New Poll on Police Shooting of Black Men (1 Viewer)

[Farb]

https://www.skeptic.com/research-center/reports/Research-Report-CUPES-007.pdf

(the answer is at the maximum 27)

I heard about this new poll from a podcast I listen to on the regular. To me, this is disturbing to say the least. We allowed idiots to burn down private businesses and cities because of the horrible reporting and the narrative pushed by politicians the media.

If we as a country are going to move forward (I am not so sure we do move forward as a country) we need to have actual fact based discussions that are not based on feeling and implied intent. There is a rush in the country to label any perceived injustice as race based and obviously this is not the case in reality but it does make nice headlines and gather votes.

 

[bdb13]

I don't recall anit-makers or anti-lockdown militants burning down cities over false covid policies, maybe I missed it. Can you show me?
I can show you ignorant and lazy people burning down cities and killing fellow citizens because of a false narrative created by an organization with ill intent, perpetuated by a incompetent media machine and a cowardly and corrupt political parties.

According to the WaPo database, these are the numbers of actual deaths of unarmed black men. Do these numbers justify rioting?

They are skewed a bit because a couple of those listed, were not armed with a weapon but still posed a threat to the officer.

Can we all agree that Antifa and Qanon are the same boogey man for each other's radicals? Both want violence, both founded in make believe and both are really just ideas/movements and neither have a website? Both are fringe, easily led crackpots.

Perhaps it's where I live, but I've never met anyone associated with antifa and I know several people who are big into Qanon, or have been big into it.. anecdotally it feels to me like there are a lot more Q people out there than antifa people, but I don't have anything statistically to show that.

 

[RobF]

Because people see reporting on specific incidents and wildly extrapolate from that. We don't have widespread media that presents calm, dispassionate, overviews, that are carefully considered by the public at large. And this affects perceptions of pretty much everything. Here's an example from a few years ago from this side of the pond, where we have the same issues:

British public wrong about nearly everything, survey shows

Research shows public opinion often deviates from facts on key social issues including crime, benefit fraud and immigration

www.independent.co.uk

I've also just found that Ipsos actually do a continuing global study on this (the gap between people's perceptions and reality): https://perils.ipsos.com/

That finds that, for example, someone in the USA guesses, on average, that 8.5% of deaths are caused by interpersonal violence, when in reality, it's 0.7%.

 

[Farb]

Because people see reporting on specific incidents and wildly extrapolate from that. We don't have widespread media that presents calm, dispassionate, overviews, that are carefully considered by the public at large. And this affects perceptions of pretty much everything. Here's an example from a few years ago from this side of the pond, where we have the same issues:

British public wrong about nearly everything, survey shows

Research shows public opinion often deviates from facts on key social issues including crime, benefit fraud and immigration

www.independent.co.uk

This is where your post basically falls down, because the protests are justified by the continual systemic discrimination people are facing, of which these particular injustices are part. They're not justified "because there's hundreds of black people being killed by the police, but everything would be fine if it was ten." That's not a thing.

Can you show me facts that back up the claims of systemic racism?

 

[MT15]

I agree with most of this, and I find the same questions when poll shows something you guys like.
The only thing I will push back on is you are saying the number of unarmed black men killed by cops is 100? Where do you get this number?

From the website you linked. The authors concede the number is higher than 27, and may be between 60-100. That’s their guess. The fact is we don’t really know the number, but I think JDonk referenced another study that puts the figure close to 100 annually. And as already mentioned, this doesn’t entirely paint a true picture of police violence against black people. It’s not “death or nothing”, there’s a lot of violence that doesn’t result in death.

 

[Saintamaniac]

Can you show me facts that back up the claims of systemic racism?

It's not a question of can you be shown facts to back up claims of systemic racism. It's a question of will you accept them. Explain the fact that black people convicted of the same crime as white people receive much longer sentences for the same crime. Explain what causes that.

Demographic Differences in Sentencing | United States Sentencing Commission (ussc.gov)

 

[bdb13]

It's not a question of can you be shown facts to back up claims of systemic racism. It's a question of will you accept them. Explain the fact that black people convicted of the same crime as white people receive much longer sentences for the same crime. Explain what causes that.

Demographic Differences in Sentencing | United States Sentencing Commission (ussc.gov)

I'm just shooting from the hip here so I don't have a study, but you can also look to pretrial detention and disparities in bonds.

