Israel vs Hamas (3 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[UriUT]

So what I see here is a litany of grievances against Israel, and ignoring every atrocity committed by anyone else. It’s correct to recognize Palestinian resentment, and Israel has taken a turn to the right. Sadly. But, your statement that you bring all this up as a counterbalance to this “narrative that Israel did no wrong” is a bit confusing because I don’t recall anybody making that assertion. The moralizing is a bit grating as well.

There is a definite narrative being pushed - not by you, this is a general observation now - and I am seeing some very troubling words and actions. Young people in particular are excusing Hamas, even lionizing them as freedom fighters. I also saw recently that TikTok, for one, is actively pushing anti-Israeli, pro-Hamas sentiment through its algorithms. We need to remember that this particular social platform is controlled by one of our adversaries. Our adversaries are celebrating every time we get more divided, more fractious as a country because it confirms their narrative that democracy is a bad system that doesn’t work.

Also, to address the idea that a couple of people here have put forth, that they will not vote for Biden now because he is supporting Israel - this is privilege talking. These posters will be fine if Trump is re-elected. POC, LBGTQ, women will definitely not be fine. Keep in mind, Biden is fulfilling our obligations, put in place long before he became president, to support an ally. He’s doing everything he can possibly do to keep this from becoming a full-blown regional war. If we elect Trump, nothing improves. At all.

I'll start by saying I'll not run away from my statement that the current Israeli government are full of scumbags. I have also stated that Hamas are terrorists and my first comment in this thread is that they are the reason why the Palestinians will not have a state of their own. There isn't any need on my part to go into detail of how awful they are because there're plenty here. And if you haven't seen any of the narrative that israel did no wrong, read the thread from the beginning. Do you remember the fascists/nazism discussion? And did you read the comment that I replied to? That Israel did nothing wrong? Or am I just imagining things?

And really, it's a terrible thing to say when I point out all the shirt that Israel did as a point to say this isn't all in a vacuum...to understand the dynamics of the whole stupid mess (Yes dave, this is stupid to me but not to them...i got it)....and then you describe it as a "litany of grievances". Are those things just that to you? Just grievances?

Are you more emotionally triggered by a slowly boiling frog or one that is stumped?

There is a definite narrative being pushed - not by you, this is a general observation now - and I am seeing some very troubling words and actions. Young people in particular are excusing Hamas, even lionizing them as freedom fighters. I also saw recently that TikTok, for one, is actively pushing anti-Israeli, pro-Hamas sentiment through its algorithms. We need to remember that this particular social platform is controlled by one of our adversaries. Our adversaries are celebrating every time we get more divided, more fractious as a country because it confirms their narrative that democracy is a bad system that doesn’t work.

And above, just illustrates just how messed up this whole thing is. You don't imagine why they lionize Hamas? They shouldn't because of the violence...but there is zero attempt to understand why these people feel the way they feel. You automatically see evil in them. And I'll also point out that they're probably doing the same, asking how you can support an oppressive government. Do you also understand that when you complain why Hamas aren't held to the same standards as the Israelis, you are implicitly saying that Israel is on Hamas' level?

This is a dead weight issue. No one's going to be happy because each side cannot seem to push the hate aside. All because of a bunch of idiots halfway across the world. And worse, we may get dragged into a military conflict.

 

[DaveXA]

So what I see here is a litany of grievances against Israel, and ignoring every atrocity committed by anyone else. It’s correct to recognize Palestinian resentment, and Israel has taken a turn to the right. Sadly. But, your statement that you bring all this up as a counterbalance to this “narrative that Israel did no wrong” is a bit confusing because I don’t recall anybody making that assertion. The moralizing is a bit grating as well.

There is a definite narrative being pushed - not by you, this is a general observation now - and I am seeing some very troubling words and actions. Young people in particular are excusing Hamas, even lionizing them as freedom fighters. I also saw recently that TikTok, for one, is actively pushing anti-Israeli, pro-Hamas sentiment through its algorithms. We need to remember that this particular social platform is controlled by one of our adversaries. Our adversaries are celebrating every time we get more divided, more fractious as a country because it confirms their narrative that democracy is a bad system that doesn’t work.

Also, to address the idea that a couple of people here have put forth, that they will not vote for Biden now because he is supporting Israel - this is privilege talking. These posters will be fine if Trump is re-elected. POC, LBGTQ, women will definitely not be fine. Keep in mind, Biden is fulfilling our obligations, put in place long before he became president, to support an ally. He’s doing everything he can possibly do to keep this from becoming a full-blown regional war. If we elect Trump, nothing improves. At all.

