Should we see the removal of statues like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. (1 Viewer)

[TheRealTruth]

Recently CNN aired an interview where one of the guests suggested what is in the topic.

CNN's Angela Rye: Washington, Jefferson Statues "Need To Come Down"

CNN's Angela Rye called for statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to come down Thursday on the network. "American history is not all glorious... George Washington was a slave owner. We need to call slave owners out for what they are. Whether we think they were protecting American...

www.realclearpolitics.com

I agree with the removal of confederate statues around the country, but should this also be done for founding fathers?

 

[V Chip]

This post made me think of something unrelated to statues but still in the vein of holding those in the past accountable for their actions. Not sure if this will come out correctly but here it goes: What about art itself. If a statue of insert historical name(I can't think of a historical figure that everyone would agree with having displayed) and the actual sculptor owned slaves or something, should the statue be taken down because of the creator or does this only apply to the subject?

If this were the case, we'd need to lose the national anthem. Francis Scott Key was a slaveholder and a pretty racist person, as well as writing the third verse of the Star Spangled Banner which contains this:

No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I'm down with this. If the creator of a piece of art or statue turns out to be a horrible person, put a plaque or something on the statue explaining just that and how it doesn't make a difference in what the art/statue stands for.

Critical Role (a live stream D&D show) did something similar when they ran a one shot (single session game) using the Call of Cthulhu RPG. The person running the game basically used the intro to say "Lovecraft wrote great stuff but he was a terrible person. We are playing not because we honor him, but because we honor the new crop of open minded and inclusive writers that are playing in the sandbox he built. They are great, but fork him."

 

[brandon]

Richard Wagner wrote some of the most famous works of classical music (Die Valkyries, Elsa’s Procession to the Cathedral from Lohengrin, for instance).

He was also Hitler’s favorite composer and basically was a Nazi before it was cool.

But his music lives on.

 

[Farb]

https://www.delawareonline.com/stor...er-columbus-caesar-rodney-statues/3175003001/

He was a slave holder...also a signer of the declaration.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/shaw-54th-regiment-memorial-defaced-during-protests/ar-BB14TtDK

This one makes sense, right?

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/then-they-came-for-the-abolitionists/

He was a prominent abolitionist. Why did he get defaced?

So are we at the slippery slope yet or is this still alt-right 'pouncing'?

 

[Heathen]

I don’t think it is that hard to be honest. If you (the subject of a statue) were one of the losers that fought and lost to the United States, after you seceded and took up arms against the Nation, then no statue or hero treatment in the history books for you.

You (again confederate loser) are a traitor to the US and should be treated as such. your descendents should be ashamed of you not given public memorabilia.

you want to look at civil war stuff? Go to a museum.

This is where I'm really mixed about the whole thing. Yes, I agree that statues honoring confederate soldiers should be put in a museum. I think it's silly that we honor them in letting them stand, considering they were an adversary.

I think there's a real sound argument one would have for taking down the American flag. I'm not advocating that, to be clear...Just saying that there is a good argument for it.

The American flag was flown over internment camps in the absolute disgusting treament of japanese prisoners. It was held over the banishment of Native Americans from their own lands. It has flown over the torture and slaughter of innocent civilians all over the world. The list of atrocities under the American flag vastly outnumbers any committed under what was the Confederate battle flag and then stars and bars. Please note, that is not excusing the terrorism committed under that flag or its white supremacist perpetrators -- but to play devil's advocate for argument sake because it is very interesting.

So yes, I think there is a great argument for taking the American flag down. What if the Nazis had won WWI, then reformed themselves to be a progressive, humanitarian society 100 years later? What then would be the argument to take that flag down vs the American one or any other flag under which terrorism and genocide has occurred? Again, just a thought experiment..

It all becomes really messy when you drill down past what is currently widely accepted in 2020/overton window, etc., and I'll be the first to admit I don't know what we do.