 

[bdb13]

The poll is weird to me as far as the denominations available to answer with... The gap between 1 and 100, 100 and 1,000, and 1,000 and 10,000.. are large and there's no option to cut the difference and say "I think 500 people.." that part of it just seems like a odd way to conduct it to me.

Thinking about this more now.. fairly obvious to me that the poll was constructed in a way so that liberals would be likely to greatly overestimate the numbers while conservatives would likely underestimate them.. and because of the way the denominations are set up, the conservative underestimation couldn't possibly be as off as the liberal overestimation.

Edit: i.e. if 100 is the correct answer (and it is the most correct answer, per reading through the study) the wrong answer on the low end would only be off by a matter of 90 people, and that's it.. however if you're off on the high end, the best you can do is be wrong by a matter of 900 people, and you could actually be off by 9,900 people or more.

Bs poll imo (after last election they're all pretty much bs polls imo, but I digress) designed to get the result it got.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I agree 100% with this. I mean absolutely 100%.
But it also should be be asked, where would the lazy public get their information/misinformation/disinformation?
The answer is the media and the stump speeches from our politicians.

The media draws up a narrative that black men and being 'hunted down in the streets' by cops. The politicians echo this false narrative and the other side is too scared to ask for proof because then the media and the woke mob will label them as 'racist' so they remain silent so they can hopefully hold on to the power they have.
In my opinion, this is why the lazy and ignorant public, regardless of their political leanings, believe something so false.

I am well aware of what BLM is concerned with as are most of the poster here because we are not all that lazy and ignorant. If you all want to have a discussion just focusing on BLM and their beliefs and end goals I would enjoy that too and I would be glad to start the thread on BLM

So, I find this sort of thing fascinating - while I don't watch the news (I think 24/7 news networks are terrible), I do read print media, and I did not come to the conclusion that black men are being 'hunted down in the streets' by cops, so I find it curious that you get the impression that the media is saying this. Could you provide some articles that lead to this sort of imagery?

You could say similar things about the perceptions on undocumented immigrants, and the perception that they raise violent and property crimes. So, there's obviously a disconnect between statistics and perceptions of those statistics.

Basically, I get the impression that conservatives think that talking about racism makes everything worse, and it would all be better if we just ignored it. Or barring that, we should ask people experiencing racism to express themselves perfectly, with no exaggerations or anything else before they would even consider discussing it.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Can you show me facts that back up the claims of systemic racism?

I have posted so much stuff on this, I'm not going to regurgitate it all. There is a pisspile of information on racism in the criminal justice system; just google. See my post here: #231

Look at the numbers in your link for 2017. 46.3% of the police shootings were of whites. 22.6% were of blacks. But whites were 60.6% of the population, blacks just 12.3% of the population. So whites were shot at a rate of .76 per 1% of population, whereas blacks were shot at 1.84 per 1% of population. Hence, blacks were 2.4 times more likely to be shot than whites.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I agree 100% with this. I mean absolutely 100%.
But it also should be be asked, where would the lazy public get their information/misinformation/disinformation?
The answer is the media and the stump speeches from our politicians.

The media draws up a narrative that black men and being 'hunted down in the streets' by cops. The politicians echo this false narrative and the other side is too scared to ask for proof because then the media and the woke mob will label them as 'racist' so they remain silent so they can hopefully hold on to the power they have.
In my opinion, this is why the lazy and ignorant public, regardless of their political leanings, believe something so false.

I am well aware of what BLM is concerned with as are most of the poster here because we are not all that lazy and ignorant. If you all want to have a discussion just focusing on BLM and their beliefs and end goals I would enjoy that too and I would be glad to start the thread on BLM

I also agree with that sentiment regarding an ignorant and lazy public.

But Farb, you must understand something about the narrative you describe regarding black men being, "hunted down in the streets." In many places, at many times, even casual interaction with the police (such as being pulled over for speeding) is a fundamentally different experience for African Americans - particularly male - than it is for whites. As a white man, I have never felt afraid of the police. That is an example of my white priviledge. All my black friends have and do feel trepidation, and none of them are criminals. Things can just get out of control so much easier when you're black. Remember the incident last year in Central Park with the "Karen" threatening a black man that she would call the police and lie to them about his actions? Can you picture a scenario where if the roles were reversed it would have the same import?