Nothing improves? Understatement of the year, heh. More like things will get a whole hell of a lot worse if Trump gets elected. The choice couldn't be more stark.

 

[Dragon]

I think that Biden is like a duck in water - doing what is needed above the surface and paddling like crazy trying to get the different sides to the negotiation table behind the scenes.

I don't blame Biden at all - while I certainly think that there is 2 sides to this conflict, Hamas is a terrorist organisation sponsored by Iran and Russia and should not in anyway be considered anything but a terrorist organisation and be treated as such. Do I believe that Israel has overreacted - yes I do. In some ways Bibi is the counterpart to Hamas, He and his ultra-rigth followers has behaved just as much as terrrorists in Gaza for years, with random killings, protesters disappearing and destruction of infrastructure. Unfortunately the Israelian population and the people in Gaza has been caught between these two extreme sides. Both with a wish to exterminate the other.

 

[MT15]

You don't imagine why they lionize Hamas? They shouldn't because of the violence...but there is zero attempt to understand why these people feel the way they feel. You automatically see evil in them.

I think you misunderstand who the people that I was talking about who are lionizing Hamas. They are American college students. And I never said I see evil in them. Stating that Israel is held to a higher standard than Hamas by world opinion is just a fact. Israel is expected to uphold the current protections for civilians that are internationally recognized during wartime and is rightly condemned when they do not. Hanas never upholds any of these standards, and are excused by certain factions in this country and abroad.

I do see evil in Hamas, and I stand by that opinion. It isn’t a close call. If you condemn any of Israel’s atrocities, but say you understand why Hamas did what they did, well you are in effect taking sides. You are saying - it’s understandable why Hamas butchered, raped and tortured civilians. There have been plenty of atrocities committed by people in the Middle East against Israelis as well. Yet we expect Israel to uphold certain standards. They are being treated differently.

Looking at the entire region and its history and saying this group are the oppressed and this group is the oppressor is pretty short-sighted, IMHO. They all take turns oppressing each other since the dawn of time. They all deserve to be valued and have a homeland.

I do try not to put words in peoples’ mouths. I’m far from perfect and sometimes fail. But telling me that I make zero attempt to understand “these people” - if you mean Palestinians in general- then you are just dead wrong.

 

[MT15]

 

[Heathen]

There is a definite narrative being pushed - not by you, this is a general observation now - and I am seeing some very troubling words and actions. Young people in particular are excusing Hamas, even lionizing them as freedom fighters. I also saw recently that TikTok, for one, is actively pushing anti-Israeli, pro-Hamas sentiment through its algorithms. We need to remember that this particular social platform is controlled by one of our adversaries. Our adversaries are celebrating every time we get more divided, more fractious as a country because it confirms their narrative that democracy is a bad system that doesn’t work.

I mean, if we're just going by anecdotal evidence alone, I've noticed that many older people and 'establishment' types on both sides of the US political spectrum are doubling down in their support for Israel, even after clearly being exposed to the atrocities that Israel has committed against innocent people in Palestine.

It's troubling and sad in my eyes to see so much unyielding support for what is to anyone paying attention an apartheid regime. It is clear that never ending war and the propagation of the narratives of western media has really taken a hold in the minds of so many Americans.

I think that most reasonable people from the side you're referring to feel that the situation in Gaza is more complex than "Hamas started it - Israel has a right to finish it". No one is excusing Hamas' terror attack and massacre on the concert attendees. Truly a horrendous act and one that should be responded to.

But in the same light, Israel's regime of terror on innocents on the Palestinian people should be framed as such. To be above that word - terrorism...would be to not engage in what they are now. It fits. And the United States is not budging in their support of that.

Also, to address the idea that a couple of people here have put forth, that they will not vote for Biden now because he is supporting Israel - this is privilege talking. These posters will be fine if Trump is re-elected. POC, LBGTQ, women will definitely not be fine. Keep in mind, Biden is fulfilling our obligations, put in place long before he became president, to support an ally. He’s doing everything he can possibly do to keep this from becoming a full-blown regional war. If we elect Trump, nothing improves. At all.

We're all speaking from privilege to some degree. The American people could vote in an individual who strongly aligns with the international community condemning the bloodshed of innocents in Gaza, potentially influencing our ally to the point that many lives are saved - but they don't. This is why there is no 'holier than thou' in a situation such as this. It's more complex than some try to make it out to be.

