New Poll on Police Shooting of Black Men (1 Viewer)

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Farb

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https://www.skeptic.com/research-center/reports/Research-Report-CUPES-007.pdf

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(the answer is at the maximum 27)

I heard about this new poll from a podcast I listen to on the regular. To me, this is disturbing to say the least. We allowed idiots to burn down private businesses and cities because of the horrible reporting and the narrative pushed by politicians the media.

If we as a country are going to move forward (I am not so sure we do move forward as a country) we need to have actual fact based discussions that are not based on feeling and implied intent. There is a rush in the country to label any perceived injustice as race based and obviously this is not the case in reality but it does make nice headlines and gather votes.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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I looked at the link @Saintamaniac provided. I have seen that before. There could be several factors in why a black males would receive harsher sentencing than a white for the same crime and with the same criminal background. The main reason would more than not be racism. The other reason might be economic background (the use of a private lawyer as opposed to a court appointed one often brings better results at trial/hearing).
So, while I will grant you that racism is alive and well in this country (all races) I still have yet to see the proof that the system itself is racist. In fact, in looking over some details of this, I see where Florida, for example, has passed legislation to almost take sentencing out of the human hand and create a point type system. Did it work, not all the time because obviously some judges/DAs are racist. In order to prove 'systemic racisms' you have to show the system in racist, not the people in the system. I have yet to see proof of this, in fact, I see a system actively trying to correct and weed out racists.
Again with the implied intent.

Facts and proof are exactly what I am asking for. What I am not asking for is emotional responses. That would be a response 'racism'. I am specifically talking about the constant claims of 'systemic racism'.

The great thing about this board, if you so chose, this thread will end right here with you. Just don't click and participate. Free country and all that....
I think you are working with a different definition of systemic racism than the rest of us, since you acknowledged basic facts (like harsher sentences for black Americans, and economic realities - ie you implied that black people are more likely to be poor, etc) which is the definition of systemic racism. There is something in the system that produces different results based on race. There is nothing about intent in the definition. Just, does the system produce different results based on race. Note, this does not mean that individuals of a certain race can not succeed or do well - it's just that on average they are less likely to.

The question then is why. Do you think it's a coincidence that the race with one of the poorest results in this system, just so happens to be the same race that was enslaved, and then by law were prevented from succeeded for a few more decades, and then by policy for a few more decades were deliberately targeted economically and through the criminal justice system?

Do you think, just maybe, there are residual effects from all that deliberate policy that still has an effect today?

Further, you start a thread decrying exaggeration and assumed intent, but in the very start you exaggerate by talking about cities burned to the ground and assume intent on the part of the media and politicians. That gives the impression that what you really mean is you just don't like it when other people do it - which is human of course, but sort of derails your post from the very beginning.
 

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Again with the implied intent.

Facts and proof are exactly what I am asking for. What I am not asking for is emotional responses. That would be a response 'racism'. I am specifically talking about the constant claims of 'systemic racism'.

The great thing about this board, if you so chose, this thread will end right here with you. Just don't click and participate. Free country and all that....
"I'm not questioning your honor, Lord Janos. I'm denying it's existence." -Tyrion

There is no implication about intent. I'm full on telling you that you aren't interested in facts. The proof is in your posting. By post #2 (two!), your "facts" were challenged and have been thereafter and you've yet to address any of it adequately. You want "fact based discussion" but then assert that cities were burned over the summer because of protesting related to the BLM umbrella. A mischaracterization. A lie. A feeling.

There is an entire thread on this board, started by myself (no less!), that proves that feeling to be demonstrably false. You present a feeling based poll as fact that systemic racism doesn't exist, it's perceived. Us black folks are lazy and stupid and listen to the media too much. How is that for implication?

You're right. Free country. And this board is great. I can not click. Or, since I'm free, I can come all up in this muther forker and express my opinion all the live long day. You're free to start an OP, in bad faith, and I'm free to express it is in bad faith and encourage others to not give it any oxygen. Everyone will continue to do as they please. Including me.

My reputation proceeds me on this topic. I freely welcome good faith discussion on race. This, sir, is not. And I will call it out as such.
 
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Farb

Farb

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"I'm not questioning your honor, Lord Janos. I'm denying it's existence." -Tyrion

There is no implication about intent. I'm full on telling you that you aren't interested in facts. The proof is in your posting. By post #2 (two!), your "facts" were challenged and have been thereafter and you've yet to address any of it adequately. You want "fact based discussion" but then assert that cities were burned over the summer because of protesting related to the BLM umbrella. A mischaracterization. A lie. A feeling.

