Right wing nuts thread (2 Viewers)

[DaveXA]

Wasn't sure where to put this, but we need a thread for the wing nuts. Lauren Boebert.

 

[LA - L.A.]

To give some perspective to Kinzinger's statement. He is not a fan of the Democratic party or Biden. He's very much an old school, Reagan republican. He also knows that the liars he wants voted out are all Republicans and for them to be voted out, Democratic candidates have to be voted in.

He's calling for people to vote for Democrats, who he's not a fan of, to vote out Republicans. That's how bad and how much of a threat the Republican party has become. Lifelong, die hard Republicans are telling people to vote for Democrats.

 

[DaveXA]

Pretty much this. I don't buy any of the violence threats until after the election. They know any pre-election violence will not be good for the campaign. I think the highest chance there will be violence is in December or January after the election results are made official.

Of course you'll get the usual occasional looney tunes lone wolf, but as a organized effort, that comes later.

 

[SFIDC3]

To give some perspective to Kinzinger's statement. He is not a fan of the Democratic party or Biden. He's very much an old school, Reagan republican. He also knows that the liars he wants voted out are all Republicans and for them to be voted out, Democratic candidates have to be voted in.

He's calling for people to vote for Democrats, who he's not a fan of, to vote out Republicans. That's how bad and how much of a threat the Republican party has become. Lifelong, die hard Republicans are telling people to vote for Democrats.

Country over party.....I probably disagree on policy matters about 80-90% of the time with both him and Liz C.....that said, they are true patriots and I would really like to see a return of their type as the core of the R party.....

 

[LA - L.A.]

Country over party.....I probably disagree on policy matters about 80-90% of the time with both him and Liz C.....that said, they are true patriots and I would really like to see a return of their type as the core of the R party.....

"True patriots" are often the greatest threat and do the greatest damage. The most dangerous people throughout history seized power by first convincing everyone they were "true patriots."

I like what Cheney and Kinzinger are saying and doing, but I have no idea what their motivations truly are. No one besides them know that. Both of them helped to create the environment that lead to the rise of Trump and Maga, even though they knew the were playing with fire.

I wouldn't trust a Republic party full of Cheney and Kinzinger type Republicans, because those are the same type of Republicans that helped create this threat in the first place.

 

[DaveXA]

"True patriots" are often the greatest threat and do the greatest damage. The most dangerous people throughout history seized power by first convincing everyone they were "true patriots."

What do you mean by "true patriots"? That seems to be a pretty nebulous and broad description.

I like what Cheney and Kinzinger are saying and doing, but I have no idea what their motivations truly are. No one besides them know that.

Why not take their word for it then? Some people have genuine motives and actually do want what's best for the country. They're usually the ones who put country ahead of the party. We may not all agree on how to get there, but that doesn't remotely mean they were responsible for the Republican party becoming what it is today. I have my own theories, but that's an entirely different discussion.

Both of them helped to create the environment that lead to the rise of Trump and Maga, even though they knew the were playing with fire.

They may possibly have contributed in part, and so have progressives and so have moderates. They all have played a part in how we habe arrived at this point, but it's actually less than you think. I for one think foreign interference and disinformation being sown that is the primary driver of radical thinking, be it left or right.

I wouldn't trust a Republic party full of Cheney and Kinzinger type Republicans, because those are the same type of Republicans that helped create this threat in the first place.

Nope, as I described above, there's a lot more to it, and they're all part of it.

 

[LA - L.A.]

What do you mean by "true patriots"?

I was referring to another poster saying that Cheney and Kinzinger were true patriots.

Why not take their word for it then? Some people have genuine motives and actually do want what's best for the country.

I give Cheney and Kinzinger benefit of the doubt, but they helped create the threat to our democracy, so I'm not going to give them my complete trust too.

They may possibly have contributed in part, and so have progressives and so have moderates.

I think that's a lot of "all sides" BS. Members of the Republican party for the past 60 years are solely responsible for the threat that it is today.

The Democratic party minimized the influence of the racist, fascist Dixiecrats. The Republican party welcomed the racist, fascist Dixiecrats into their party with open arms and began the Southern Strategy to seize power. Where we are today all started with that Republican strategy. Cheney and Kinzinger embraced and used that strategy when it benefitted them.

I know as a former Republican you are probably never going to be able to accept that truth. The Republican party were it is today was the inevitable destination of the Southern Strategy and it's continued expansion. Republicans ignored the inevitable cliff that was visible in the distance, because it got them what they wanted.

