Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

Being dead beats starving to death.

While there are some that are starving, certainly that's awful and an injustice, that hardly means most are starving and that most are better off dead. But you do you.

 

[Heathen]

Being reactionary is often shortsighted as it is in this case.

If Trump wins the election, not only will it get a lot worse for all Palestinians anywhere near Israel, not just in Gaza, but ethnic cleansing will escalate all across the planet against a lot of different ethnic groups.

If one's goal is to protect as many people as possible, not just the Palestinians in Gaza, from being mass murdered just for their ethnicity then one better pray to their god or gods that Trump doesn't win the election, because there's going to be a global pandemic of mass murdering ethnic cleansing if Trump wins in November.

That’s a fair take and I don’t disagree, but what do we do about what is happening right now in Gaza?

I’m not sure what people are supposed to be expected do if there is always a theoretically worse option out there. Seems that the obvious danger here is that they’ll be pressured to keep on keeping uninterested and uninvolved, and of course that leads to less pressure to do anything at all.

And whatever one’s take is, the reaction to Gaza has had some effect on foreign policy, I strongly believe. It may not be massive, but it’s something. And if that something helps saves lives, I’m not sure why anyone wouldn’t be for it.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Being dead beats starving to death.

That's not your decision to make for someone else.

Around 25% of the people in Gaza are starving. That's terrible.

Around 75% are not starving and that 75% would not be better off dead. Even the 25% who are starving would be better off fed, not dead.

The authoritarianism in you runs disturbingly deep. You've said we'd be better off if we couldn't vote. You sit and make callous proclamations that hundreds of thousands of people would be better off dead.

If the Palestinians would be better off dead, then shouldn't we just let the Israeli government and military kill them all, since they'd be better off dead?

That’s a fair take and I don’t disagree, but what do we do about what is happening right now in Gaza?

I honestly don't know, because there's a lot going on behind closed doors that we don't know about. There's no easy or simple answers. Russia, Iran China and North Korea are all involved in this mess. This is a very dangerous and difficult situation.

Here at home, I think speaking out and protesting about the treatment of the people in Gaza is good. I think calling for the slaughter of more Israelis is bad.

The one thing we don't do is what we know will make things worse and Trump winning the election will make things worse there and all over the world. Vocalizing anger and disappointment with US policy and statements is good. Refusing to vote for Biden out of anger will only make things much worse for the people in Gaza and a lot more people in other countries.

I’m not sure what people are supposed to be expected do if there is always a theoretically worse option out there. Seems that the obvious danger here is that they’ll be pressured to keep on keeping uninterested and uninvolved, and of course that leads to less pressure to do anything at all.

One can express anger publicly about Biden in public and vote for him in private. They aren't exclusive and it's not hypocritical. There are few issues I adamantly disagree with Biden on. On balance, Biden's the best choice for president by far, so I'm going to vote for him and keep publicly speaking out about the things I don't like about him.

And whatever one’s take is, the reaction to Gaza has had some effect on foreign policy, I strongly believe. It may not be massive, but it’s something. And if that something helps saves lives, I’m not sure why anyone wouldn’t be for it.

There's a better chance of pressuring Biden into changing foreign policy regarding Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

There is zero chance of pressuring Trump into changing foreign policy regarding Israel's treatment of Palestinians. Even JFK Jr. has shown signs he will support radical actions by the Israeli government and military.

 

[Dragon]

Only half of Americans support the Palestinians, because our leaders are not standing up for the principles we are supposed to believe in.

People are followers. They will go where they are led.

The problem is that Hamas started this. However much we agree on the fact that Israel has overreacted and abused the situation to achieve other goals - that fact still remains.

And for many that fact and the way that attack was carried out, will justify almost anything.

Remember many have not followed the silent war and abuse committed by both sides for many years. Many do not even know that those who fled 30 years ago are not even allowed back today.

 

[UriUT]

That’s a fair take and I don’t disagree, but what do we do about what is happening right now in Gaza?

I’m not sure what people are supposed to be expected do if there is always a theoretically worse option out there. Seems that the obvious danger here is that they’ll be pressured to keep on keeping uninterested and uninvolved, and of course that leads to less pressure to do anything at all.

And whatever one’s take is, the reaction to Gaza has had some effect on foreign policy, I strongly believe. It may not be massive, but it’s something. And if that something helps saves lives, I’m not sure why anyone wouldn’t be for it.

This conflict already moved the needle against Israel. This is the largest reputation all time hit they've ever had in the American consciousness. Americans didn't bat an eye when Trump allowed Netanyahu to steal land in the west Bank. Moved Isreal's capital, and take Palestinians half of Jerusalem. We didn't care that gazans were caged and slowly killed off through raids, which BTW is netanyahu's grand plan. He pumped up hamas by allowing money to cross their borders and intentionally weakened the more moderate pa. We simply didn't care.