There is an entire thread on this board, started by myself (no less!), that proves that feeling to be demonstrably false. You present a feeling based poll as fact that systemic racism doesn't exist, it's perceived. Us black folks are lazy and stupid and listen to the media too much. How is that for implication?

You're right. Free country. And this board is great. I can not click. Or, since I'm free, I can come all up in this muther forker and express my opinion all the live long day. You're free to start an OP, in bad faith, and I'm free to express it is in bad faith and encourage others to not give it any oxygen. Everyone will continue to do as they please. Including me.

My reputation proceeds me on this topic. I freely welcome good faith discussion on race. This, sir, is not. And I will call it out as such.
Hey Man, glad you decided to come back! Cool quote too! Nothing is an emotional reaction if you quote GOT.....

Cities (Minneapolis, St. Paul, Kenosha were burned and many, many more were rioted and looted over the summer as a direct result of BLM propaganda and false narratives embraced and pushed by both our media and politicians. You can call it a lie, a mischaracterization or whatever you like, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the truth.

You are correct, I don't think the system that all American's live under currently is racist toward minorities. Are people racist, yes. Are some of those people in positions of power..you bet. Should that be changed? Yes. Is destroying a private business the best way to do that...No.

Was the system racist in the past in country. No doubt about it. Currently, it is not toward minorities. Can we as a country make up for that past, I think so, with conversation. Again, will rioting accomplish that? No.

Did I say all 'black folk are stupid and lazy and listen to the media too much?" I did not.

You can also call me and what you perceive to be my intentions out as much as you would like, again, free country and all and to be completely honest, I really don't care.

Also for clarity lets all use this definition:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/systemic-racism

policies and practices that exist throughout a whole society or organization, and that result in and support a continued unfair advantage to some people and unfair or harmful treatment of others based on race
 

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Not following, unless you are claiming the whole capital thing was anti-maskers and ani-lockdowners. Is that what you are implying?
Not one city burned down.

Not one.

Extreme hyperbole pushed by media and politicians and just regurgitated by an under informed group of people.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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Hey Man, glad you decided to come back! Cool quote too! Nothing is an emotional reaction if you quote GOT.....
You do realize sarcasm is an emotional reaction right? Either you want to have a discussion without emotional content or you don't. You can't expect people to not react emotionally and without exaggeration if you do the exact same thing.


Cities (Minneapolis, St. Paul, Kenosha were burned and many, many more were rioted and looted over the summer as a direct result of BLM propaganda and false narratives embraced and pushed by both our media and politicians. You can call it a lie, a mischaracterization or whatever you like, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the truth.
Again, this is both an exaggeration and a mischaracterization. First some businesses within Minneapolis, St. Paul, etc were burned and looted, most of those cities were just fine. So, exaggeration. Second, you are assuming that people were only riled up by these "false narratives" and not based on their own thoughts -- ie, you are implying that black people don't really know what's happening to them, and they only get mad when the media lies to them about it.

You are correct, I don't think the system that all American's live under currently is racist toward minorities. Are people racist, yes. Are some of those people in positions of power..you bet. Should that be changed? Yes. Is destroying a private business the best way to do that...No.

Was the system racist in the past in country. No doubt about it. Currently, it is not toward minorities. Can we as a country make up for that past, I think so, with conversation. Again, will rioting accomplish that? No.
Neither will condescending posts pretending to want a conversation, all the while decrying the same rhetorical practices that you are employing, in this very thread.

Did I say all 'black folk are stupid and lazy and listen to the media too much?" I did not.
But you are implying it. You said those riots were only started because of the media and politicians pushing a false narrative -- which means you don't think black people feel like the system is weighted against them on their own. They're too stupid to determine what is actually happening to them, and instead listen to what the media is telling them.

You can also call me and what you perceive to be my intentions out as much as you would like, again, free country and all and to be completely honest, I really don't care.


Great -- and the evidence has already been supplied. Black Americans are more likely to serve tougher sentences for the same crimes than white Americans. Further, black Americans are more likely to be targeted by drug charges than white Americans. The 3 strikes law was particularly harmful to black Americans.

Even the way the law is set up -- for example wage theft is treated as a civil matter, despite the fact that it cause far more material damage than property theft. And most wage theft is committed by white Americans and property theft is more likely committed by minorities.

And on, and on.