 

[zztop]

Thomas Jefferson had several children with one of his slaves. The Monticello estate does not shrug it off, or try to dismiss it, but rather does include information about it on the site

Sally Hemings | Life of Sally Hemings

An in-depth look at Sally Hemings, who was enslaved by Thomas Jefferson and bore several of his children, using research, videos, and oral histories, and the recollections of her son Madison Hemings to tell what is known -- and unknown -- about her life and story.

www.monticello.org

 

[Farb]

Ao yes, I think there is a great argument for taking the American flag down. What if the Nazis had won WWI, then reformed themselves to be a progressive, humanitarian society 100 years later? What then would be the argument to take that flag down vs the American one or any other flag under which terrorism and genocide has occurred? Again, just a thought experiment..

I think that is why you should show pride in it. Regardless of all horrors in the past, our movement forward as a nation should be celebrated not hidden.
Just my quick thought experiment

 

[Heathen]

I think that is why you should show pride in it. Regardless of all horrors in the past, our movement forward as a nation should be celebrated not hidden.
Just my quick thought experiment

Acknowledged.

So what are your thoughts on my thought experience you referenced?

 

[Dadsdream]

You've seen people

I don’t think it is that hard to be honest. If you (the subject of a statue) were one of the losers that fought and lost to the United States, after you seceded and took up arms against the Nation, then no statue or hero treatment in the history books for you.

You (again confederate loser) are a traitor to the US and should be treated as such. your descendents should be ashamed of you not given public memorabilia.

you want to look at civil war stuff? Go to a museum.

My great-great grandfather who was in the siege of Vicksburg disagrees with you.

You really should consider not badmouthing people's ancestors.

 

[Dadsdream]

See these folks? I marched at the head of many parades as a rifleman, color bearer and color guard sergeant in charge in my 20 years of military service.

See this guy? I've been the sergeant presenting the flag to the widow or mother dozens of times.

See this fellow? I've shown school kids the correct folding and respect for the flag dozens of times as well.

I don't think most folks can even fathom the depth of my commitment. It's a deeply personal thing that you can't appreciate unless you've actually worn the uniform and served in these roles.

And earlier in the thread, all these negative things that have been associated with our flag?
Where's the pictures of the Nazi concentration camp victims being liberated by soldiers carrying that flag?

You talk about Japanese internment, let's talk about the starving prisoners we freed in the Pacific, too while we're at it.

Before we wallow in self-recrimination, we might want to consider what the world would look like WITHOUT the American flag.

These are my honest, heart-felt remarks after wading through this thread. I won't wade through it or anything like it again if I can help it.

Very disappointing.

 

[Dragon]

While everyone agrees slavery is abhorrent, it is still a part of American history - the part that belongs in museums.

Again, I think the line is drawn at traitors. That is just my opinion. To me, it just doesn’t seem real complicated.

I feel like this is the “slippery slope argument that was used against marriage equality. Where we reach for a ridiculous hyperbolic equivalency, like what about people marrying a cow?

The argument seems to be promulgated simply because there is no other reason outside of the “slippery slope” to argue for the preservation of statues of traitors to our country.

Frankly it is weird that we ever erected them in the first place. Who puts up and honors statues of war losers?

Remember that history is mostly written by the winners.

I have no beef in this since I'm not american but I am a history buff and married to one as well and over the almost 35 years we have been married, we have travelled extensively and visited many historic places and talked to many different people. We have been to Normandy, sicilly, Gettysburg, ft. Sumpter and at least 50+ historic sites around the world. We have visited Auswich, the Civil Rights Memorial Center in Montgomery and little big horn.

We often come early or late in the day and often find that the volunteer guides have more time just to chat at that time of day. It is a great way to get a better understanding and more personal views on many things.

We did spend the better part of an hour with the guide at Ft, sumpter because we were the only visitors left at the time

And we spoke about then and now. He talked about how his great grandfather was among those who fought for the south and why and the reason he gave is one that at least to a european is very relateable. He said that his great grandfather fought for his state, his family and his neighbors. In his mind those had prevalence compared to the federal government and that said state should have every right to leave a union if they chose to do so,

As you are all aware Europe is also at a critical point in time. UK have just left the EU and many of the other member countries do also have large segments of the population who are not too happy about EU. But the EU have a procedure for how a country can leave the union. Probably precisely because of what happened in the US.

