New Poll on Police Shooting of Black Men (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

https://www.skeptic.com/research-center/reports/Research-Report-CUPES-007.pdf

(the answer is at the maximum 27)

I heard about this new poll from a podcast I listen to on the regular. To me, this is disturbing to say the least. We allowed idiots to burn down private businesses and cities because of the horrible reporting and the narrative pushed by politicians the media.

If we as a country are going to move forward (I am not so sure we do move forward as a country) we need to have actual fact based discussions that are not based on feeling and implied intent. There is a rush in the country to label any perceived injustice as race based and obviously this is not the case in reality but it does make nice headlines and gather votes.

 

[samiam5211]

Why can't they just change the voter registration cards to include a photo, then give it to everyone for free when they register to vote.

 

[DaveXA]

Why can't they just change the voter registration cards to include a photo, then give it to everyone for free when they register to vote.

Oh I dunno, that makes too much sense, so I don't see it happening.

That said, how to you verify/validate mail in ballots? Obviously, voters don't send their cards in with a ballot. I suppose they can validate the signature. If a voter shows up in person to vote who already mailed in a ballot, then void the mailed in one and count the in person one.

 

[V Chip]

I don't hate it. Not at all. I think that would be something. The only change I propose is that the citizen has 1 vote without an ID (that vote being the the one that the process to send them a ID in the mail) and that vote only, obviously, applies to in-person voting. After they receive their ID they can then apply for a validated mail-in if desired.

I suggested 2 or 3 because sometimes runoff elections are fairly close to the general, and if the ID hasn’t been sent in time it isn’t fair to deny someone that opportunity; plus, things do get lost in the mail or misplaced or forgotten so a grace period of a couple elections is fair IMO.

 

[Taurus]

Oh I dunno, that makes too much sense, so I don't see it happening.

That said, how to you verify/validate mail in ballots? Obviously, voters don't send their cards in with a ballot. I suppose they can validate the signature. If a voter shows up in person to vote who already mailed in a ballot, then void the mailed in one and count the in person one.

This is how it's already done.

That's the thing. Voter fraud is essentially unheard-of. US elections are incredibly secure from a verification standpoint.
Without a paper trail yes, it would be possible to hack voting machines and change enough votes to make a difference.
To do it with mail-in or in-person ballots, you'd have to change a bunch of them to move the needle. You might be able to intercept a few, change how they're filled out, then put them back into the stream, but you'd be hard pressed to do it to enough of them, quickly enough, without being caught. Plus, you'd have to open and reseal them, leave the ones that're already filled out like you want, etc. etc. You'd also have to have someone on the inside to let you do it. Stealing ballots while they're in-transit ain't easy.

No, voter fraud is a boogeyman propped up by Republicans to cover for their massive, ongoing, anti-American voter suppression campaign.

 

[V Chip]

No, voter fraud is a boogeyman propped up by Republicans to cover for their massive, ongoing, anti-American voter suppression campaign.

The fact that multiple investigations into in-person voter fraud have turned up statistically nothing and that these investigations were ALL led by Republicans should tell you exactly how much of a strawman "in-person voter fraud" is.

 

[Farb]

That is the one issue I have a problem with. If the person that can't get to the county court house for a voter ID can get to the polling station (kind of backwards to me) then they will need to register to vote and obtain a temporary voter ID to vote. Otherwise, you can have voter fraud.

 

[Nebaghead]

That is the one issue I have a problem with. If the person that can't get to the county court house for a voter ID can get to the polling station (kind of backwards to me) then they will need to register to vote and obtain a temporary voter ID to vote. Otherwise, you can have voter fraud.

Places like Alabama close driver license locations in black neighborhoods while at the same time requiring ids for voting.
It took the federal government to over rule. Imagine if this would have happened while Trump was president. You think his DOJ would have intervened?

Alabama Closing Many DMV Offices in Majority Black Counties

After Alabama put into effect a tougher voter ID law, the state shuttered 31 driver's license offices due to a budget crisis. The closures will cut off access to one of the few types of IDs accepted.

www.google.com

 

[Roofgardener]

Places like Alabama close driver license locations in black neighborhoods while at the same time requiring ids for voting.
It took the federal government to over rule. Imagine if this would have happened while Trump was president. You think his DOJ would have intervened?