But the more Americans are aware of Israel's atrocity, and when that nibbles at their conscious, aipac and the adl will have less sway towards our leaders. The problem is is that Americans instinctually lump in anti zionism with antisemitism. It's a tragedy that only half of Americans favor helping the palestinians when the atrocity is in plain sight. And this is what I mean about a long arduous process of changing hearts and minds. It's difficult to have someone change their behavior and thinking over night. Sometimes it's a generational event when the old guard dies off. And worse still, this happened when we are facing a greater threat at home. Sometimes you have to sort your home in order before we can venture out and help others. If Biden won't change after, I'll be right there with you. But my guess is the breaking point and the banging of heads will be coming sooner rather than later.

Eventually, maybe Americans won't hold israel in such a sacred place as isreal move further and further towards facism.

Oh an update, Lee won her primary despite pressure against her vote against Israeli aid and her being labeled antisemite. It wasn't even close.

 

[samiam5211]

The problem is that Hamas started this. However much we agree on the fact that Israel has overreacted and abused the situation to achieve other goals - that fact still remains.

And for many that fact and the way that attack was carried out, will justify almost anything.

Remember many have not followed the silent war and abuse committed by both sides for many years. Many do not even know that those who fled 30 years ago are not even allowed back today.

Couldn't care less who started it.

 

[samiam5211]

That's not your decision to make for someone else.

Never said it was my decision to make for someone else.

I was stating my opinion. Sorry it hurt your feelings.

 

[LA - L.A.]

This conflict already moved the needle against Israel. This is the largest reputation all time hit they've ever had in the American consciousness. Americans didn't bat an eye when Trump allowed Netanyahu to steal land in the west Bank. Moved Isreal's capital, and take Palestinians half of Jerusalem. We didn't care that gazans were caged and slowly killed off through raids, which BTW is netanyahu's grand plan. He pumped up hamas by allowing money to cross their borders and intentionally weakened the more moderate pa. We simply didn't care.

But the more Americans are aware of Israel's atrocity, and when that nibbles at their conscious, aipac and the adl will have less sway towards our leaders. The problem is is that Americans instinctually lump in anti zionism with antisemitism. It's a tragedy that only half of Americans favor helping the palestinians when the atrocity is in plain sight. And this is what I mean about a long arduous process of changing hearts and minds. It's difficult to have someone change their behavior and thinking over night. Sometimes it's a generational event when the old guard dies off. And worse still, this happened when we are facing a greater threat at home. Sometimes you have to sort your home in order before we can venture out and help others. If Biden won't change after, I'll be right there with you. But my guess is the breaking point and the banging of heads will be coming sooner rather than later.

Eventually, maybe Americans won't hold israel in such a sacred place as isreal move further and further towards facism.

Oh an update, Lee won her primary despite pressure against her vote against Israeli aid and her being labeled antisemite. It wasn't even close.

Lee winning is a really big sea change election. This election cycle a lot of candidates have decided to fight back against the Israeli lobbies that always threaten to run political adds against anyone if they say or do anything that isn't in full support of Israeli policies and actions.

The Israeli lobbies and the ADL are the ones that label any opposition to Israeli policy as Nazi Germany level antisemitism. I've been waiting for people to fight back against that Israeli version of McCarthyism, with both being designed to prevent criticism of fascist policies by going on the offensive.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Never said it was my decision to make for someone else.

I was stating my opinion.

You stated your opinion as a matter of fact. You think that you know what's best for other people. If you've never experienced starvation, you don't know what you're talking about.

Sorry it hurt your feelings.

This is such a lame thing to say. You know my feelings aren't hurt.

 

[samiam5211]

You stated your opinion as a matter of fact. You think that you know what's best for other people. If you've never experienced starvation, you don't know what your talking about.


This is such a lame thing to say. You know my feelings aren't hurt.

Everything I say is my opinion. That will alwasy be true, even if it is a declarative sentence. Infact, what I just wrote is my opinion.

Everyone who has talked about Israel having a right to defend themselves, even on October 8, has blood on their hands as far as I am concerned.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Everything I say is my opinion. That will alwasy be true, even if it is a declarative sentence. Infact, what I just wrote is my opinion.

And your opinion is that you know what's better for people in a situation you've never been in and are in zero danger of being in.

My point was that your opinions are very judgemental, absolutely certain, and authoritarian.

Everyone who has talked about Israel having a right to defend themselves, even on October 8, has blood on their hands as far as I am concerned.

Like I said, very judgmental.

Everyone past, present and future has blood on their hands, including you and me.

None of us ever truly has any more high ground.

As far as I'm concerned, I hope you are never in a position to make decisions that significantly impact other people. I never want to be in that position.

