Israel vs Hamas (5 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

Straw man. No one is suggesting they kill every person in Gaza.

However, it is your suggestion that because civilians in Gaza will die with an Israeli invasion (which I certainly concede will happen), that Israel should not invade Gaza. But if they don't do that, they will continue to be attacked. Hundreds of hostages will remain as prisoners at best, or be executed at worst.


Certainly. But if they can surprise Israel here, and if Al-Qaeda can surprise the US, and if ISIS can surprise Iraq, and we leave them to their own devices, then another "surprise" in the future is about the least surprising thing I can think of.


Diplomacy is the long-term solution. Ensuring security for the citizens of Israel is the short-term solution. You do this by "taking the fight to them," as the US has frequently demonstrated in the past.

I'd also be careful about your continued use of "bloodlust" in reference to Israelis. This isn't about bloodlust. It's about security.

I don't think I fully understand the analogy, but as it stands, if the frog dies either way, then I don't think it matters, other than perhaps the suffering involved.


The core issue of this conflict is that Hamas attacked Israel, targeting, kidnapping, and murdering civilians.

The core issue is that while we're demanding Israel to exercise restraint, Hamas did no such thing. I'm no supporter of Netanyahu or often the Israeli government at large, but they have every right to retaliate against Hamas, just as Ukraine has every right to retaliate against Moscow. It doesn't matter that Israel is the more powerful of the two nations. They were attacked, and they get to respond.

I do agree with one thing, whether Palestinians like it or not, Hamas essentially declared war on Israel. So a war is what they wanted, and a war they're getting.

The other things about goading Israel into a war are true as well though. And the goal for Hamas is to wreck the agreements and attempt to cause Israel to lose the high ground and lose their core support from the US and NATO.

 

[UriUT]

Straw man. No one is suggesting they kill every person in Gaza.

However, it is your suggestion that because civilians in Gaza will die with an Israeli invasion (which I certainly concede will happen), that Israel should not invade Gaza. But if they don't do that, they will continue to be attacked. Hundreds of hostages will remain as prisoners at best, or be executed at worst.


Certainly. But if they can surprise Israel here, and if Al-Qaeda can surprise the US, and if ISIS can surprise Iraq, and we leave them to their own devices, then another "surprise" in the future is about the least surprising thing I can think of.


Diplomacy is the long-term solution. Ensuring security for the citizens of Israel is the short-term solution. You do this by "taking the fight to them," as the US has frequently demonstrated in the past.

I'd also be careful about your continued use of "bloodlust" in reference to Israelis. This isn't about bloodlust. It's about security.

I don't think I fully understand the analogy, but as it stands, if the frog dies either way, then I don't think it matters, other than perhaps the suffering involved.


The core issue of this conflict is that Hamas attacked Israel, targeting, kidnapping, and murdering civilians.

The core issue is that while we're demanding Israel to exercise restraint, Hamas did no such thing. I'm no supporter of Netanyahu or often the Israeli government at large, but they have every right to retaliate against Hamas, just as Ukraine has every right to retaliate against Moscow. It doesn't matter that Israel is the more powerful of the two nations. They were attacked, and they get to respond.

Frogs are the civilians. Do you care that palestinians are dying slowly from draconian oppressions or do you care more that a mass terror attack brutally killed Israelis?

If you think this is strictly about Hamas, then you see this conflict in a vacuum. I see questions asking if Palestinians deserve their fate was determinant on their support for Hamas. Flip it: did those Israeli deserve their fate hamas inflicted based on their support of the far right Israeli government and it's policy?

And I've explained this before. I may understand why Hamas did what they did. I don't condone how they did it. They are terrorists, and we can't reason with them bc they are not a state actor. Israel is and what they do reflects on us. They are the dominant force and they cannot, should not, will not have free reign to kill indiscriminately. We don't have the same control or sway over hamas. Don't pull that both sides crap as that cannot be justification to allow killing anyone Israel pleases just bc Hamas does.

 

[UriUT]

I'd say you can count on that.

Yeah. I really hope this doesn't get blown up beyond gaza.

 

[MT15]

Hamas is hell bent on the destruction of Israel and everybody who lives there. They didn’t show any mercy or restraint on civilian lives in Israel, nor do they show any restraint on the lives of ordinary Palestinians. The best way I heard it described was this: to Hamas a dead Israeli is a victory whether it is man, woman, child, elder. To Hamas a dead Palestinian is also a victory especially if it is a woman or a child, because they get to use that to turn public opinion against their sworn enemies. They are forbidding civilians to leave targeted areas wherever they can.

