Should we see the removal of statues like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. (1 Viewer)

[TheRealTruth]

Recently CNN aired an interview where one of the guests suggested what is in the topic.

CNN's Angela Rye: Washington, Jefferson Statues "Need To Come Down"

CNN's Angela Rye called for statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to come down Thursday on the network. "American history is not all glorious... George Washington was a slave owner. We need to call slave owners out for what they are. Whether we think they were protecting American...

www.realclearpolitics.com

I agree with the removal of confederate statues around the country, but should this also be done for founding fathers?

 

[Farb]

seemingly he's playing both sides waiting to see if the 'tear it down' movements sputters
i imagine he's giving a different speech in 3 weeks

I agree with you. Once the mob starts screaming, politicians fold like lawn chairs.

 

[surada]

you're conflating monuments with public use structures
statues exist only as a piece of memorabilia - removing them ONLY removes their visual impact
you're are arguing "why not just bulldoze Beauregard school?'
that's nonsensical since it's just cutting off nose to spite your face
obviously schools named after bad people were renamed

I don't understand what you said.. I spent a lot of time in Europe as a kid and I heard the desire to destroy old ruins and artifacts as a solution to Europe's ills. But then I didn't go to Berkeley.

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

I don't understand what you said.. I spent a lot of time in Europe as a kid and I heard the desire to destroy old ruins and artifacts as a solution to Europe's ills. But then I didn't go to Berkeley.

is that the same Europe that kept concentration camps as a reminder of the horrors that humans can enact on each other?

im saying statues vs arenas, et al is not an apt comparison
let's say the public consciousness awoke a few years ago to say "hey, didn't Mercedes have major input in the Nazi war machine?"
razing the superdome is in no way equivalent to getting rid or the RE Lee statue
even someone who lives in atlanta can see that, yeah?

 

[Dadsdream]

you're conflating monuments with public use structures
statues exist only as a piece of memorabilia - removing them ONLY removes their visual impact
you're are arguing "why not just bulldoze Beauregard school?'
that's nonsensical since it's just cutting off nose to spite your face
obviously schools named after bad people were renamed

Pierre GustavTutant Beauregard wasn't a "bad person."

 

[surada]

is that the same Europe that kept concentration camps as a reminder of the horrors that humans can enact on each other?

im saying statues vs arenas, et al is not an apt comparison
let's say the public consciousness awoke a few years ago to say "hey, didn't Mercedes have major input in the Nazi war machine?"
razing the superdome is in no way equivalent to getting rid or the RE Lee statue
even someone who lives in atlanta can see that, yeah?

Did you just blame Europeans for all concentration camps during WW2?

 

[RobF]

Did you just blame Europeans for all concentration camps during WW2?

They clearly did not. Come on.

 

[surada]

They clearly did not. Come on.

Maybe you should READ his post.

 

[RobF]

Maybe you should READ his post.

Neither this, nor your non sequitur of an accusation towards @GMRfellowtraveller, seem particularly constructive.

It is a fact that in Europe some concentration camps have been preserved 'as a reminder of the horrors that humans can enact on each other'. Someone stating so is making an accurate observation; they are not attributing blame. Let alone for "all concentrations camps during WW2", given that there were many concentrations camps outside Europe during World War 2.

Maybe you should try restating whatever point it is you wish to make in a more constructive manner.

 

[Devildog]

I didn't want to start a new thread, so I'm just going to put this here:

Aunt Jemima to change name, remove image from packaging

"We recognize Aunt Jemima’s origins are based on a racial stereotype," Quaker Oats said, adding that the move is an effort "toward progress on racial equality."

www.nbcnews.com

I'm surprised it's taken this long to change that. Wait, no I'm not.

 

[The moose]

I didn't want to start a new thread, so I'm just going to put this here:

Aunt Jemima to change name, remove image from packaging

"We recognize Aunt Jemima’s origins are based on a racial stereotype," Quaker Oats said, adding that the move is an effort "toward progress on racial equality."

www.nbcnews.com

I'm surprised it's taken this long to change that. Wait, no I'm not.

Uncle Ben is gonna fall next!

 

[Farb]

https://springfieldmuseums.org/coll...ton-dc-unveiled-april-14th-1876-currier-ives/
The memorial was created under the initiative of Charlotte Scott of Virginia. Scott donated the first five dollars of her earnings as a free woman toward the project and encouraged other African-Americans to donate in Lincoln’s honor. In the end, the statue was funded entirely by former slaves. Designed by Thomas Ball, it portrays a kneeling man who represents the last man captured under the Fugitive Slave Law. The man, modeled after former slave Archer Alexander, is shown snapping his chains of bondage as Lincoln presents the Emancipation Proclamation.

The description of the original sounds a little bit different than how it was portrayed in the article below, no? Maybe this is better in the 'media literacy' thread?



https://www.nbcboston.com/news/loca...ve-statue-of-lincoln-freed-black-man/2143071/

Edited, not sure what happened to the 2nd article I posted, I guess it was removed, but this one will suffice.

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

Did you just blame Europeans for all concentration camps during WW2?

is it the atlanta thing?

 

[surada]

is it the atlanta thing?

What does this have to do with Atlanta? I am fairly new here.. I moved from Charleston.

