Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

Women have had it good for too long? LGBTQ+ people have had it good for too long? Racial minorities have had it good for too long?

I don’t know much about you and I’d have to trust you to be honest about your situation to believe what you’re vulnerabilities would be if MAGA regains power, but I don’t dismiss the consequences that will befall a lot of people if Trump wins the election.

He's not thinking rationally at all. You're debating a brick wall at this point.

 

[Incumbent]

Everyone in the US has had it too good for too long, even the poorest most oppressed person.

I think a lot of those people would disagree. I certainly do.

Your concern for human life and suffering seems really shallow. Everybody should suffer if anybody suffers. There is no ending to that. What an abysmal outlook.

 

[Incumbent]

He's not thinking rationally at all. You're debating a brick wall at this point.

I just don’t understand the basis for his viewpoint. Maybe there isn’t one, or at least not a compelling one, but I’d genuinely like to understand it all better if that’s possible.

 

[coldseat]

Everyone in the US has had it too good for too long, even the poorest most oppressed person.

So you would have the US mired in the same war, conflict and poverty at home that is consuming Gaza and other waring parts of the world?

 

[samiam5211]

So you would have the US mired in the same war, conflict and poverty at home that is consuming Gaza and other waring parts of the world?

We as a people are weak and spoiled, and think we deserve more than anyone else in the world.

Everyone on the planet deserves the same standard of living.

 

[DaveXA]

We as a people are weak and spoiled, and think we deserve more than anyone else in the world.

In some ways we are, and in other ways, not so much. But since you don't care about nuance....

Everyone on the planet deserves the same standard of living.

Life ain't fair. No 2 countries have the same standard of living. Heck, same can be said at the local level. Drive across town and that stands true.

We certainly should strive for equality for all, but practically speaking, it's wishful thinking.

 

[Incumbent]

So you would have the US mired in the same war, conflict and poverty at home that is consuming Gaza and other waring parts of the world?

I think too many people have this belief that if Trump gets re-elected, it will be a blip with temporary consequences, and somehow turn out to be a pathway to a correction that gets us to a better version of America. I don’t see it.

I think there is a glaring false confidence in our systems and framework that they will protect us from lasting damage from authoritarianism. This overlooks that if an authoritarian surrounds himself with sycophants at the highest level, who share the same motives and outlook, anything becomes possible. History is a long lesson in what happens when power falls into the wrong hands.

What fundamentally separates us from a country like Russia is a collectively prevailing belief, held by the people with their hands on the controls, that our constitutional framework is sacred and our democracy is worth protecting. Erode that idealism and the illusion of our protected exceptionalism will fall away quickly.

Trump isn’t just a dark chapter in our history; this is a pivotal moment that will determine our future. When a candidate is threatening political opponents, journalism, his civilian opposition, and courting violence and fomenting discord, history is shouting at us to take that seriously.

If we’ve had it “too good” in any respect, it’s the false sense of security that America is a fortress, fortified against what threatens other governments. Our only defense is to vote and hope to secure the conditions that allow us to continue to work towards higher minded principles.

 

[Dragon]

Let me get this straight - You don't care about the Atrocities that Hamas did? You don't care about the millions of people in the US who are going to suffer if Trump is reelected?
And you don't care about the people of Gaza who if Trump is reelected and Jared returns as envoy to the middle east, will be deported to Negev desert so that Jared and his financiers (Saudi anyone?) can build a middle-eastern version of Monaco on the Gazan seashore? Those plans are already drawn up and several top Trump diplomats are arguing for this solution!

Trump back in the white house would also mean that the US would leave Nato. Europe is already taking steps to be able to defend themselves. They are not waiting for the election outcome. Europe will stand together but the US would stand alone.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Again, it's simple privilege, and a bet. Privilege that they think they won't be harmed too badly and lack of care for those who will be harmed. And a bet that this will somehow get them what they want later. A bet that the police action that cleared up the protestors will be one offs and not a further crackdown on protests. A bet that whoever is watching this looks at a narrow Biden loss and conclude that they should have gone more progressive instead of what often happens and think they need to go more conservative, since you know the more conservative person won. A bet that the rule of law will hold. And so on.