 

[samiam5211]

And your opinion is that you know what's better for people in a situation you've never been in and are in zero danger of being in.

My point was that your opinions are very judgemental, absolutely certain, and authoritarian.


Like I said, very judgmental.

Everyone past, present and future has blood on their hands, including you and me.

None of us ever truly has any more high ground.

As far as I'm concerned, I hope you are never in a position to make decisions that significantly impact other people. I never want to be in that position.

You are correct, my opinions are highly judgmental.

 

[coldseat]

Everything I say is my opinion. That will alwasy be true, even if it is a declarative sentence. Infact, what I just wrote is my opinion.

Everyone who has talked about Israel having a right to defend themselves, even on October 8, has blood on their hands as far as I am concerned.

So Israel didn't have a right/obligation to respond after a terrorist attack on October 8th? They don't have a right/obligation to defend their own citizens?

Two things can be true at once. Hamas is a terrorist organization that attacked Israel and deserves to be taken out. Hamas' existence has made life orders of magnitude worse for Palestinian citizens just trying to exist. Israel is led by right wing zealots who have used the attack on October 8th to commit genocide in Gaza in defiance of international law in their rabid quest to eliminate Hamas and likely (though not admitted) desire to depopulate Palestinians in Gaza.

There is nobody on the right side of this war because there is no right side, there is no righteousness. There is only death, destruction and despair that is the result of decades of unresolved conflict. Everybody has blood on their hands!

The only lesson I've learned from this conflict is to not allow fascist, right wing zealots control your government, because they will push their agenda until they destroy everything or get what they want.

 

[samiam5211]

So Israel didn't have a right/obligation to respond after a terrorist attack on October 8th? They don't have a right/obligation to defend their own citizens?

Two things can be true at once. Hamas is a terrorist organization that attacked Israel and deserves to be taken out. Hamas' existence has made life orders of magnitude worse for Palestinian citizens just trying to exist. Israel is led by right wing zealots who have used the attack on October 8th to commit genocide in Gaza in defiance of international law in their rabid quest to eliminate Hamas and likely (though not admitted) desire to depopulate Palestinians in Gaza.

There is nobody on the right side of this war because there is no right side, there is no righteousness. There is only death, destruction and despair that is the result of decades of unresolved conflict. Everybody has blood on their hands!

The only lesson I've learned from this conflict is to not allow fascist, right wing zealots control your government, because they will push their agenda until they destroy everything or get what they want.

We all knew what Israel was going to do on October 8. They told us exactly what they were going to do.

No one should be allowed to pretend they were surprised or shocked about what has happened since October 8.

It isn't self-defense.

 

[coldseat]

We all knew what Israel was going to do on October 8. They told us exactly what they were going to do.

No one should be allowed to pretend they were surprised or shocked about what has happened since October 8.

It isn't self-defense.

This was my second response in this thread that I made on October 9th. Nobody is surprised or shocked about what has happened since October 8th. I laid out exactly what would happen and why. That doesn't negate any of the points I made in my last post.

Civilians are always the ones that pay the price, especially when religious hatred, territorial disputes and ideological fervor drive conflicts. It will be no different for the Palestinian citizens that have nothing to do with Hamas that now will pay the price for Israel's retribution. It will also be no less barbaric or genocidal.

I guess what I'm saying is that while Israel may have the moral high ground now in terms or responding to Hamas' terrorist attack, they will eventually lose it with how they will choose to respond. The right wing government they have in place will push (and likely succeed) in responding with the most draconian measures. I expect a lot more death, destruction and atrocities.

 

[samiam5211]

This was my second response in this thread that I made on October 9th. Nobody is surprised or shocked about what has happened since October 8th. I laid exactly what would happen and why. That doesn't negate any of the points I made in my last post.

There is nothing to say at this point except for criticism of Israel.

Even bringing up Hamas at this point enables the genocide.

 

[samiam5211]

Don't think anyone here thinks that the protests at colleges are mainly antisemites, but this is a good video to use if you cross paths with someone who tries to make that claim.

Mike Johnson's little press conference was designed to develop clips for foxnews. He's not so stupid that he thought going there and talking down to the protestors like they were his children would make them see the error of their ways.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Mike Johnson's little press conference was designed to develop clips for foxnews. He's not so stupid that he thought going there and talking down to the protestors like they were his children would make them see the error of their ways.

Mike Johnson is a tool, but we all know that already.

Johnson calls on Columbia University president to resign during tense news conference | CNN Politics

House Speaker Mike Johnson called on Columbia University’s President to resign Wednesday during a tense news conference where the crowd repeatedly interrupted the speaker and at times loudly booed him and other GOP lawmakers who were with him as they stood at the microphones.

www.cnn.com