 

[Blackcricket]

Just to make it completely clear. I actually think that the issue of slavery WAS the most important one, but that was not the way the politicians at the time thought and just shows that nothing is ever just ying or yang.

You have a quote from Lincoln which makes the Civil War seem like it's not "ying or yang" as to the issue of slavery, but how about the Confederate States Constitution specifically having wording that sustains slavery?

It's easy to point at the U.S. politicians because I do think at the time there was debate about whether abolishing slavery was constitutional or not. But, there is no doubt if you look at quotes from Vice President of the Confederacy, Secession documents from each of the states that participated, there was proactive effort in maintaining slavery period and probably spreading it to other countries like Cuba. You may portray Lincoln as being somewhat ambiguous when it comes to slavery, but there was no doubt in the Confederate's mind where he stood.

 

[surada]

You have a quote from Lincoln which makes the Civil War seem like it's not "ying or yang" as to the issue of slavery, but how about the Confederate States Constitution specifically states wording that sustains slavery?

It's easy to point at the U.S. politicians because I do think at the time there was debate about whether abolishing slavery was constitutional or not. But, there is no doubt if you look at quotes from Vice President of the Confederacy, Secession documents from each of the states that participated, there was proactive effort in maintaining slavery period and probably spreading it to other countries like Cuba. You may portray Lincoln as being somewhat ambiguous when it comes to slavery, but there was no doubt in the Confederate's mind where he stood.

Spread to Cuba?

cuba history .org - Slavery and Rebellion in Cuba
cubahistory.org/en/spanish-settlement/slavery-and-rebellion-in-cuba.html
Slavery and Rebellion in Cuba. The first authorization of the king from Spain to introduce black slaves in Cuba, took place in 1512.

The fundamental cause to bring them was their strength and performance at work in comparison with the aborigines. Spain introduce black slaves in Cuba. Gradually the introduction of Africans were increasing, in the measure in that indigenous manpower went diminishing.

 

[Blackcricket]

Spread to Cuba?

cuba history .org - Slavery and Rebellion in Cuba
cubahistory.org/en/spanish-settlement/slavery-and-rebellion-in-cuba.html
Slavery and Rebellion in Cuba. The first authorization of the king from Spain to introduce black slaves in Cuba, took place in 1512.

The fundamental cause to bring them was their strength and performance at work in comparison with the aborigines. Spain introduce black slaves in Cuba. Gradually the introduction of Africans were increasing, in the measure in that indigenous manpower went diminishing.

Mississippi’s Senator Albert G. Brown, who also was eventually a Confederate States Senator, in 1858 says: "I want a foothold in Central America... because I want to plant slavery there.... I want Cuba, ...” This is but one quote and Cuba as an example, but my point was that the Confederacy not only was sustaining slavery but eventually would want to expand the institution.

 

[surada]

Mississippi’s Senator Albert G. Brown, who also was eventually a Confederate States Senator, in 1858 says: "I want a foothold in Central America... because I want to plant slavery there.... I want Cuba, ...” This is but one quote and Cuba as an example, but my point was that the Confederacy not only was sustaining slavery but eventually would want to expand the institution.

By then slavery had already been in Cuba over 200 years. Maybe he was just ignorant.

 

[Ayo]

I don't see the big issue with statues... Seems like a pointless external target for people get upset about for no reason - when we have real issues to address that are tangible....

it's weird to see "statue" used in an argument that it's somehow not "tangible." It's hard for me to imagine something more "tangible" for a historical figure long dead and the abstract things they stood for than a statue.

What would be more tangible than an oversized, heavy sculpture?

Moreoever, I don't think that the statues coming down is somehow distinct or different from a larger movement. I think it's actually a reflection of that larger movement and only adds yet another layer of "tangibility." These things are erected because they are symbolically significant.

Many of these were built to remind black people who they were and their rightful 'place' in society. Again, that's something that's tangible - impacting their sense of self and reifying the racist beliefs of the white people who believe they are superior. More tangibility.

The real issues of racism and instutionalized, historical discrimination are precisely and exactly embodied in many of these statues. As I said, their erection is symbolic and important. Therefore, their dismantling or taking down or destruction is symbolic and important.

I think the fact that it is dominating the discussion - and has, now, for years - invalidates your point that it's somehow tangential to 'real issues' and that people are invested in the iconography and semiotic importance - on both sides. You seem to be arguing that it doesn't matter but there's so much direct evidence to the contrary.

I'm Acadian. My ancestors were kicked out of Nova Scotia before the US declared independence. For years, the Acadians wanted an apology from the Queen/British Empire for what they did. Subjecting them to rule, denying their relationships with the Mi'kmaq people (which is actually in my bloodline), trying to force them to 'bend the knee.' They enlisted some to fight, some rebelled, some left.

Until a group led by Joseph Broussard in Haiti and Acadian exiles in Georgia coordinated a move to Louisiana, a place where they could maybe possibly finally call 'home'

That started in 1755. And it doesn't impact my life at all today in some ways. But in others, maybe I'm not even born.

Regardless, the apology finally came in 2003 and I was glad of it. Not because it was anything "tangible" but in an increasingly semiotic society, symbols and icons and representations and gestures mean more than a lot of other "tangible" things.

And if there was a statue of some British leader on horseback - hailed as a hero for expelling the heretical traitors - I'd be happy it came down.

What we have, instead, is this:

because statues are important.

About as 'tangible' as it gets