Alabama Closing Many DMV Offices in Majority Black Counties

After Alabama put into effect a tougher voter ID law, the state shuttered 31 driver's license offices due to a budget crisis. The closures will cut off access to one of the few types of IDs accepted.

www.google.com

Umm... 'federal government to over rule' ?
As I understand it, the Representative for Birmingham ASKED the DoJ to look into it, but also met directly with the Governor of the state, at which point the Governor partially reopened some of the offices, at least part time. I'm not sure that counts as 'federal intervention' ? (and certainly the DoJ wasn't directly involved in the decision).

The problem is that Alabama is short of money. Well.. sort of. It needs to make economies SOMEHOW.

Alabama Will Reopen Closed DMV Offices in Black Counties

Gov. Robert Bentley reversed his position and announced last week that the Alabama Law Enforcement Agency would return driver's license examiners to 31 rural counties, at least on a limited basis.

www.governing.com

Note that all of this happened in October of 2015 (or at least, that was the date of the news article ? )

 

[Farb]

Has anyone ever interviewed or talked with a real person that cannot get a state or federal ID?
Genuine question?

 

[insidejob]

Has anyone ever interviewed or talked with a real person that cannot get a state or federal ID?
Genuine question?

I have. Well, I've talked to someone who would not have been able to get one if she weren't employed by my entire family. I remember taking the ride to the DMV with her and my grandmother when I was a kid so she could get one. Granted, the public transportation between Orleans and Jefferson was severely lacking like 28 years ago, but even today, I think it would have likely taken an entire day for her to get one if she rode the bus to get one. The kicker being that she was too old 28 years ago to get around on her own on the bus so she still wouldn't be able to do it on her own today if she were living. There are a lot of really old, really poor people all over this country who would rather not deal with the hassle of getting the ID just to vote (and spend the $30) when they feel like their vote isn't going to matter in federal elections in red states like Louisiana anyway. And shirt, I remember her telling the story of getting her first ID in the tiny little country town she grew up in when she was young and it took her two days to get it done. (It was like 1950.)

 

[wardorican]

So, I've been drinking, and I got into an argument with someone on Facebook, and... long story short, I think they think I'm a white racist.. which is really funny to me. And they think that, because I did that thing where I asked a question to maybe temper a reaction. Was this what really happened? Eek. Bad move. But, after having some fun, I think we worked it out.

Anyway, I'm not going to hash that out, I'm going to try to spit out what's in my head on this subject, and others, that somehow the Biden Tracker thread got in my head. It's a rough draft, so forgive me liberals.

I really do wonder how much perception vs reality plays into how the general public reacts to things. This might be related to old school gossip and rumors too.

So, first off, like I originally said, it's not just about how many black men are murdered by cops. it's about all negative police interactions. it's about being bothered by cops for just standing outside, and then having your name run through the system. It's about rough arrests. it's about not letting the small stuff go, like might happen with a white kid. It's about longer sentences for black men then for white men. All of that. So, again, while I'm going to get into a whole thing about truth and perception, let's not let this one survey about shootings tell the whole story. But it does tell A story.

I'm not citing papers or any research. This is just my random thoughts as they come to me. Again, rough draft.

I've found, over the years, many people assign very different meanings and levels of reactions to similar events. The phrase, don't make a mountain out of molehill applies to a point here. My wife and step-son lose their damn minds about a lot of things. They freak out and spiral. I usually don't. Or, I get really upset about certain things. But, generally, if I'm in a panic, it's baaaaaaad.

So, I get stuck on this idea. We want to highlight racial issues, because we want to stamp them out. Racism is inherently bad. More on that later. However, do we do our minority children harm by over stating it? If we point out racism everywhere, does that create an environment where we then see racism in things that really aren't, and create more nervous/anxious kids. I think having "the talk" with a black or Hispanic kid about the police is prudent, but it may also make a kid a lot more worried than they normally would be. When the news highlights all of these things, do we amp ourselves up and make it seem like there is a bigger problem than there is?