I read that at least one of the Kibbutzim near the border had been doing outreach toward the civilians of Gaza. They even taught their children Arabic as well as Hebrew. Apparently that Kibbutz was targeted specifically with particularly barbaric fury by Hamas. Hamas doesn’t want a two state solution. They want all Israelis to die.

Hamas isn’t an organization you can deal with. They don’t want anything except for Israelis to die.

This isn’t “both sides crap”, these are facts.

 

[UriUT]

Hamas is hell bent on the destruction of Israel and everybody who lives there. They didn’t show any mercy or restraint on civilian lives in Israel, nor do they show any restraint on the lives of ordinary Palestinians. The best way I heard it described was this: to Hamas a dead Israeli is a victory whether it is man, woman, child, elder. To Hamas a dead Palestinian is also a victory especially if it is a woman or a child, because they get to use that to turn public opinion against their sworn enemies. They are forbidding civilians to leave targeted areas wherever they can.

I read that at least one of the Kibbutzim near the border had been doing outreach toward the civilians of Gaza. They even taught their children Arabic as well as Hebrew. Apparently that Kibbutz was targeted specifically with particularly barbaric fury by Hamas. Hamas doesn’t want a two state solution. They want all Israelis to die.

Hamas isn’t an organization you can deal with. They don’t want anything except for Israelis to die.

This isn’t “both sides crap”, these are facts.

Are you justifying Israel be allowed to kill, bomb, raze everything in their path? Bc the hospital event sure says otherwise.

 

[UriUT]

Hamas is hell bent on the destruction of Israel and everybody who lives there. They didn’t show any mercy or restraint on civilian lives in Israel, nor do they show any restraint on the lives of ordinary Palestinians. The best way I heard it described was this: to Hamas a dead Israeli is a victory whether it is man, woman, child, elder. To Hamas a dead Palestinian is also a victory especially if it is a woman or a child, because they get to use that to turn public opinion against their sworn enemies. They are forbidding civilians to leave targeted areas wherever they can.

I read that at least one of the Kibbutzim near the border had been doing outreach toward the civilians of Gaza. They even taught their children Arabic as well as Hebrew. Apparently that Kibbutz was targeted specifically with particularly barbaric fury by Hamas. Hamas doesn’t want a two state solution. They want all Israelis to die.

Hamas isn’t an organization you can deal with. They don’t want anything except for Israelis to die.

This isn’t “both sides crap”, these are facts.

And you know what? You bring these sad, tragic events up. I empathize. No justifying it. But you have not brought anything that Israel has done these past decades. Do you not care that these right wing thugs pour gasoline on palestinians and lit them on fire? All the innocent bystanders getting shot by Israeli convoys? Walled up like prisoners? All 2.5 million of them? None of this achieves a thing. Precisely bc the Israeli chose a one state path and said to hell with the Palestinians. And worse, this government propped up hamas.

Or how out of control these far right orthodox Jews have become that they assault Christians and spit on them?

 

[DaveXA]

Are you justifying Israel be allowed to kill, bomb, raze everything in their path? Bc the hospital event sure says otherwise.

The hospital event you're referencing wasn't an Israeli attack. That was apparently an accident caused by a missile that was either misfired or shot down and caused the explosion on the ground.

There's plenty of other examples you can reference.

Regardless, she's not wrong. The responsibility for where we're at lies squarely with Hamas.

It certainly can be debated whether Israel's response is too heavy handed, but they certainly did have to respond harshly a terrorist group openly declaring war on them.

 

[DaveXA]

And you know what? You bring these sad, tragic events up. I empathize. No justifying it. But you have not brought anything that Israel has done these past decades. Do you not care that these right wing thugs pour gasoline on palestinians and lit them on fire? All the innocent bystanders getting shot by Israeli convoys? Walled up like prisoners? All 2.5 million of them? None of this achieves a thing. Precisely bc the Israeli chose a one state path and said to hell with the Palestinians. And worse, this government propped up hamas.

Or how out of control these far right orthodox Jews have become that they assault Christians and spit on them?

None of that justifies what Hamas did, period.

And yes, most people don't care for how all of that was handled and Israel has been rightly criticized for it.

 

[UriUT]

The hospital event you're referencing wasn't an Israeli attack. That was apparently an accident caused by a missile that was either misfired or shot down and caused the explosion on the ground.

There's plenty of other examples you can reference.

Regardless, she's not wrong. The responsibility for where we're at lies squarely with Hamas.

It certainly can be debated whether Israel's response is too heavy handed, but they certainly did have to respond harshly a terrorist group openly declaring war on them.

That isn't important. The reaction when it was thought that Israel showed how fragile the situation is.

