Israel vs Hamas (1 Viewer)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[GrandAdmiral]

I saw a poll within the last month that 51% of Americans support the Palestinians. There are approximately 100 progressives in congress and not all would agree on israel. One quit the caucus because of the caucus' stance overall against israel. We have powerful pro-israeli lobbies against politicians and pro Palestinian individuals.

So what would you have Biden do? Do you think the in your face, aggressive approach of blocking individual jews helps the Palestinian cause? Come to a professor's home and disrupt a gathering shouting and antagonize the professor. Do you think these actions help?

Obama in Israel: A President at Large

If Obama uses this trip as a first step of many in a concerted effort to persuade, to push, yes, to risk political capital in the name of a peace process, …

www.newyorker.com

I get the frustration. You can search my history and find that I've not been at all complementary of israeli's policies. However, just because one have the moral high ground doesnt mean one has universal support. We need to realize that. Though support and empathy for Palestinians are now a slim majority, there is still strong political support for Israel. Even Fetterman chastise democrats for not supporting Israel after Iran's attack.

The pro-israel side aren't laying down on pressuring Biden either. I have noticed numerous attacks on the pro Palestinian movements on threads and media, labeling them as antisemite. A usc student who earned the right to speak as a valedictorian will not be allowed because of the fear of some anti Israeli message. Student protests are labeled as harassment. Rich donors are pulling their contributions from universities. Obama was labeled an antisemite when he lightly criticized israel.

With that, I believe this is a delicate dance for Biden. Rumor, and Netanyahu is pissed about this, is that the us will sanction an idf unit. We ve already sanctioned some west Bank settlers. These are big steps whether we believe this is piecemeal or not. Unfortunately, israel is still an ally. I don't believe that it's still allies of like minds either. Heck, it's not even an ally of convenience, as it's disruptive to our foreign policy. Israel's response to Iran's counter to israel bombing their consulate should be a tell that they don't care much about what the us says. And it is because they have political cover in the US. Netnayahu's such a pompous asshat that after meeting Bill Clinton, Clinton's response was, "who's the superpower here?" And I've seen reports that Biden have been screaming at Israeli leadership for months.

It is definitely a tough call for Biden. I never said it wasn't. I only stated that this incident, more than the economy, is what I feel could cause him the White House. Two groups that helped him cross the finish line in 2020 - black voters and young voters - have shrunken their support of the president. Both have mentioned Gaza in their complaints.

 

[UriUT]

It is definitely a tough call for Biden. I never said it wasn't. I only stated that this incident, more than the economy, is what I feel could cause him the White House. Two groups that helped him cross the finish line in 2020 - black voters and young voters - have shrunken their support of the president. Both have mentioned Gaza in their complaints.

I didn't mean to appear to be dismissive of your point that Biden is losing support from young voters. I understand and recognize your views. My point is that there are consequences to abandoning israel. It opens him to attacks from the powerful Israeli lobby at a time when he cannot afford to lose any support or the demographic that support aiding israel. Some even from his own caucus. He has to navigate that field full of landmines. I fully agree that Israel must understand that they cannot operate like out of control vigilantes, and condition aid based on those premise. I would love to sever ties as I don't support apartheid. Biden has been clear that he favors a two state solution. But the sandbox that he operates is quite narrow and restrictive. And attacking Biden, when the alternative is drastically anti Palestinian goes against the goals that pro Palestinians seek.

 

[DaveXA]

I didn't mean to appear to be dismissive of your point that Biden is losing support from young voters. I understand and recognize your views. My point is that there are consequences to abandoning israel. It opens him to attacks from the powerful Israeli lobby at a time when he cannot afford to lose any support or the demographic that support aiding israel. Some even from his own caucus. He has to navigate that field full of landmines. I fully agree that Israel must understand that they cannot operate like out of control vigilantes, and condition aid based on those premise. I would love to sever ties as I don't support apartheid. Biden has been clear that he favors a two state solution. But the sandbox that he operates is quite narrow and restrictive. And attacking Biden, when the alternative is drastically anti Palestinian goes against the goals that pro Palestinians seek.

Well said.

 

[SaintForLife]

 

[Heathen]

You understand that changing hearts and minds isn't like switching a light switch on and off? How did the LGBT movement gain acceptance? It isn't because Obama stood on his bully pulpit. The LGBT movement used the legal system and appropriate PR mechanism. It took years, and not folks gluing their hands to the pavement.

The situations are quite a bit different. We don't have years when people are dying by the thousand every month based on our direct involvement.

 

[samiam5211]

The situations are quite a bit different. We don't have years when people are dying by the thousand every month based on our direct involvement.