This tends to bring me to the political right's own version of "identity politics" which is essentially grievance politics. Like, do any of you really give a crap about those few Dr. Seuss books? Probably not. You probably never read those 6. Let's be honest. Sure, you may not like the idea of censorship, unless it's a rap song. But all of this manufactured rage over trivial things has turned so many in the political right into a paranoid, frothing mess. I mean, one of my friends, who is a cop, and a right winger suffers from anxiety. He's got enough from his job. We were hanging out recently, mostly outside (he and my wife are vaccinated, but we trust where we've all been too). As we were getting ready to go, to 'relax' he's watching some right wing video clip questioning if Biden is mentally fit, or whatever. So, he's actively watching something that, in a way, will get him nervous or upset. But, overall, I just feel this rage machine that Fox News, Rush (before he passed), Newsmax, OAN, and others all push, is just making the Political Right somewhat neurotic. I think it explains the rage at all kinds of trivial things. Dont' get me wrong, I'd have rather they kept Carano on the Mandalorian, but I also would have rather she just behaved after her bosses basically told her to lay low. But, in the end, I really don't care. Look at the org chart, don't piss off the person on top.

So, grievance politics, identity politics.. They are the same.



"we are the same"

We are all (well, mostly all) creatures where we stand and what we see. You can call it our news ecosystems, or the people we surround ourselves with, they shape our perspective, and in the case of sensationalist news, they warp our realities to believe everything is worth than we thought. Rarely to people ask the smart questions to temper this down a bit. nope, gotta race straight ahead to the crazy my news told me it was.

So, earlier I said Racism is inherently bad. This is true. If something is racist, it is bad. Racism, in an academic sense, is binary. is or isn't. But, the rating component is missing. How bad. Racism is always bad, but is it bad enough to act on? And I don't mean you always let it go, but when considering a person's overall mental health, you have to let some smaller things go. You can't sweat the small stuff. We can't get upset about everything that is upsetting. How much of your energy are you going to put into this particular issue today? If you put all of your energy into everything, you'll burn out.

Same with the political right's grievance politics. Seriously, you can't be upset about every damn thing. Pick the things that matter.

And there is the rub. So much of this doesn't matter. The manufactured outrage is just a drug being pumped into so many of us to lose sight of real political, social, and economic change. If we ignore all of these manufactured battle grounds, we'd see how many of us agree on certain key things. I bet, most people here, despite political leanings think they're underpaid or that their employers could pay them more (maybe outside this pandemic). I'd think most people are anti war, but pro self-defense and protection of global shipping/transport.

Anyway, the only other barely fleshed out thought I have is about how much I'm getting dismayed by the current push for calls to end systemic racism really turning into a version of grievance politics and vengeful actions. I'm seeing too many people finally getting a seat at the table or pushing for one, then turn around and burn all the other seats.

Did I mention I was drinking?

 

[DaveXA]

So, I've been drinking, and I got into an argument with someone on Facebook, and... long story short, I think they think I'm a white racist.. which is really funny to me. And they think that, because I did that thing where I asked a question to maybe temper a reaction. Was this what really happened? Eek. Bad move. But, after having some fun, I think we worked it out.

Anyway, I'm not going to hash that out, I'm going to try to spit out what's in my head on this subject, and others, that somehow the Biden Tracker thread got in my head. It's a rough draft, so forgive me liberals.

I really do wonder how much perception vs reality plays into how the general public reacts to things. This might be related to old school gossip and rumors too.

So, first off, like I originally said, it's not just about how many black men are murdered by cops. it's about all negative police interactions. it's about being bothered by cops for just standing outside, and then having your name run through the system. It's about rough arrests. it's about not letting the small stuff go, like might happen with a white kid. It's about longer sentences for black men then for white men. All of that. So, again, while I'm going to get into a whole thing about truth and perception, let's not let this one survey about shootings tell the whole story. But it does tell A story.

I'm not citing papers or any research. This is just my random thoughts as they come to me. Again, rough draft.

I've found, over the years, many people assign very different meanings and levels of reactions to similar events. The phrase, don't make a mountain out of molehill applies to a point here. My wife and step-son lose their damn minds about a lot of things. They freak out and spiral. I usually don't. Or, I get really upset about certain things. But, generally, if I'm in a panic, it's baaaaaaad.

So, I get stuck on this idea. We want to highlight racial issues, because we want to stamp them out. Racism is inherently bad. More on that later. However, do we do our minority children harm by over stating it? If we point out racism everywhere, does that create an environment where we then see racism in things that really aren't, and create more nervous/anxious kids. I think having "the talk" with a black or Hispanic kid about the police is prudent, but it may also make a kid a lot more worried than they normally would be. When the news highlights all of these things, do we amp ourselves up and make it seem like there is a bigger problem than there is?