Now that it's a threat to what they want, they are trying to tell themselves either: they and other Republicans had nothing to do with how the Republican party is today, or that it was everybody's fault, not just theirs.

 

[DaveXA]

I was referring to another poster saying that Cheney and Kinzinger were true patriots.

Ok.

I give Cheney and Kinzinger benefit of the doubt, but they helped create the threat to our democracy, so I'm not going to give them my complete trust too.

Not really, but agree to disagree.

I think that's a lot of "all sides" BS. Members of the Republican party for the past 60 years are solely responsible for the threat that it is today.

I completely and emphatically disagree with this. Sorry, but no. The 2 party landscape made this inevitable.

The Democratic party minimized the influence of the racist, fascist Dixiecrats. The Republican party welcomed the racist, fascist Dixiecrats into their party with open arms and began the Southern Strategy to seize power. Where we are today all started with that Republican strategy. Cheney and Kinzinger embraced and used that strategy when it benefitted them.

That's not even half the story, but books have been written and it's a long complicated path that got us here. And yes, all parties are part of it. We obviously aren't gonna agree, and that's fine.

I know as a former Republican you are probably never going to be able to accept that truth.

What truth? All of it, not just part of it.

The Republican party were it is today was the inevitable destination of the Southern Strategy and it's continued expansion. Republicans ignored the inevitable cliff that was visible in the distance, because it got them what they wanted.

I don't think anyone anticipated where this would end up 20 or 30 years ago. I know i didn't. The Republican party is responsible for a lot, yes, but they certainly arent the only part of how things got the way they are.

Now that it's a threat to what they want, they are trying to tell themselves either: they and other Republicans had nothing to do with how the Republican party is today, or that it was everybody's fault, not just theirs.

And I didn't say they had nothing to do with it and I don't think other honest Republicans will say they had nothing to do with it. But none of it happened in a vacuum.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I don't think anyone anticipated where this would end up 20 or 30 years ago. I know i didn't.

I did and I did because several experts warned us about it repeatedly for decades. People just didn't listen, just like they aren't listening now.

The "all sides" BS is going to keep this going and make it worse. The first step toward a solution is honestly admitting what truly caused the problem in the first place.

People appeasing racists fascists for personal benefit is what has gotten us to the point that those racist fascists have taken complete control of the Republican party and are on the brink of taking control of the whole country.

The party that appeased those racist fascists for personal gain was the Republican party. That's a fact no matter how much anyone disagrees with that fact.

If the Republican party didn't appease those racists fascist, those racist fascists wouldn't have the power they have today. They could not have started a viable third party, that's why they knocked on the door of the Republican party after leaving the Democratic party. The Republican party threw the door wide open to those racist fascists and said "come on in, we're happy to have you."

 

[DaveXA]

I did and I did because several experts warned us about it repeatedly for decades. People just didn't listen, just like they aren't listening now.

You do realize people don't read, react or project in the same way that you do. Two people can come to different conclusions about the same subject. Happens all the time. No one has a corner on the truth, the truth just is.

The "all sides" BS is going to keep this going and make it worse. The first step toward a solution is honestly admitting what truly caused the problem in the first place.

You're entitled to your opinion. A lot of people aren't gonna agree with you. And on this point, I don't.

People appeasing racists fascists for personal benefit is what has gotten us to the point that those racist fascists have taken complete control of the Republican party and are on the brink of taking control of the whole country.

I don't think that's close to the entire picture. And that you focus on this and don't acknowledge numerous other factors is short-sighted. It's like focusing solely on chapter 5 in a 10 chapter book.

The party that appeased those racist fascists for personal gain was the Republican party. That's a fact no matter how much anyone disagrees with that fact.

Again, you're focusing on a single factor when there's a lot more to the story.

If the Republican party didn't appease those racists fascist, those racist fascists wouldn't have the power they have today.

Possibly, but again, there are other significant reasons that became possible.

They could not have started a viable third party, that's why they knocked on the door of the Republican party after leaving the Democratic party. The Republican party threw the door wide open to those racist fascists and said "come on in, we're happy to have you."

I mean, I'm not gonna change your mind. You're committed to that. I respect your POV even if I don't agree. I hate what the Party has become, and I have my theories on how they lost their way, but that's a whole other discussion I don't really have time to do justice right now.

 

[LA - L.A.]

No one has a corner on the truth, the truth just is.

You're entitled to your opinion.

Let me lead with a quote attributed to Isaac Newton, "truth is ever to be found in simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." I very much subscribe to this point of view.