But bottom line is still what he said. Those people fought for their states. Their elected leaders decided on a cause of action which left many with an impossible choice. Be a "traitor" to the union or be a "traitor" to your state and your neighbors!

There are many places around the world where there are statues of "losers" - most of them erected by the local people for whom they fought. They are a part of humankinds history and history is important and should not be forgotten lest we repeat our mistakes. Change the caption on the statues and tell the complete history but don't erase it. It is a part of your heritage - both good and bad.

Just MHO as always

 

[Farb]

Acknowledged.

So what are your thoughts on my thought experience you referenced?

I think that thought line is one of the real problems in this country right now and I was hoping it would come out.
It's not over Confederate or slave owner. The real issue is the belief that this country was created by evil and is so evil at its core, that it needs to be completely destroyed and then rebuilt vs. Our country got alot wrong but it got more right by a long shot than wrong. Our ability as a nation to self correct even after a full on civil war to bring every American under the constitution should be held up as an example for the entire world and actually shows our greatness.
I think that is the main problem in this country. It's hard to have a middle ground in that debate.

 

[CoolBrees]

I see your points. I should have said “who puts up statues of those who failed in a sedition that was for the purpose of maintaining slavery based economy?”

And for the record, I would be ashamed to have a traitor to the United States as my ancestor- just as much as I would if my ancestor had been in the SS or gestapo and I was German.

My family has fought in every major war since the Civil War FOR the United States of America except Korea as we didn’t have anyone of age for it. Traitorous condererates were trying to kill my ancestors in the name of owning other people. No I don’t have to show them any respect. I hold the southern traitors in the same regard I hold any traitor to the United States.

 

[MT15]

Honest question, because I don’t know: who is calling for the country to be completely destroyed? I should say, who other than a few of the fringe on both sides?

This isn’t an attack on Farb. People making these sorts of straw man arguments are often sincere. But it does seem to me that this sort of thing has been done for centuries to resist change. Portray the seekers of change as those who would destroy this country, and get people who aren’t particularly opposed to the specific change being proposed to pull back, lest the “country be completely destroyed”.

We should resist the urge to fall back on this sort of hyperbole. Remember when school integration was going to destroy the country? Or let’s go more recently, remember when gay marriage was going to cause the downfall of civilization?

 

[Heathen]

I think that thought line is one of the real problems in this country right now and I was hoping it would come out.
It's not over Confederate or slave owner. The real issue is the belief that this country was created by evil and is so evil at its core, that it needs to be completely destroyed and then rebuilt vs. Our country got alot wrong but it got more right by a long shot than wrong.

Who has said it must be 'completely destroyed'? I think anyone who sees that comment insinuates that you mean warfare and actual destruction throughout.

If 'destroyed' in your mind means something close to undergoing a renovation at a moral level, then I guess you're right. 'Destroyed'. But I'm thinking that isn't what you meant.

Do you think that the colonialism of the Americas and subsequent removal of Native Americans from their land and slaughter was evil? I think it sounds pretty close to it. I don't think America is 'evil' at it's core as much as it just doesn't largely care about citizens as much as it does corporations and profits. Which, trust me, I don't believe to be moral in a nation that prides itself on being the greatest in many aspects.

Our ability as a nation to self correct even after a full on civil war to bring every American under the constitution should be held up as an example for the entire world and actually shows our greatness.
I think that is the main problem in this country. It's hard to have a middle ground in that debate.

Well I think you won't find many who don't agree that we've come along way.

But that's also issue with this country, in my opinion -- not speaking about you in particular, but an attitude I have observed anecdotally.

It's the thought process that we shouldn't bring on reformational change or should remain silent to it because in the past we've done some great things. I don't know if it's accurate or not, but I would venture to say there are more people who think that way by a long shot than those who want to burn it all down, and even more of us in the middle.

