)....

I read the entire thing. I disagree with your entire approach and premise behind it. And I chose to respond to the part because I felt it stood as representative of the faulty logic that led to what followed.

And this further explanation is just more of the same. Again, I read this entire post, too, but am only citing this part because I think it effectively demonstrates my difficulties with the rest of the post, though it might not be quoted

These symbols are important to a lot of people - on both sides. Your thoughts on it/them isn't the sole criterion here. I think reality stands in clear enough opposition to your assertion that these things aren't important.

Further, I explained how they are tied to a larger cause. The statues themselves and the larger movements around the country are not mutually exclusive. Again, I think reality stands as reasonable proof here

 

[bdb13]

You posted earlier so that makes it true??? Seriously?

No, him posting earlier is not what makes it true. the content of his earlier post and now what he just reposted is evidence towards the idea that the claim is true.

 

[Infoman]

These symbols are important to a lot of people - on both sides.

Ask yourself honestly... Are they though?

If they all disappeared tomorrow... would it make any difference in where we are as a country today... I think we both no the answer is... LOL - Nope!

And if that's the case, they are not all that important, and it becomes a fringe issue that has become a focal point to distract us from doing the things that can tangibly enact real change....

Just a thought...

 

[bdb13]

Ask yourself honestly... Are they though?

If they all disappeared tomorrow... would it make any difference in where we are as a country today... I think we both no the answer is... LOL - Nope!

Little difference today, Imo though it will have a positive impact over time.

 

[Ayo]

the real work is changing hearts and minds through empathy, education, and understanding.

and I'm singling this part out because I do agree with it. Just so you know I'm not just looking for disagreement for disagreement's sake. Not really how I roll and want to make sure you understand that.

Once more, I don't understand the mutual exclusivity between statues of racism or hate or white supremacy coming down as somehow distinct from empathy, education, and understanding.

I am a HUGE believer in empathy. It was one of my methodological strands and justifications for the research that I proposed and conducted, the narrative ethnography. A more qualitative methodological approach that allowed for the cases to become more individualized rather than stereotyped or rendered reductive.

I talked about empathy in work that I did on media coverage of Hurricane Katrina. I talked about it on a panel with black university students. I talked about it in the nation's biggest qualitative theory conference. I wrote about it in published pieces.

I'm a *HUGE* believer in empathy. And I want to make that clear - we are in total alignment.

And, education is something else I know a bit about, too.

My counter would be that when these statues come down, there should be educational dialogue around why. I understand that the statues will come down in the midst of a riot where maybe a statue should not have come down.

I mean, if they tore down the Ignatius statue in front of the old department store, I'd say that was pointless and there's no real 'education' to be had there.

But the taking down of traitors or statues erected out of a racist, white supremacist motivation is something that can be incredibly educational. Talk about the history. Talk about the power of a marginalized, oppressed group finally having the social agency of being able to tear it down. Or vote to have it taken down.

That's a major shift in the power structure. And though you might see it differently, it makes it no less true.

The fact that these statues would *never* have been put to a vote to be removed in the 1950s and yet, here we are now and they are, is a clear reflection of how society has moved.

And the more we talk about subordination and marginalization and oppression and the systemic, historical nature of racism in this country - the more we open doors for empathy, in my opinion.

So, I want to make it clear that I am 100% in support of education and empathy. I just happen to believe that the sociohistorical and sociopolitical discourse around these artifacts is wholly aligned with education and empathy. I do not see them as distinct from one another at all. In fact, I see the exact opposite.

 

[Ayo]

Ask yourself honestly... Are they though?

Yes.

Why do you assume that because I arrive at a different conclusion from you that I am somehow being 'dishonest'?

I think I've explained my position clearly now, in more than one post.

I'm not sure where you are getting the indication that I am not being honest with myself.

This isn't a decision I've arrived at lightly, nor easily, nor hastily, nor recently. This is not merely me being prisoner of the moment. I've thought about this a long time and have moved from being against these statues taken down, which was my initial position years ago, to supporting some of them coming down.

And among those reasons are the educational and empathetic I specifically alluded to above.

 

[surada]

Little difference today, Imo though it will have a positive impact over time.

Just eliminate heroes and historical figures?

 

[bdb13]

Just eliminate heroes and historical figures?

I'm only saying I'm for the elimination of statues and monuments that honor the Confederacy. Other than that, we have to go on a case-by-case basis in discussing it, I think.

The Confederacy was not heroic (imo of course, but I'm confident I'm on solid ground here) and removal of those items that honor it does not eliminate those individuals, and what they did, from history.

 

[surada]

I'm only saying I'm for the elimination of statues and monuments that honor the Confederacy. Other than that, we have to go on a case-by-case basis in discussing it, I think.

The Confederacy was not heroic (imo of course, but I'm confident I'm on solid ground here) and removal of those items that honor it does not eliminate those individuals, and what they did, from history.

Its part of our history.. You can't make it go away.

 

[bdb13]

Its part of our history.. You can't make it go away.

You're correct that you can't make history go away.

But you can definitely make statues and monuments that honor traitors go away.

 

[surada]

You're correct that you can't make history go away.

But you can definitely make statues and monuments that honor traitors go away.

Traitors? They weren't traitors.

 

[bdb13]

Traitors? They weren't traitors.

What do you consider them to be?

 

[surada]

What do you consider them to be?

Planters and dirt farmers.