This doesn't even get into historical damages, which sets minorities back-- which you acknowledge happened, but seem to believe it has no last effect today, which just seems bizarre to me.
 

brandon

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The question then is why. Do you think it's a coincidence that the race with one of the poorest results in this system, just so happens to be the same race that was enslaved, and then by law were prevented from succeeded for a few more decades, and then by policy for a few more decades were deliberately targeted economically and through the criminal justice system?

Do you think, just maybe, there are residual effects from all that deliberate policy that still has an effect today?
This is the crux, @Farb.

Either you can agree that the reason for the systemic racism that you admit exists (as @UncleTrvlingJim pointed out) is caused by the residual effects of historical systemic oppression, or you believe that there is some other reason for those things.

And what could that other reason be? “Cultural”?

I can see why you dodged this question entirely, but I wanted to draw attention to the dodge and see if you’d be willing to answer.
 

V Chip

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By the very definition you posted, you have admitted there is systemic racism in America.

“Policies and practices that exist... and that result in and support a ... unfair or harmful treatment of others based on race.”

In practice, black people receive harsher sentences for the same crime with the same background (prior criminal history) as other races in America. That is undeniable. Therefore, your definition fits in that one item alone, not even counting the many other ways that policies (stop and frisk or random stops, job/housing/loan discrimination based on assumed race by name only, racial profiling, school funding by property value instead of students, etc) negatively affect POC.
 

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Cities (Minneapolis, St. Paul, Kenosha were burned and many, many more were rioted and looted over the summer as a direct result of BLM propaganda and false narratives embraced and pushed by both our media and politicians. You can call it a lie, a mischaracterization or whatever you like, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the truth.
It's worth noting as well that the BLM protests in 2020 were just the latest in a long history of racial riots/protests/demonstrations/uprisings dating back to 1712. This site has a fascinating history. Just look at the list.


The way you use the phrase "false narrative" sounds like this "racial problem" was just blown all of out proportion. 300 years is long time to sustain a false narrative. Maybe there is something to this "system stuff"?

You think 2020 was bad, it was nothing compared to 1967. i grew up knowing that year as the Summer of Love. African Americans knew it as "The Long Hot Summer."
 

GMRfellowtraveller

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Hey Man, glad you decided to come back! Cool quote too! Nothing is an emotional reaction if you quote GOT.....

Cities (Minneapolis, St. Paul, Kenosha were burned and many, many more were rioted and looted over the summer as a direct result of BLM propaganda and false narratives embraced and pushed by both our media and politicians. You can call it a lie, a mischaracterization or whatever you like, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the truth.

You are correct, I don't think the system that all American's live under currently is racist toward minorities. Are people racist, yes. Are some of those people in positions of power..you bet. Should that be changed? Yes. Is destroying a private business the best way to do that...No.

Was the system racist in the past in country. No doubt about it. Currently, it is not toward minorities. Can we as a country make up for that past, I think so, with conversation. Again, will rioting accomplish that? No.

Did I say all 'black folk are stupid and lazy and listen to the media too much?" I did not.

You can also call me and what you perceive to be my intentions out as much as you would like, again, free country and all and to be completely honest, I really don't care.

Also for clarity lets all use this definition:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/systemic-racism

policies and practices that exist throughout a whole society or organization, and that result in and support a continued unfair advantage to some people and unfair or harmful treatment of others based on race
here's the thing - your opinion doesn't matter - and saying your opinion is 'fact' doesn't make it factual
MANY posters have taken you in hand and walked you around the whole globe only for you to say "it's a fact that the earth is flat"
and at this point it does not matter whether you are unwilling or unable to understand the obvious and provable, the FACT is that you are not doing it and thus your opinion carries no weight
like, none
 

samiam5211

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i suspect that more buildings burned down in Texas and Louisiana during the recent winter weather than in protests during the past two years in the entire country.

If buildings burning is the true concern, the focus should be on our aging infrastructure, not police reform protests.
 
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Farb

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Just had to time to read these since I was off line all weekend. I had a great weekend!

Maybe I wasn't clear originally and that might be my fault, but I don't think I said "black people' are misled by the media about the false narrative. I meant the left. There are white and black lefters. Most of my black friends tend to feel more along the lines of the way I think (granted, they are your more religious/conservative types). The majority of the idiots in the streets rioting and warming up building with fire were white people. So, I hope I cleared that up and we can all stop pretending I am calling out black people for the rioting, looting and destruction only. The only similarity the ones that started the fires, rioted, looted, attacked innocent civilians is their political ideals.