This tends to bring me to the political right's own version of "identity politics" which is essentially grievance politics. Like, do any of you really give a crap about those few Dr. Seuss books? Probably not. You probably never read those 6. Let's be honest. Sure, you may not like the idea of censorship, unless it's a rap song. But all of this manufactured rage over trivial things has turned so many in the political right into a paranoid, frothing mess. I mean, one of my friends, who is a cop, and a right winger suffers from anxiety. He's got enough from his job. We were hanging out recently, mostly outside (he and my wife are vaccinated, but we trust where we've all been too). As we were getting ready to go, to 'relax' he's watching some right wing video clip questioning if Biden is mentally fit, or whatever. So, he's actively watching something that, in a way, will get him nervous or upset. But, overall, I just feel this rage machine that Fox News, Rush (before he passed), Newsmax, OAN, and others all push, is just making the Political Right somewhat neurotic. I think it explains the rage at all kinds of trivial things. Dont' get me wrong, I'd have rather they kept Carano on the Mandalorian, but I also would have rather she just behaved after her bosses basically told her to lay low. But, in the end, I really don't care. Look at the org chart, don't piss off the person on top.

So, grievance politics, identity politics.. They are the same.



"we are the same"

We are all (well, mostly all) creatures where we stand and what we see. You can call it our news ecosystems, or the people we surround ourselves with, they shape our perspective, and in the case of sensationalist news, they warp our realities to believe everything is worth than we thought. Rarely to people ask the smart questions to temper this down a bit. nope, gotta race straight ahead to the crazy my news told me it was.

So, earlier I said Racism is inherently bad. This is true. If something is racist, it is bad. Racism, in an academic sense, is binary. is or isn't. But, the rating component is missing. How bad. Racism is always bad, but is it bad enough to act on? And I don't mean you always let it go, but when considering a person's overall mental health, you have to let some smaller things go. You can't sweat the small stuff. We can't get upset about everything that is upsetting. How much of your energy are you going to put into this particular issue today? If you put all of your energy into everything, you'll burn out.

Same with the political right's grievance politics. Seriously, you can't be upset about every damn thing. Pick the things that matter.

And there is the rub. So much of this doesn't matter. The manufactured outrage is just a drug being pumped into so many of us to lose sight of real political, social, and economic change. If we ignore all of these manufactured battle grounds, we'd see how many of us agree on certain key things. I bet, most people here, despite political leanings think they're underpaid or that their employers could pay them more (maybe outside this pandemic). I'd think most people are anti war, but pro self-defense and protection of global shipping/transport.

Anyway, the only other barely fleshed out thought I have is about how much I'm getting dismayed by the current push for calls to end systemic racism really turning into a version of grievance politics and vengeful actions. I'm seeing too many people finally getting a seat at the table or pushing for one, then turn around and burn all the other seats.

Did I mention I was drinking?

I just got done reading all this. It's 2 am. I need a drink...but...I need to sleep more. Lol.

I'll just say, good food for thought. Deciding what is important enough to respond to. I will say though. Some small things do matter, even if they're not exactly earth shattering. How do we pick and choose? I'm pretty sure a white guy like me will choose what I think are things that matters a lot differently than someone who is black, Asian or whatever. We all have our own values, perceptions and prejudices. But having. Conversation that maybe helps me flesh some of this out, and gain a bit more perspective can help me and others find a way to have have a healthy conversation about race, politics and such. Maybe this would be better fleshed out in its own thread.

Just a thought.

 

[wardorican]

I just got done reading all this. It's 2 am. I need a drink...but...I need to sleep more. Lol.

I'll just say, good food for thought. Deciding what is important enough to respond to. I will say though. Some small things do matter, even if they're not exactly earth shattering. How do we pick and choose? I'm pretty sure a white guy like me will choose what I think are things that matters a lot differently than someone who is black, Asian or whatever. We all have our own values, perceptions and prejudices. But having. Conversation that maybe helps me flesh some of this out, and gain a bit more perspective can help me and others find a way to have have a healthy conversation about race, politics and such. Maybe this would be better fleshed out in its own thread.

Just a thought.

There isn’t a right answer. But it sure does seem we overly focus on the binary aspect of it more than the rating. But the rating will be different for different people.

 

[DaveXA]

There isn’t a right answer. But it sure does seem we overly focus on the binary aspect of it more than the rating. But the rating will be different for different people.

I think actually rating things like you suggest is going to require a bit of courage and honesty about our own tendencies. I think it will be interesting to see how similar or different our ratings are.