 

[coldseat]

Again, it's simple privilege, and a bet. Privilege that they think they won't be harmed too badly and lack of care for those who will be harmed. And a bet that this will somehow get them what they want later. A bet that the police action that cleared up the protestors will be one offs and not a further crackdown on protests. A bet that whoever is watching this looks at a narrow Biden loss and conclude that they should have gone more progressive instead of what often happens and think they need to go more conservative, since you know the more conservative person won. A bet that the rule of law will hold. And so on.

For @samiam5211 , I think it's actually more nihilism than anything else. Or at least it seems that way.

Not saying that's everybody, but a lot of people probably feel that way. I understand the feeling and have fought against it myself many times, but ultimately all that leads to is pure chaos and destruction. You have to care, even when a situation seems hopeless.

 

[Maxp]

One can always set himself on fire to toughen up and protest at the same time.

 

[Dragon]

They are a fools! My grandfather had a lot of friends who talked like they do now. In Hamburg in 1934... Guess what - they all regreted it later - some like my grandfather spend time in a KZ camp and not all survived!

 

[Incumbent]

Let me get this straight - You don't care about the Atrocities that Hamas did? You don't care about the millions of people in the US who are going to suffer if Trump is reelected?
And you don't care about the people of Gaza who if Trump is reelected and Jared returns as envoy to the middle east, will be deported to Negev desert so that Jared and his financiers (Saudi anyone?) can build a middle-eastern version of Monaco on the Gazan seashore? Those plans are already drawn up and several top Trump diplomats are arguing for this solution!

Trump back in the white house would also mean that the US would leave Nato. Europe is already taking steps to be able to defend themselves. They are not waiting for the election outcome. Europe will stand together but the US would stand alone.

Yep. It’s all being laid out in front of us.

At least in 2016, people were dealing with a greater degree of unknown, even though it was clear to many of us, that at the very least, Trump wasn’t the person to be reshaping the judicial branch. Clinton was the better candidate for progress and we’re paying a steep price for that outcome.

I strongly believe that there aren’t compelling excuses to not vote for Biden in this election for anybody who recognizes the threat that Trump/MAGA is, who wants to preserve democracy and protect vulnerable people. Not global crises. Not “my vote doesn’t count anyway”. Not apathy or philosophical disagreement. The numbers need to be convincing to construct as strong a firewall as possible against the inevitable claims of election tampering and legal challenges from Trump.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

For @samiam5211 , I think it's actually more nihilism than anything else. Or at least it seems that way.

Not saying that's everybody, but a lot of people probably feel that way. I understand the feeling and have fought against it myself many times, but ultimately all that leads to is pure chaos and destruction. You have to care, even when a situation seems hopeless.

For me, what I see are a lot of people throwing "oh no, but Trump" as rationale for ignoring what's happening in Gaza. They're separate and can be attacked separately. People just choose not to do so. It's all or nothing. Several posts here highlight that.

What I see are a lot who will not post a letter when I post stories of atrocities that the IDF has done in Gaza. Yet, one story about a group of antisemitic butt crevasses and things blow up. Case in point, sam posted the interview with the Jewish student protesting in the encampments at Columbia and how the bad actors aren't a part of that group. The only ones acknowledging it were the ones I expected. Even those who I know are liberal in thought... ***crickets***. Yet a few posts later...

Israel vs Hamas

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/07/middleeast/sirens-israel-rocket-attack-gaza-intl-hnk/index.html

madaboutpolitics.com

So what's playing out on TV is playing out here as well. Even after posters countered by stating how the majority of protests have been peaceful... ***crickets***. As the wise Simon Peter Gruber stated, you've fallen for it hook, line, and sinker.

I don't feel as extreme in thoughts as sam, but I definitely feel for how he's reached this point. I have no doubt that I'm voting for Biden in November. But I also have no problem calling Biden and a bunch of other folks hypocrites for trying to play the high ground all the while playing ignorant out of fear of the mighty Israel lobby or being labeled an antisemite.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

The numbers need to be convincing to construct as strong a firewall as possible against the inevitable claims of election tampering and legal challenges from Trump.

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. I surely hope that I am wrong.

 

[DaveXA]

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. I surely hope that I am wrong.