As far as systemic racism, I am still waiting on someone to show me a law or policy that is directly racist. Not racist people, since we all can show dolts no matter what color they are. I think, also, maybe a good discussion would be what policies that are supposed to be helpful for minorities, built upon the bigotry of low expectations, are actually detrimental to those communities.

No, @Yggdrasill, I have not had time to look at the stuff you posted. I will, but I honestly cant say when, but I will try at some point.

As far as the cities burning, I guess I was being hyperbolic then. I didn't know we considered Berlin in 1945 untouched since a few buildings were still standing. Not every building within the map lines of a city were destroyed or looted, so I stand corrected. But I do think 1 private business being destroyed because someone is upset at the state is stupid. I also think gaslighting is stupid but I here we are.
 
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Farb

Farb

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i suspect that more buildings burned down in Texas and Louisiana during the recent winter weather than in protests during the past two years in the entire country.

If buildings burning is the true concern, the focus should be on our aging infrastructure, not police reform protests.
cause and effect are important in this discussion. Buy yes, nice try on the gaslighting attempt.
 

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As far as the cities burning, I guess I was being hyperbolic then. I didn't know we considered Berlin in 1945 untouched since a few buildings were still standing. Not every building within the map lines of a city were destroyed or looted, so I stand corrected. But I do think 1 private business being destroyed because someone is upset at the state is stupid. I also think gaslighting is stupid but I here we are.
You do realize most of the rioting, and damage was localized to just a couple of blocks?

The only similarity the ones that started the fires, rioted, looted, attacked innocent civilians is their political ideals.
There was a white supremist caught breaking windows in the Minneapolis riot.

 
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You do realize most of the rioting, and damage was localized to just a couple of blocks?



There was a white supremist caught breaking windows in the Minneapolis riot.

Is that the standard now? As long as riots only damage private businesses and homes in a 'few block' area, it is no big deal? This is called gaslighting.

Maybe if we can catch him, he can lead us to the secret White Supremacy hideout and we can catch the other 99 white supremacist in this country!

Yes, I am being sarcastic. I know there might be a few more white supremacist in this country but you guys tend to see them behind every tree and in every alley. (I still think it is because of the political narrative pushed by the media and politicians).
 
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Yea, that’s my point.

Buildings are more important to you when they burn in certain cities when certain people can be blamed.
If the building I own and have my business in gets burned because someone is upset with the government for whatever reason, then you would be correct. I would care a lot more than when those same idiots loot and burn a Target down in Wisconsin. Human nature and all.
I also care when a small business owner is attached by a mob when trying to defend the building/business he owns by someone who is upset with the state.

So I guess you are correct. I don't have a deep underlying love to protect buildings because they are buildings. That seems odd to me but I am sure someone on Twitter is in-love with buildings....
 

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Just had to time to read these since I was off line all weekend. I had a great weekend!

...

As far as systemic racism, I am still waiting on someone to show me a law or policy that is directly racist. Not racist people, since we all can show dolts no matter what color they are. I think, also, maybe a good discussion would be what policies that are supposed to be helpful for minorities, built upon the bigotry of low expectations, are actually detrimental to those communities.
Did you read all of them? Because @UncleTrvlingJim made a good post explaining that:

I think you are working with a different definition of systemic racism than the rest of us, since you acknowledged basic facts (like harsher sentences for black Americans, and economic realities - ie you implied that black people are more likely to be poor, etc) which is the definition of systemic racism. There is something in the system that produces different results based on race. There is nothing about intent in the definition. Just, does the system produce different results based on race. Note, this does not mean that individuals of a certain race can not succeed or do well - it's just that on average they are less likely to.
But you're still asking for a 'law or policy that is directly racist' to show that systemic racism exists?

That's not how that works. A system that does include directly racist laws is obviously going to be systemically racist in its outcomes, but it should be immediately obvious that a system with indirectly racist laws and policies will be too. And once you've accepted that, it should become apparent that there are a lot of laws, policies, and ongoing prejudices that clearly fit into that category. Voting laws, perceptions of poverty, criminality, aptitude, attitude, disproportionate impact from policies like three strikes laws, racial bias in bail decisions... it's really not hard to see it. I can see it from over 3,000 miles away, you should be able to see it from there.

'Systemic racism' doesn't mean "a system that is overtly and consciously racist"; it just means racism that is in the system. While that can be overt, it can also be less so, and it can also be a self-perpetuating legacy of prejudicial perceptions, laws, and policies from previous overt racism.
 

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