 

[Nebaghead]

Umm... 'federal government to over rule' ?
As I understand it, the Representative for Birmingham ASKED the DoJ to look into it, but also met directly with the Governor of the state, at which point the Governor partially reopened some of the offices, at least part time. I'm not sure that counts as 'federal intervention' ? (and certainly the DoJ wasn't directly involved in the decision).

The problem is that Alabama is short of money. Well.. sort of. It needs to make economies SOMEHOW.

Alabama Will Reopen Closed DMV Offices in Black Counties

Gov. Robert Bentley reversed his position and announced last week that the Alabama Law Enforcement Agency would return driver's license examiners to 31 rural counties, at least on a limited basis.

www.governing.com

Note that all of this happened in October of 2015 (or at least, that was the date of the news article ? )

The whole point is it was directed to poor rural black areas. These kind of changes under the guise of fiscal or security are targeted towards black voters. Look at the no voting bill in Georgia on Sundays. Black churches do the soul to the Polls events and this change affects them.
Have you even been to the south in the US? It is an eye opening experience to see how black communities are segregated out from white communities. The US school system relies on property taxes for funding so these communities receive horrible funding and it creates a continuous cycle for poor people to not get a chance.

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

So, I've been drinking, and I got into an argument with someone on Facebook, and... long story short, I think they think I'm a white racist.. which is really funny to me. And they think that, because I did that thing where I asked a question to maybe temper a reaction. Was this what really happened? Eek. Bad move. But, after having some fun, I think we worked it out.

Anyway, I'm not going to hash that out, I'm going to try to spit out what's in my head on this subject, and others, that somehow the Biden Tracker thread got in my head. It's a rough draft, so forgive me liberals.

I really do wonder how much perception vs reality plays into how the general public reacts to things. This might be related to old school gossip and rumors too.

So, first off, like I originally said, it's not just about how many black men are murdered by cops. it's about all negative police interactions. it's about being bothered by cops for just standing outside, and then having your name run through the system. It's about rough arrests. it's about not letting the small stuff go, like might happen with a white kid. It's about longer sentences for black men then for white men. All of that. So, again, while I'm going to get into a whole thing about truth and perception, let's not let this one survey about shootings tell the whole story. But it does tell A story.

I'm not citing papers or any research. This is just my random thoughts as they come to me. Again, rough draft.

I've found, over the years, many people assign very different meanings and levels of reactions to similar events. The phrase, don't make a mountain out of molehill applies to a point here. My wife and step-son lose their damn minds about a lot of things. They freak out and spiral. I usually don't. Or, I get really upset about certain things. But, generally, if I'm in a panic, it's baaaaaaad.

So, I get stuck on this idea. We want to highlight racial issues, because we want to stamp them out. Racism is inherently bad. More on that later. However, do we do our minority children harm by over stating it? If we point out racism everywhere, does that create an environment where we then see racism in things that really aren't, and create more nervous/anxious kids. I think having "the talk" with a black or Hispanic kid about the police is prudent, but it may also make a kid a lot more worried than they normally would be. When the news highlights all of these things, do we amp ourselves up and make it seem like there is a bigger problem than there is?

This tends to bring me to the political right's own version of "identity politics" which is essentially grievance politics. Like, do any of you really give a crap about those few Dr. Seuss books? Probably not. You probably never read those 6. Let's be honest. Sure, you may not like the idea of censorship, unless it's a rap song. But all of this manufactured rage over trivial things has turned so many in the political right into a paranoid, frothing mess. I mean, one of my friends, who is a cop, and a right winger suffers from anxiety. He's got enough from his job. We were hanging out recently, mostly outside (he and my wife are vaccinated, but we trust where we've all been too). As we were getting ready to go, to 'relax' he's watching some right wing video clip questioning if Biden is mentally fit, or whatever. So, he's actively watching something that, in a way, will get him nervous or upset. But, overall, I just feel this rage machine that Fox News, Rush (before he passed), Newsmax, OAN, and others all push, is just making the Political Right somewhat neurotic. I think it explains the rage at all kinds of trivial things. Dont' get me wrong, I'd have rather they kept Carano on the Mandalorian, but I also would have rather she just behaved after her bosses basically told her to lay low. But, in the end, I really don't care. Look at the org chart, don't piss off the person on top.

So, grievance politics, identity politics.. They are the same.