So, you want to talk about privilege - well, it's ubiquitous and really we as Americans are ALL complicit in some way.

I don't know the best path forward, or if there is one at all.

 

[MT15]

I think that most reasonable people from the side you're referring to feel that the situation in Gaza is more complex than "Hamas started it - Israel has a right to finish it". No one is excusing Hamas' terror attack and massacre on the concert attendees. Truly a horrendous act and one that should be responded to.

But in the same light, Israel's regime of terror on innocents on the Palestinian people should be framed as such. To be above that word - terrorism...would be to not engage in what they are now. It fits. And the United States is not budging in their support of that.

What I was saying is that there certainly are people who are excusing the Hamas attack. I don’t know why they do so, but they are definitely doing so. It really isn’t anecdotal. There was a poll showing the support in America, which I didn’t bookmark. If I find it I will post it.

How would you advise Israel to respond? What should they do? I don’t like what they are doing either, but I have no earthly idea what they could do that would allow them to get to a terrorist organization that is intentionally using civilians as shields.

The relationship between the US and Israel is complicated.

 

[UriUT]

I think you misunderstand who the people that I was talking about who are lionizing Hamas. They are American college students. And I never said I see evil in them. Stating that Israel is held to a higher standard than Hamas by world opinion is just a fact. Israel is expected to uphold the current protections for civilians that are internationally recognized during wartime and is rightly condemned when they do not. Hanas never upholds any of these standards, and are excused by certain factions in this country and abroad.

I do see evil in Hamas, and I stand by that opinion. It isn’t a close call. If you condemn any of Israel’s atrocities, but say you understand why Hamas did what they did, well you are in effect taking sides. You are saying - it’s understandable why Hamas butchered, raped and tortured civilians. There have been plenty of atrocities committed by people in the Middle East against Israelis as well. Yet we expect Israel to uphold certain standards. They are being treated differently.

Looking at the entire region and its history and saying this group are the oppressed and this group is the oppressor is pretty short-sighted, IMHO. They all take turns oppressing each other since the dawn of time. They all deserve to be valued and have a homeland.

I do try not to put words in peoples’ mouths. I’m far from perfect and sometimes fail. But telling me that I make zero attempt to understand “these people” - if you mean Palestinians in general- then you are just dead wrong.

I was actually pointing at your complaint at why young people view hamas highly. My description of seeing evil wasn't the best. What I should say was that you think they are supporting evil [edit: or see evil in them]. Hamas is despicable. I'm not denying that. But in order to resolve this insanity is to understand why. Hamas isn't the source but a product. They have stated that they planned this attack because of they view that the Israeli government was moving farther and farther right. That they felt left behind with every Arab government normalizing relations. Perhaps those young people sympathize with that view. We won't know until we understand them as they need to understand your views. Certainly you have stated that you do not like netanyahu. But perhaps they view you supporting the far right policy when you support more actions towards Hamas?

[Edit: note the reaction against Biden as he tries to cool down the temperature. It's viewed that he supports Israel's apartheid policies. He's not. He and Obama has yelled that they want a two state solution.]

And I want to make this clear. In no way do I sympathize with Hamas killing innocent lives. When I say I understand them I meant their supposed declared goals. That palestinians are oppressed. The plo once bombed and killed innocent lives. The ira used to do the same. I do not care for violent reprisals. Read my history preferring passive resistance. Hell that's what the "historic" Jesus did with Roman occupation.

Looking at the entire region and its history and saying this group are the oppressed and this group is the oppressor is pretty short-sighted, IMHO. They all take turns oppressing each other since the dawn of time. They all deserve to be valued and have a homeland.

I really don't know how to respond to this. Are you justifying oppression bc it's everywhere in the middle east? Regardless, it doesn't matter how you feel as it hasn't any bearing on why terrorist attacks happens.. How Hamas, the PA, the Palestinians, and their supporters are responding violently matters. You are not oppressed by the Israeli.

Edit:

I do see evil in Hamas, and I stand by that opinion. It isn’t a close call. If you condemn any of Israel’s atrocities, but say you understand why Hamas did what they did, well you are in effect taking sides.

I'll tell you if it's not already apparent. I despise authoritarians. PiS in Poland, Orban, Erdogan, Putin, Trump, Netantyahu, etc. I will always harshly criticize them and their policies. If you think I'm picking sides, look back at how I advocate for a long term peace plan that gives Israeli a chance to live peacefully, as well as the Palestinians. I'm not apologizing for that.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Ron DeSantis is receiving pushback from Israeli diplomats, Florida Democrats and the White House after he falsely claimed credit for a gun-running operation to assist Israel’s military operations in Gaza.