 

[Lapaz]

There seems to be a lot of questions of what I think, who I support, why I am I so dense as to just not accept what you guys are constantly spouting, why would I not go dig up some article someone read 2 years ago, why don't I go and verify the data in the survey. I see very few, with the exception of @MT15 actually address the survey (thanks MT15)

The question and the only question I asked is why would huge sections of our population be so completely wrong on the actual number, or even ballpark number, of how many unarmed black men were killed by Police. This number is the reason we were told they needed to burn down the local taco shop because of this one particular injustice. Only thing is the number doesn't justify the action.

Frankly I think the left has been convinced and lash out in anger over their perception of police mistreatment. I think there is some truth to the left's perceptions, but the reasons behind the stats are complicated, and not nearly as nefarious as sold. Only the fringe on the left defended the riotous actions. On the other hand, the right has been convinced that they were mistreated by pollsters and the media, and they lashed out in anger. There is no truth to the right's perception, and the reasons behind their arguments are nefarious. A significant portion of the right gives comfort to the rioters.

 

[V Chip]

I don't recall anit-makers or anti-lockdown militants burning down cities

It’s funny you rail about misinformation being spread by the media and politicians, yet here you talk about cities (multiple) being burned down.

[Insert something about an eye and a splinter and a plank here]

 

[CoolBrees]

Holy shirt on a stick is that thing is a mess

First, according to that bar graph, if you guess 101, you are in the 100-1000 group. Same as if you said 500 or 999. 1000-10000 is an absurd range for anything that is not astral.

Second, per the study, they selected 980 from a dataset. A dataset that they reference at the bottom of the touch (second) graph. That is a clickable link. According to the original linked study, the original dataset was 1500 people. In other words, they hand selected the participants and therefore the dataset.

Thirdly, and quite simply couldn’t find out who the participants were or how they were contacted. What list was used to contact or verify affiliations or anything regarding the people behind this information either isn’t provided or doesn’t exist.

Lastly, of the items I bring up - because there is a lot more- is this little nugget of wisdom from the original study:

“We also over-sampled ethnic minorities to ensure that their attitudes, experiences, and perceptions can be assessed adequately.”

So do I need to go through why this is problematic? Because I will if you want me to but I don’t think it is necessary.

In summation, this is an unnamed, parameterless, obscenely biased, hand picked and totally unfounded mash up of tangential at best data points.

Other than that it is fine.

 

[First Time Poster]

Can you show me facts that back up the claims of systemic racism?

Honestly, the thread should end right here. Good faith discussion requires a baseline and that, quoted, shouldn't be dignified. Facts and proof aren't being sought here.

 

[Farb]

I looked at the link @Saintamaniac provided. I have seen that before. There could be several factors in why a black males would receive harsher sentencing than a white for the same crime and with the same criminal background. The main reason would more than not be racism. The other reason might be economic background (the use of a private lawyer as opposed to a court appointed one often brings better results at trial/hearing).
So, while I will grant you that racism is alive and well in this country (all races) I still have yet to see the proof that the system itself is racist. In fact, in looking over some details of this, I see where Florida, for example, has passed legislation to almost take sentencing out of the human hand and create a point type system. Did it work, not all the time because obviously some judges/DAs are racist. In order to prove 'systemic racisms' you have to show the system in racist, not the people in the system. I have yet to see proof of this, in fact, I see a system actively trying to correct and weed out racists.

 

[Farb]

Honestly, the thread should end right here. Good faith discussion requires a baseline and that, quoted, shouldn't be dignified. Facts and proof aren't being sought here.

Again with the implied intent.

Facts and proof are exactly what I am asking for. What I am not asking for is emotional responses. That would be a response 'racism'. I am specifically talking about the constant claims of 'systemic racism'.

The great thing about this board, if you so chose, this thread will end right here with you. Just don't click and participate. Free country and all that....

 

[Farb]

It’s funny you rail about misinformation being spread by the media and politicians, yet here you talk about cities (multiple) being burned down.

[Insert something about an eye and a splinter and a plank here]

Not following, unless you are claiming the whole capital thing was anti-maskers and ani-lockdowners. Is that what you are implying?

 

[SystemShock]

Not following,

I believe @V Chip wants you to list the cities that burned down.