I see Biden winning, but the margin being closer than 2020 and Trump going all-in on another challenge and probably at least attempt a Jan 6 redeux. Yuck.

 

[DaveXA]

For me, what I see are a lot of people throwing "oh no, but Trump" as rationale for ignoring what's happening in Gaza. They're separate and can be attacked separately. People just choose not to do so. It's all or nothing. Several posts here highlight that.

What I see are a lot who will not post a letter when I post stories of atrocities that the IDF has done in Gaza. Yet, one story about a group of antisemitic butt crevasses and things blow up. Case in point, sam posted the interview with the Jewish student protesting in the encampments at Columbia and how the bad actors aren't a part of that group. The only ones acknowledging it were the ones I expected. Even those who I know are liberal in thought... ***crickets***. Yet a few posts later...

Israel vs Hamas

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/07/middleeast/sirens-israel-rocket-attack-gaza-intl-hnk/index.html

madaboutpolitics.com

So what's playing out on TV is playing out here as well. Even after posters countered by stating how the majority of protests have been peaceful... ***crickets***. As the wise Simon Peter Gruber stated, you've fallen for it hook, line, and sinker.

I don't feel as extreme in thoughts as sam, but I definitely feel for how he's reached this point. I have no doubt that I'm voting for Biden in November. But I also have no problem calling Biden and a bunch of other folks hypocrites for trying to play the high ground all the while playing ignorant out of fear of the mighty Israel lobby or being labeled an antisemite.

Right. Biden certainly could be a better leader on the Gaza mess. That said, it's an election year, for better or worse, and he's not going to rock the boat too much.

I will say that while it's easy for us to say they're two separate issues, for the President, it's all a factor for him as a candidate. I think most here understand and even acknowledge that Israel has gone too far, and they need to slow their roll. They also understand that a Trump presidency isn't a choice. Both are true.

What I'm hoping for is either a peace deal is in place before the electio, or, Biden goes hard after Bibi after he's reelected.

 

[Incumbent]

For me, what I see are a lot of people throwing "oh no, but Trump" as rationale for ignoring what's happening in Gaza. They're separate and can be attacked separately. People just choose not to do so. It's all or nothing. Several posts here highlight that.

What I see are a lot who will not post a letter when I post stories of atrocities that the IDF has done in Gaza. Yet, one story about a group of antisemitic butt crevasses and things blow up. Case in point, sam posted the interview with the Jewish student protesting in the encampments at Columbia and how the bad actors aren't a part of that group. The only ones acknowledging it were the ones I expected. Even those who I know are liberal in thought... ***crickets***. Yet a few posts later...

Israel vs Hamas

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/07/middleeast/sirens-israel-rocket-attack-gaza-intl-hnk/index.html

madaboutpolitics.com

So what's playing out on TV is playing out here as well. Even after posters countered by stating how the majority of protests have been peaceful... ***crickets***. As the wise Simon Peter Gruber stated, you've fallen for it hook, line, and sinker.

I don't feel as extreme in thoughts as sam, but I definitely feel for how he's reached this point. I have no doubt that I'm voting for Biden in November. But I also have no problem calling Biden and a bunch of other folks hypocrites for trying to play the high ground all the while playing ignorant out of fear of the mighty Israel lobby or being labeled an antisemite.

I think you raise some fair points but lack of separation of the topics goes back to the first few days after Israel declared war on Hamas and people began using it as a justification to not vote for Biden. There was a haste there that certainly looked…inorganic. I saw that happen here and on social media.

Even months later, I don’t think many of the people who are dug in, either way, are still seeing this clearly and completely.

Evidence strongly indicates the IDF is guilty of war crimes but I think people are being political in accusing Israel of genocide. It’s a close quarters, densely populated, largely urban combat arena. Casualties, tragically, are going to be high. Netanyahu is a piece of **** and I don’t question that there is malice in his motives, but I think a lot of people, on both sides, can be fairly accused of not seeing the bigger picture, nor being equitable about blame. Just as some people are dismissive of Israel’s actions, I see that a lot as it relates to Hamas.

I will add that as the years have passed, I’ve become increasingly distrustful of Abrahamic religions, and I look at all of this with increasing scorn and skepticism.