The Florida governor and 2024 presidential hopeful declared on Thursday that he had worked with Israel’s consul general in Miami to send military equipment, including drones, body armor and helmets.

His office, according to Reuters, said it had worked to “get weapons and ammunition to Israel through private parties” as part of his high-profile “rescue operation”. The operation involved sending humanitarian supplies on chartered planes and returning from Israel hundreds of US citizens who wanted to come home following the Hamas attacks.

His boast, however, started to unravel when Maor Elbaz-Starinsky, Israel’s consul general, told the news agency he had not asked for DeSantis’s help, and that the governor’s involvement was limited to smoothing paperwork requirements for a previously arranged shipment of “rifle parts” ordered by his government.

“I am not aware and would find it very, very bizarre to think that somebody is procuring weapons and sending it to Israel,” he said. “This is not how we work. And certainly not privately funded.”

DeSantis has made hardline support of Israel a prominent part of his flailing campaign for the Republican presidential nomination, pledging to turn away Palestinian refugees if he was in the White House, and expelling pro-Palestinian student groups from Florida’s university campuses.

He has called a special session of the Florida legislature for early next month to approve state sanctions on Iranian businesses and interests.….

Critics accuse him of acting as if he were president, and operating a de facto foreign policy from the governor’s mansion in Tallahassee that is not under his purview.

“President Biden is the commander in chief of our military, not Ron DeSantis,” said Nikki Fried, chair of the Florida Democratic party, in a statement to the Miami Herald……

Ron DeSantis’s claim he sent military equipment to Israel unravels

Florida governor receives pushback for falsely declaring he worked with Israel’s consul general in Miami to send weapons

www.theguardian.com

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

.................................. The American people could vote in an individual who strongly aligns with the international community condemning the bloodshed of innocents in Gaza, potentially influencing our ally to the point that many lives are saved - but they don't. This is why there is no 'holier than thou' in a situation such as this. It's more complex than some try to make it out to be.

So, you want to talk about privilege - well, it's ubiquitous and really we as Americans are ALL complicit in some way.

I don't know the best path forward, or if there is one at all.

That could very well be going on now under Biden.

 

[Heathen]

What I was saying is that there certainly are people who are excusing the Hamas attack. I don’t know why they do so, but they are definitely doing so. It really isn’t anecdotal. There was a poll showing the support in America, which I didn’t bookmark. If I find it I will post it.

I'm sure there are a few fringe sick people that have that view - specifically, as you mention, who 'excuse Hamas' massacre of innocent lives.

Not to excuse that truly disgusting position, but maybe there are those who say they 'understand it', which would be a key distinction. I don't think understanding of how someone or group came to do something terrible is any indication of support or should be viewed as such.

At any rate, I would like to see that poll. Disturbing if true.

How would you advise Israel to respond? What should they do? I don’t like what they are doing either, but I have no earthly idea what they could do that would allow them to get to a terrorist organization that is intentionally using civilians as shields.

The relationship between the US and Israel is complicated.

I've mentioned that I don't have the answer, and don't pretend to have in-depth knowledge of conflict resolution - especially in such a historically complex landscape.

I do think that I've seen enough evidence of Israeli air attacks to know that even if they are targeting Hamas' strongholds - they have made it quite clear in action at least, that innocent citizens will suffer as a result of those who reside amongst them. Not only citizens, but anyone. That's why I say it's indiscriminate. They've killed UN employees. They've killed journalists. They've bombed areas where they've told Gazans to flee (in the south). There doesn't seem to be restraint. They know what they're doing - even cutting off aid, water, power, internet etc.

I don't know the answer in how Israel should respond. I know that thousands of children are being blown to pieces and thousands more will have long-term negative effects from what Israel is doing and will continue to do. And they are pretty clearly war crimes.

 

[samiam5211]

on 10/8 Israel should have reached out to the US to ask them to start putting pressure on some countries to start condemning the attack and blaming Iran for supporting Hamas.

Saudi Arabia would have gladly participated in this before Israel started bombing Gaza.

Israel could have said that Hamas had one week to release the hostages before a massive bombing campaign of Gaza would start. This would have given at least some time to set up a process to deal with the Humanitarian crisis that would result.

Just a little effort to give the leaders in the Middle East the option of helping or staying neutral would have been great.