Yea, i guess we should wait until the Palestinians are dead or resettled in other countries.

There is no worse actor in the Middle East than the state of Israel.

 

[DaveXA]

The situations are quite a bit different. We don't have years when people are dying by the thousand every month based on our direct involvement.

And this is an understandable response. Time certainly isn't on their side right now. I really do hope the end of the offensive is near, but I doubt it since it's become clear that the missing hostages are most likely dead at this point.

 

[Heathen]

Invade an ally, and one with nukes at that. Good luck with all that.

Im thinking it was tongue in cheek. I have much of the same frustration - for many reasons.

I think in a just world, yes, we'd cut off aid entirely to Israel. I don't like my country supporting terrorists.

I don't think 'burn it all down' is either a reasonable use-case nor one we should take. I actually don't know many who think that, as someone on the left. But I think when citizens of this country see year after year billions sent to other nations while Americans continue to be denied expanding basic services to improve their QOL, yeah, folks start to wonder if it really is more of a ruse.

It's all about resource and geopolitical control, I believe. It's hard for me to understand what else it would be. Israel is a huge ally in an area of the world not too friendly to US interests over resource extraction and military presence. Seems we'll keep them in that role at any cost, sadly..

 

[samiam5211]

Im thinking it was tongue in cheek. I have much of the same frustration - for many reasons.

I think in a just world, yes, we'd cut off aid entirely to Israel. I don't like my country supporting terrorists.

I don't think 'burn it all down' is either a reasonable use-case nor one we should take. I actually don't know many who think that, as someone on the left. But I think when citizens of this country see year after year billions sent to other nations while Americans continue to be denied expanding basic services to improve their QOL, yeah, folks start to wonder if it really is more of a ruse.

It's all about resource and geopolitical control, I believe. It's hard for me to understand what else it would be. Israel is a huge ally in an area of the world not too friendly to US interests over resource extraction and military presence. Seems we'll keep them in that role at any cost, sadly..

Yes, the US will keep doing whatever it takes to make sure our lives are as easy as possible, at any cost.

 

[SaintForLife]

The president should have been doing more all along. He should have said that our support wasn't unconditional as early as October 8.

It was obvious what Israel was going to do. We shouldn't get to pretend we are shocked at what has happened in the past 6 months.

We are at the point where drastic measures are the only option left. We should absolutely cut off all aid to Israel immediately.

He could definitely cut off all aid immediately and Isreal would be forced to stop the genocide. But you are discussing this with people who believe everything the US war machine and US foreign policy tells them.

They can't grasp that Biden is enabling the genocide because they truly believe our foreign policy is always to be trusted.

 

[SaintForLife]

You are severely misinformed. I've posted a few articles in this thread. As a matter of fact, Bibi's policy is quietly to acquiesce to a dem president and wait for a Republican president to do as he pleases. He says he is all for a two state solution but once Trump comes in, he ignores all Palestinian grievances and bulldoze his way to getting more West Bank lands. While Obama and Biden opposes those measures despite heavy pro israeli forces.

Trying to shift the blame to Trump for Biden enabling genocide?

Biden supports the two state solution! There won't be any Palestinians left to form a state if the genocide continues. This will be Biden's legacy.

 

[samiam5211]

He could definitely cut off all aid immediately and Isreal would be forced to stop the genocide. But you are discussing this with people who believe everything the US war machine and US foreign policy tells them.

They can't grasp that Biden is enabling the genocide because they truly believe our foreign policy is always to be trusted.

Yea, it appears that we didn't have an option in 2020 that wouldn't be supporting this genocide.

 

[UriUT]

Im thinking it was tongue in cheek. I have much of the same frustration - for many reasons.

I think in a just world, yes, we'd cut off aid entirely to Israel. I don't like my country supporting terrorists.

I don't think 'burn it all down' is either a reasonable use-case nor one we should take. I actually don't know many who think that, as someone on the left. But I think when citizens of this country see year after year billions sent to other nations while Americans continue to be denied expanding basic services to improve their QOL, yeah, folks start to wonder if it really is more of a ruse.

It's all about resource and geopolitical control, I believe. It's hard for me to understand what else it would be. Israel is a huge ally in an area of the world not too friendly to US interests over resource extraction and military presence. Seems we'll keep them in that role at any cost, sadly..