 

[UriUT]

None of that justifies what Hamas did, period.

And yes, most people don't care for how all of that was handled and Israel has been rightly criticized for it.

And no one is justifying it.

 

[DaveXA]

That isn't important. The reaction when it was thought that Israel showed how fragile the situation is.

Agreed, the situation is fragile for sure.

 

[DaveXA]

And no one is justifying it.

Then why are you bringing all of that up? We all know none of this is in a vacuum. And are aware of the mistakes and wrongs Israel has made. We don't need qualifiers when talking about what Hamas did.

 

[UriUT]

Then why are you bringing all of that up? We all know none of this is in a vacuum. And are aware of the mistakes and wrongs Israel has made. We don't need qualifiers when talking about what Hamas did.

As an example that Israel cannot do as they please. There are consequences to the damage that they inflict. We are guilty by association.

What they do can cause trouble that we cannot contain.

Edit sorry...thought you meant the hospital. Bc what I replied to requires that I point out that these events are not in a vacuum

 

[MT15]

And no one is justifying it.

You don‘t justify Hamas, but you definitely sympathize with the Palestinian cause. Which is certainly your right to do so. My point is that neither “side” has clean hands here. Not Israelis and not PalestinIans. They have both committed atrocities. The situation is very convoluted, it isn’t as black and white as you make it out to be. That’s all.

 

[UriUT]

Diplomacy is the long-term solution. Ensuring security for the citizens of Israel is the short-term solution. You do this by "taking the fight to them," as the US has frequently demonstrated in the past.

I'd also be careful about your continued use of "bloodlust" in reference to Israelis. This isn't about bloodlust. It's about security.

Diplomacy is what's keeping this from spreading. Diplomacy is why Biden is praised. Diplomacy is why we even have some humanitarian aid. Diplomacy is what's minimizing civilian casualties.

You keep saying security. Israel says they will pull back once the tunnels and hamas assets are destroyed. Hamas won't be destroyed as some will hide and escape amongst the civilians. Surely you even said we're not killing everyone. So once Israel pulls back, did Israel prevent further future rocket attacks? Bc we re back at square one.

Anything solved? The animosity will still be there.

 

[UriUT]

You don‘t justify Hamas, but you definitely sympathize with the Palestinian cause. Which is certainly your right to do so. My point is that neither “side” has clean hands here. Not Israelis and not PalestinIans. They have both committed atrocities. The situation is very convoluted, it isn’t as black and white as you make it out to be. That’s all.

I never said this was simple. Hate isn't simple. I have no illusions that this will be solved in my lifetime as they hate each other. I am simply pointing out that all these rah rah that Israel can do what they want is insane. Other than human lives lost, I don't care about these religious and territorial conflicts. It astounds me that the aqsa mosques is considered important. The wailing wall. Id nuke it in an instant. What matters to me is that Israel's policy and it's opposing reaction by the Palestinians is dragging us into a possible conflict. Morally, the apartheid state is disgusting. The terrorist bombing reaction is repulsive.

I've said it many times. Peace only comes when both sides can trust each other. The PA has been a choice. Israel's far right turn is a source of the problem and is the concern. That is my source of criticism bc I think they are the problem now. Propping up hamas and undermining the PA. Hamas doing what they do doesn't help. But we cannot dictate to them can we? Why not prop up a counterweight in the pa?

 

[coldseat]

You don‘t justify Hamas, but you definitely sympathize with the Palestinian cause. Which is certainly your right to do so. My point is that neither “side” has clean hands here. Not Israelis and not PalestinIans. They have both committed atrocities. The situation is very convoluted, it isn’t as black and white as you make it out to be. That’s all.

I think what he's trying to say is that the solution to this situation Israel and the Palestinians are in is not to commit more atrocities. A genocide of the Palestinian people, regardless of what proceeded it, would be an atrocity.

I just think Israel has to find another way that doesn't add another atrocity, beyond what it already is.

 

[UriUT]

I think what he's trying to say is that the solution to this situation Israel and the Palestinians are in is not to commit more atrocities. A genocide of the Palestinian people, regardless of what proceeded it, would be an atrocity.

I just think Israel has to find another way that doesn't add another atrocity, beyond what it already is.

Most certainly this is the moral justification for restraint. There is also a strategic argument. The US is trying to contain this conflict. What the hospital incident showed is that unjust killing will incite regional instability. We are helping Israel and ourselves by asking for restraint. We saw that there were mass protests and the King of Jordan had to cancel a meeting with Biden. This is volatile, and, in addition to the moral aspect, we cannot allow israel free reign. I don't want war with Iran. I don't want chaos in the middle east and other arab nations forced into a war.