"we are the same"

We are all (well, mostly all) creatures where we stand and what we see. You can call it our news ecosystems, or the people we surround ourselves with, they shape our perspective, and in the case of sensationalist news, they warp our realities to believe everything is worth than we thought. Rarely to people ask the smart questions to temper this down a bit. nope, gotta race straight ahead to the crazy my news told me it was.

So, earlier I said Racism is inherently bad. This is true. If something is racist, it is bad. Racism, in an academic sense, is binary. is or isn't. But, the rating component is missing. How bad. Racism is always bad, but is it bad enough to act on? And I don't mean you always let it go, but when considering a person's overall mental health, you have to let some smaller things go. You can't sweat the small stuff. We can't get upset about everything that is upsetting. How much of your energy are you going to put into this particular issue today? If you put all of your energy into everything, you'll burn out.

Same with the political right's grievance politics. Seriously, you can't be upset about every damn thing. Pick the things that matter.

And there is the rub. So much of this doesn't matter. The manufactured outrage is just a drug being pumped into so many of us to lose sight of real political, social, and economic change. If we ignore all of these manufactured battle grounds, we'd see how many of us agree on certain key things. I bet, most people here, despite political leanings think they're underpaid or that their employers could pay them more (maybe outside this pandemic). I'd think most people are anti war, but pro self-defense and protection of global shipping/transport.

Anyway, the only other barely fleshed out thought I have is about how much I'm getting dismayed by the current push for calls to end systemic racism really turning into a version of grievance politics and vengeful actions. I'm seeing too many people finally getting a seat at the table or pushing for one, then turn around and burn all the other seats.

Did I mention I was drinking?

@DaveXA i like that Dave replied soon after this bc it's something that I've been wondering about the both of you (and a few other centrists)...

you note your wife's and stepson's 'elevated' emotional response to things -- and by implication, championing your own 'level-headed' take on things
(pardon the annoying pop psycho analysis that follows)
i get the sense from you and Dave that you consider your seeking moderation/seeking balance stance as perceived wisdom and maybe even enlightenment
AND IT MAY VERY WELL BE
it may also be the same/similar neuro-chemical (or emotionally trained) response to stimuli that libs in our default humans over institutions or the alt with their desperate clinging to mythology go through
[[i anticipate that in 20 years time we will find out that our participation in discussion boards bears striking resemblance to experimental rats clicking bars to get their food reward -- but i digress]]

your moderation is your default position - Dave in another thread on another board champions "Normal"
you are exactly right that we should ALL check our presumptions about (though i will add that i think you are exactly wrong about it being a binary - race is both as real and illusory as love - and you have jut as much chance of telling someone whether their experience is REALLY racial as you do telling someone to what degree they are in/out of love
- i can listen to my wife and think, ' is that really all that racist' but i know that i lack to tools both to assess and express that degree

yes i will continue to try to check myself - but i ask you and Dave to continue to check your presumptions that all answers are 'probably in the middle somewhere' - there's nothing that tells us that such a position is any more than a political convenience

love you both

 

[brandon]

@DaveXA i like that Dave replied soon after this bc it's something that I've been wondering about the both of you (and a few other centrists)...

you note your wife's and stepson's 'elevated' emotional response to things -- and by implication, championing your own 'level-headed' take on things
(pardon the annoying pop psycho analysis that follows)
i get the sense from you and Dave that you consider your seeking moderation/seeking balance stance as perceived wisdom and maybe even enlightenment
AND IT MAY VERY WELL BE
it may also be the same/similar neuro-chemical (or emotionally trained) response to stimuli that libs in our default humans over institutions or the alt with their desperate clinging to mythology go through
[[i anticipate that in 20 years time we will find out that our participation in discussion boards bears striking resemblance to experimental rats clicking bars to get their food reward -- but i digress]]

your moderation is your default position - Dave in another thread on another board champions "Normal"
you are exactly right that we should ALL check our presumptions about (though i will add that i think you are exactly wrong about it being a binary - race is both as real and illusory as love - and you have jut as much chance of telling someone whether their experience is REALLY racial as you do telling someone to what degree they are in/out of love
- i can listen to my wife and think, ' is that really all that racist' but i know that i lack to tools both to assess and express that degree

yes i will continue to try to check myself - but i ask you and Dave to continue to check your presumptions that all answers are 'probably in the middle somewhere' - there's nothing that tells us that such a position is any more than a political convenience

love you both

Can I have your babies? I'm free tonight.

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

Can I have your babies? I'm free tonight.

i'm using them tonight

unless you mean a different 'have'