That is my point, isn't it? Americans hold some mythical view of Israel; evangelicals' infatuation of the second coming only if Israel exists; some view Israel as a bastion of democracy in a sea of despot; and some view Israel as some convenient regional ally stabilizing oil commerce. I subscribe to none of these, and argue that geopolitically, Israel damages our foreign affairs. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Americans instinctively supports Israel, including Biden. It isn't wise to poke the hornet's nest especially when the next election is contentious. This doesn't even account for the monstrous arm of the Israeli lobby, as Obama realized during his administration. Or how about this BS below:

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/23/pennsylvania-house-race-israel-hamas-war-00153456

“If Summer Lee retains her seat, does that mean people don’t care that much about the war? No,” said Sue Berman Kress, a Pittsburgh-based Jewish activist who is supporting Patel. “But if she loses her seat as the incumbent … I think that’ll be a big reason.”

We'll find out in a few hours what it means for her to vote against the Israeli aid package. And I hope she wins tonight.

Despite all this, Biden has tried to temper this Israeli bloodlust. Biden has opened up some humanitarian aid [edit: without Biden's administration pushing for those crossings, would Netanyahu do it? Of course not. ], and created a safe zone in Rafah. [edit: Diplomatically, he is pushing for a ceasefire...and the two parties have to agree]. [edit: I emphatically disagree with this notion, especially at this stage of the conflict, but Israel is fighting Hamas, a terrorist organization. Some Americans hold this position and still empathize with Israel on that basis. The question then is, who are we to tell the Israeli what to do when we ourselves didn't behave after 9/11] Israeli in general gives a rats arse about Gazan. And more importantly, Netanyahu can care less and isn't listening to anyone. American presidents don't generally get into confrontations with Israeli PM, yet we are on the verge of that.

https://www.axios.com/2024/04/20/us-israel-sanctions-idf-west-bank

The US has not sanctioned Israel since Eisenhower. Biden told Netanyahu that we'll not be involved in retaliatory strikes on Iran, yet he still does it.

The situations are quite a bit different. We don't have years when people are dying by the thousand every month based on our direct involvement.

So start a real movement. Start by supporting Rep Lee in Pennsylvania. Michigan was a good start. Give Biden political cover.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Just so you know, I agree with you on Israel, but Biden and Trump's stance aren't even in the same ball park. It's not even on the same planet. It will be considerably worse under Trump when Israel has zero checks on what they can and cannot do.

Being reactionary is often shortsighted as it is in this case.

If Trump wins the election, not only will it get a lot worse for all Palestinians anywhere near Israel, not just in Gaza, but ethnic cleansing will escalate all across the planet against a lot of different ethnic groups.

If one's goal is to protect as many people as possible, not just the Palestinians in Gaza, from being mass murdered just for their ethnicity then one better pray to their god or gods that Trump doesn't win the election, because there's going to be a global pandemic of mass murdering ethnic cleansing if Trump wins in November.

 

[LA - L.A.]

There isn't really a "worse" in Gaza that what has happened. Not of any substantive measure. It could not be worse for the people in Gaza that it is right now.

A little reality based perspective on just how much worse things could get in Gaza.

The story of Gaza’s destruction in 100 lives – a visual guide

If a population of 2.2 million were distilled into 100 people, here’s what each one would have experienced amid Israel’s attacks

www.theguardian.com

• 25% of the people in Gaza are starving. Starvation could get up to 3 times worse.
• 1% of the people have been killed. That could get tremendously worse.
• 85% of the people have been displaced. Tragically, that's the only thing that couldn't get much worse.

It's estimated there are still over 2 million people alive in Gaza. Even if only 25% of them were murdered, that's 530,000 murdered vs. 30,000. Neither amount of murdering is good, but 530,000 if a lot worse than 30,000.

 

[samiam5211]

A little reality based perspective on just how much worse things could get in Gaza.

The story of Gaza’s destruction in 100 lives – a visual guide

If a population of 2.2 million were distilled into 100 people, here’s what each one would have experienced amid Israel’s attacks

www.theguardian.com

• 25% of the people in Gaza are starving. Starvation could get up to 3 times worse.
• 1% of the people have been killed. That could get tremendously worse.
• 85% of the people have been displaced. Tragically, that's the only thing that couldn't get much worse.

It's estimated there are still over 2 million people alive in Gaza. Even if only 25% of them were murdered, that's 530,000 murdered vs. 30,000. Neither amount of murdering is good, but 530,000 if a lot worse than 30,000.

Most of them would be better off if they had died during the first days of the war.

 

[DaveXA]

Most of them would be better off if they had died during the first days of the war.

Now that's a horrific take. Good grief. I get being cynical, but saying Gazans would be better off dead is beyond the pale.

 

[samiam5211]

Now that's a horrific take. Good grief. I get being cynical, but saying Gazans would be better off dead is beyond the pale.

Being dead beats starving to death.