I think the best way to solve, or preferably avoid, a problem is to first identify the conditions that are necessary for the problem to occur. Without those conditions, then no amount of other sufficient conditions will lead to the problem occurring. Eliminating sufficient conditions without addressing the necessary conditions is like playing whack-a-mole, because new sufficient conditions keep popping up.

Trump and MAGA could not have gotten where they are today without the Republican party welcoming the Dixiecrats and engaging the Southern Strategy in which they appeased and appealed to racist fascists to gain political power.

Sure, maybe a different threat would have arisen that we would be facing today, but that's hypothetical and we hypothetically would have to look at what was necessary for that threat to happen.

The actual real threat we face right now is Trump and MAGA. It could not have happened without the Republican party accepting, appeasing and appealing to racist fascists. None of the other contributing factors you allude to could have made Trump and MAGA the threat that it is today without the Republican party accepting, appeasing and appealing to racist fascists for the past 60ish years to gain political power.

That's why the responsibility and accountability for Trump and MAGA falls squarely on the shoulders of the Republicans. Republicans have had 60ish years of opportunity to change course, instead the Republican leaders honed in on the course and Republican voters continued to vote those leaders into office to get what they wanted from those leaders.

People know that driving while intoxicated is dangerous, even if they are in denial about it. If someone drives while intoxicated and veers into another car, then they are solely responsible and accountable for that crash. Even if there were other contributing factors like bad weather, poor lighting, poor street signage, other drivers not driving defensively enough, the responsibility and accountability for the crash rests solely on the person who chose to drive while intoxicated.

Even if the intoxicated driver honestly believed they were fine to drive, they were amply warned and chose to ignore those warnings, so the car crash falls squarely on their shoulders alone. If they don't choose to drive while intoxicated, the car crash they caused does not happen.

Regarding the difference between fact and opinion, people disagreeing with a fact does not make that fact an opinion. If it did, then it would just be an opinion that the Earth is round, that the Earth revolves around the sun and it would reduce all facts to just opinions, because for every fact there are people who disagree with that fact.

Saying a fact is just an opinion, because you don't accept the fact as being true is a denial of the truth.

Is it not a fact that Dixiecrats left the Democratic party and were welcomed into the Republican party?

Is it not a fact that Dixiecrats were racist fascists?

Is it not a fact that the Southern Strategy was the primary reason Republicans gained power?

Is it not a fact that the Southern Strategy intentionally appeased and appealed to racists fascists?

Is it not a fact that Trump and MAGA are racist fascists and have seized control of the Republican party from within the Republican party?

Is it not a fact that Trump and MAGA are on the verge of possibly seizing control of our government?

 

[DaveXA]

Let me lead with a quote attributed to Isaac Newton, "truth is ever to be found in simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." I very much subscribe to this point of view.

I think the best way to solve, or preferably avoid, a problem is to first identify the conditions that are necessary for the problem to occur. Without those conditions, then no amount of other sufficient conditions will lead to the problem occurring. Eliminating sufficient conditions without addressing the necessary conditions is like playing whack-a-mole, because new sufficient conditions keep popping up.

Trump and MAGA could not have gotten where they are today without the Republican party welcoming the Dixiecrats and engaging the Southern Strategy in which they appeased and appealed to racist fascists to gain political power.

Sure, maybe a different threat would have arisen that we would be facing today, but that's hypothetical and we hypothetically would have to look at what was necessary for that threat to happen.

The actual real threat we face right now is Trump and MAGA. It could not have happened without the Republican party accepting, appeasing and appealing to racist fascists. None of the other contributing factors you allude to could have made Trump and MAGA the threat that it is today without the Republican party accepting, appeasing and appealing to racist fascists for the past 60ish years to gain political power.

That's why the responsibility and accountability for Trump and MAGA falls squarely on the shoulders of the Republicans. Republicans have had 60ish years of opportunity to change course, instead the Republican leaders honed in on the course and Republican voters continued to vote those leaders into office to get what they wanted from those leaders.

People know that driving while intoxicated is dangerous, even if they are in denial about it. If someone drives while intoxicated and veers into another car, then they are solely responsible and accountable for that crash. Even if there were other contributing factors like bad weather, poor lighting, poor street signage, other drivers not driving defensively enough, the responsibility and accountability for the crash rests solely on the person who chose to drive while intoxicated.

Even if the intoxicated driver honestly believed they were fine to drive, they were amply warned and chose to ignore those warnings, so the car crash falls squarely on their shoulders alone. If they don't choose to drive while intoxicated, the car crash they caused does not happen.