 

[Dadsdream]

I see your points. I should have said “who puts up statues of those who failed in a sedition that was for the purpose of maintaining slavery based economy?”

And for the record, I would be ashamed to have a traitor to the United States as my ancestor- just as much as I would if my ancestor had been in the SS or gestapo and I was German.

My family has fought in every major war since the Civil War FOR the United States of America except Korea as we didn’t have anyone of age for it. Traitorous condererates were trying to kill my ancestors in the name of owning other people. No I don’t have to show them any respect. I hold the southern traitors in the same regard I hold any traitor to the United States.

Well, Coolbrees,

If you want to be ashamed of your ancestors, that's fine.
Don't presume to tell other people how to feel about their ancestors.

In the 20th Century, my father, uncle, brother and I all served in the United States Marines. Prior to that, our family history is also replete with military people, dating back to the Revolutionary War on both sides of the family.

My wife is from Ohio. Her ancestor was on business trip to New Orleans when the Civil War broke out. He made it back to Memphis before he was caught, impressed into the Confederate Army, and assigned to one of the nameless numbered islands north of Memphis, where he died of starvation . . . a born-and-raised blue belly Yankee who died as gallant soldier of the Confederacy, to be sure!

The Confederates liked him well enough that they sent a letter of condolence to his family along with his personal effects, including a Remington Model 1858 revolver, rendered inoperative with the charging handle removed. My mother-in-law presented it to me as a gift.

We're 160 years removed from the Civil War. There are no veterans of that war, no slave owners, or slaves remaining. The recriminations you're spouting are out of touch with reality.

I did the Ancestry.com thing. Shared the results with Guido a few months ago.

I'm 1% Tanzanian. Guess that means?

 

[Tony1Sainstfan]

See these folks? I marched at the head of many parades as a rifleman, color bearer and color guard sergeant in charge in my 20 years of military service.

See this guy? I've been the sergeant presenting the flag to the widow or mother dozens of times.

See this fellow? I've shown school kids the correct folding and respect for the flag dozens of times as well.

I don't think most folks can even fathom the depth of my commitment. It's a deeply personal thing that you can't appreciate unless you've actually worn the uniform and served in these roles.

And earlier in the thread, all these negative things that have been associated with our flag?
Where's the pictures of the Nazi concentration camp victims being liberated by soldiers carrying that flag?

You talk about Japanese internment, let's talk about the starving prisoners we freed in the Pacific, too while we're at it.

Before we wallow in self-recrimination, we might want to consider what the world would look like WITHOUT the American flag.

These are my honest, heart-felt remarks after wading through this thread. I won't wade through it or anything like it again if I can help it.

Very disappointing.

First let me say thank you for your service. This was a great post and great job backing it up. I watched a video last night about the marines body bearers and the training they go through. Their motto is “the last ones to let you down” and they are on point with everything they do and are surpassed by only one group and that’s the army group at the tomb of the unknown soldiers. Both groups are really dedicated to the memoriy of the soldivers and respect for the families. Another great videos I watched was about the marine lioness program which was something I had never heard of.

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

Richard Wagner wrote some of the most famous works of classical music (Die Valkyries, Elsa’s Procession to the Cathedral from Lohengrin, for instance).

He was also Hitler’s favorite composer and basically was a Nazi before it was cool.

But his music lives on.

Wagner was going to be my example, but i push back on the 'lives on' notion
it is VERY difficult for orchestras to schedule wagner these days - the community pushback is just not worth it for arts organizations who operate on such tight and community dependent budgets
and i'm fine with it
not because i have a hardon for cancel culture (regardless of what people think), but because it forces orchestras (or museums or movie producers or book publishers, et al) to be better curators for the audience
who were the jewish composers who were overlooked when Wagner reigned?
who were the female directors who were overlooked when woody allen was #1 director?
are there other female YA fantasy writers?

and this isn't just a cancel thing - i've got no political issue with Shakespeare - it just drives me nuts that with the metric tonnage of plays out there, Shakespeare is like 95% of the theatre that most are exposed to

we need to get over artists hagiography and expose ourselves to much more varied and interesting art