Instead Israel acted in anger, and almost immediately evaporated any small chance that existed of not having pretty much the entire region being completely against them.

Hamas wasn't going to commence with a land invasion of Israel. Their attack was over and had served its purpose, capturing hostages. They weren't going to be able to go back across the border and kill more Israeli's. Even if they wanted to try, a little more security in the area would have prevented that. They didn't need to bomb Gaza immediately to prevent a land invasion or another terrorist attack of that type. They bombed Gaza because they were mad, and the government wanted to seem tough after the massive failure that led to the attack being so successful for Hamas. Hamas rockets have almost never been much more than an annoyance. They didn't need to raze northern Gaza to protect against Hamas rockets.

Israel could have used this attack to build support with the many enemies of Iran in the region. Instead, they have been trying to get vengeance, and left Iran's enemies with no choice but to avoid criticizing Hamas.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

............................................

I do think that I've seen enough evidence of Israeli air attacks to know that even if they are targeting Hamas' strongholds - they have made it quite clear in action at least, that innocent citizens will suffer as a result of those who reside amongst them. Not only citizens, but anyone. That's why I say it's indiscriminate. They've killed UN employees. They've killed journalists. They've bombed areas where they've told Gazans to flee (in the south). There doesn't seem to be restraint. They know what they're doing - even cutting off aid, water, power, internet etc.

I don't know the answer in how Israel should respond. I know that thousands of children are being blown to pieces and thousands more will have long-term negative effects from what Israel is doing and will continue to do. And they are pretty clearly war crimes.

Hamas lives and works among the people for this very reason. They believe that surrounding themselves with civilians will either deter an enemy from attacking them or if they do attack people like you will say their enemy is committing war crimes. Hamas purposely sets itself up this way.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

..................................

Hamas wasn't going to commence with a land invasion of Israel. Their attack was over and had served its purpose, capturing hostages. They weren't going to be able to go back across the border and kill more Israeli's. Even if they wanted to try, a little more security in the area would have prevented that. They didn't need to bomb Gaza immediately to prevent a land invasion or another terrorist attack of that type. They bombed Gaza because they were mad, and the government wanted to seem tough after the massive failure that led to the attack being so successful for Hamas. Hamas rockets have almost never been much more than an annoyance. They didn't need to raze northern Gaza to protect against Hamas rockets.

.........................................................

So if you're attacked, and the enemy withdraws and says "sorry 'bout that" but we won't attack you again, you shouldn't strike back?

 

[samiam5211]

So if you're attacked, and the enemy withdraws and says "sorry 'bout that" but we won't attack you again, you shouldn't strike back?

You clearly didn't read my post if you think I said Israel shouldn't have struck back.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

You clearly didn't read my post if you think I said Israel shouldn't have struck back.

I see, Israel could strike back as long as they did it the way YOU wanted.

 

[samiam5211]

I see, Israel could strike back as long as they did it the way YOU wanted.

You are being hysterical.

People are asking what us complainers think Israel should have done. I provided what I think they should have done.

I don't think Israel has made good choices since 10/7. I guess that makes me a Hamas supporter.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

on 10/8 Israel should have reached out to the US to ask them to start putting pressure on some countries to start condemning the attack and blaming Iran for supporting Hamas.

Saudi Arabia would have gladly participated in this before Israel started bombing Gaza.

Israel could have said that Hamas had one week to release the hostages before a massive bombing campaign of Gaza would start. This would have given at least some time to set up a process to deal with the Humanitarian crisis that would result.

Just a little effort to give the leaders in the Middle East the option of helping or staying neutral would have been great.

Instead Israel acted in anger, and almost immediately evaporated any small chance that existed of not having pretty much the entire region being completely against them.

Hamas wasn't going to commence with a land invasion of Israel. Their attack was over and had served its purpose, capturing hostages. They weren't going to be able to go back across the border and kill more Israeli's. Even if they wanted to try, a little more security in the area would have prevented that. They didn't need to bomb Gaza immediately to prevent a land invasion or another terrorist attack of that type. They bombed Gaza because they were mad, and the government wanted to seem tough after the massive failure that led to the attack being so successful for Hamas. Hamas rockets have almost never been much more than an annoyance. They didn't need to raze northern Gaza to protect against Hamas rockets.

Israel could have used this attack to build support with the many enemies of Iran in the region. Instead, they have been trying to get vengeance, and left Iran's enemies with no choice but to avoid criticizing Hamas.

I must admit I was a bit hasty in my response. Truly sorry about that. I get your points.