Regarding the difference between fact and opinion, people disagreeing with a fact does not make that fact an opinion. If it did, then it would just be an opinion that the Earth is round, that the Earth revolves around the sun and it would reduce all facts to just opinions, because for every fact there are people who disagree with that fact.

Saying a fact is just an opinion, because you don't accept the fact as being true is a denial of the truth.

Is it not a fact that Dixiecrats left the Democratic party and were welcomed into the Republican party?

Is it not a fact that Dixiecrats were racist fascists?

Is it not a fact that the Southern Strategy was the primary reason Republicans gained power?

Is it not a fact that the Southern Strategy intentionally appeased and appealed to racists fascists?

Is it not a fact that Trump and MAGA are racist fascists and have seized control of the Republican party from within the Republican party?

Is it not a fact that Trump and MAGA are on the verge of possibly seizing control of our government?

I stand by what I said. I might circle back and go point by point when I have some time.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I stand by what I said. I might circle back and go point by point when I have some time.

I know you stand by what you believe. I just disagree with you and I consider this issue a really important one, so I'm being vocal and tenacious in disagreeing. I know it takes a lot of time to respond, so no worries if you don't respond. I think I've said all I want to say on the subject and have probably spent too much of my time on it.

 

[DaveXA]

I know you stand by what you believe. I just disagree with you and I consider this issue a really important one, so I'm being vocal and tenacious in disagreeing. I know it takes a lot of time to respond, so no worries if you don't respond. I think I've said all I want to say on the subject and have probably spent too much of my time on it.

Fair enough.

 

[MT15]

The words of Trump and the GOP leadership are responsible for this. It’s shameful. It’s a fascist tactic.

 

[SFIDC3]

"True patriots" are often the greatest threat and do the greatest damage. The most dangerous people throughout history seized power by first convincing everyone they were "true patriots."

By "true patriots" I meant real patriots, those that put country before party or anything else.....what you are defining as true patriots I would define as radical nationalists....

I completely and emphatically disagree with this. Sorry, but no. The 2 party landscape made this inevitable.

Hard disagree, the both sides utter BS.....only one side was going to go the fully authoritarian, dictator, Christian nationalist route.....as your respondent said, the clues have been there for years.....

 

[DaveXA]

By "true patriots" I meant real patriots, those that put country before party or anything else.....what you are defining as true patriots I would define as radical nationalists....



Hard disagree, the both sides utter BS.....only one side was going to go the fully authoritarian, dictator, Christian nationalist route.....as your respondent said, the clues have been there for years.....

I'm not talking about the "both sides utter BS" as you put it. I'm talking about the 2 party system leading to what is essentially going to end up as a civil war. There's no room in the middle in that setup. Where do you think all of the moderates have gone? They don't really have a voice. At least not in a while.

 

[SFIDC3]

I'm not talking about the "both sides utter BS" as you put it. I'm talking about the 2 party system leading to what is essentially going to end up as a civil war. There's no room in the middle in that setup. Where do you think all of the moderates have gone? They don't really have a voice. At least not in a while.

There are plenty of moderates in the D party, there are very few in the current R party.....which kind of supports my point.....There is plenty about the D's I'm not down with but they are at least "sane"......It's not so much the flaw of the 2 party system, it's more just one party going off the rails because they want to bring us back to the dark ages, if you don't understand that you aren't paying attention.....

 

[DaveXA]

There are plenty of moderates in the D party, there are very few in the current R party.....which kind of supports my point.....There is plenty about the D's I'm not down with but they are at least "sane"......It's not so much the flaw of the 2 party system, it's more just one party going off the rails because they want to bring us back to the dark ages, if you don't understand that you aren't paying attention.....

It's a case of radicals taking over a party. It's not like that couldn't happen on the left either. It's not happening now, but understand that it certainly could. You don't have to look far in other countries to see the pendulum swing entirely the other way. I can acknowledge that the Republican party is a shell of what it once was. What I won't say is that people in the party foresaw this. Most would have said you're crazy, but the party essentially turned into a fascist one, and that was a definitely something I never would have expected when I was a young Republican. It wasn't remotely like that 20-30 years ago.

Regardless, I hate what the Party has become and I'm not sure whether the sane people in the parry should just leave en masse and start a new conservative party or try to oust Trump and MAGA and rebuild from within. No idea what the right answer is. All I know is I refuse to be a part of a party that allows Trump and MAGA to control them.