Israel vs Hamas (1 Viewer)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[MT15]

Most certainly this is the moral justification for restraint. There is also a strategic argument. The US is trying to contain this conflict. What the hospital incident showed is that unjust killing will incite regional instability. We are helping Israel and ourselves by asking for restraint. We saw that there were mass protests and the King of Jordan had to cancel a meeting with Biden. This is volatile, and, in addition to the moral aspect, we cannot allow israel free rein. I don't want war with Iran. I don't want chaos in the middle east and other arab nations forced into a war.

Nobody want this.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I think what he's trying to say is that the solution to this situation Israel and the Palestinians are in is not to commit more atrocities. A genocide of the Palestinian people, regardless of what proceeded it, would be an atrocity.

I just think Israel has to find another way that doesn't add another atrocity, beyond what it already is.

Israel isn't going to commit genocide.

This kind of war, in a densely populated area, against a foe that hides within its population, is going to look ugly. Civilians are going to die. We have a Marine General over there advising the IDF because he fought in Fallujah. I don't believe for 1 second that the IDF is killing civilians just to kill civilians. I'm concerned about the death toll in Gaza as much as anyone else, but this is an unfortunate fact of life in this kind of war. I hate it, but I understand it.

 

[coldseat]

Israel isn't going to commit genocide.

This kind of war, in a densely populated area, against a foe that hides within its population, is going to look ugly. Civilians are going to die. We have a Marine General over there advising the IDF because he fought in Fallujah. I don't believe for 1 second that the IDF is killing civilians just to kill civilians. I'm concerned about the death toll in Gaza as much as anyone else, but this is an unfortunate fact of life in this kind of war. I hate it, but I understand it.

I hope that you are right. I just fear the worst.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I hope that you are right. I just fear the worst.

It scares the hell out of me too.

 

[Heathen]

Anyone else done with Biden? Man..this conflict has brought out the

Israel isn't going to commit genocide.

This kind of war, in a densely populated area, against a foe that hides within its population, is going to look ugly. Civilians are going to die. We have a Marine General over there advising the IDF because he fought in Fallujah. I don't believe for 1 second that the IDF is killing civilians just to kill civilians. I'm concerned about the death toll in Gaza as much as anyone else, but this is an unfortunate fact of life in this kind of war. I hate it, but I understand it.

Yeah, maybe they aren't doing it just to do it...but they're doing it and thousands of innocent people, including around 2000 kids (just accounted for) are collateral. So they're doing it and saying 'it's just the price of war'.

How incredibly dangerous that statement can be.

I respect the fact that Israel should defend their people against Hamas - and wish this all would stop. But hey, we all know it won't.

For the US to be against a cease fire in the UN's violence against civilians resolution is a clear indication of their prerogative. Biden calling himself a zionist and saying he doesn't believe the death tolls out of Gaza (even if you don't...have some tact / respect - my god..)...

Biden's lost my vote, personally.

 

[Heathen]

The hospital event you're referencing wasn't an Israeli attack. That was apparently an accident caused by a missile that was either misfired or shot down and caused the explosion on the ground.

There's plenty of other examples you can reference.

Regardless, she's not wrong. The responsibility for where we're at lies squarely with Hamas.

It certainly can be debated whether Israel's response is too heavy handed, but they certainly did have to respond harshly a terrorist group openly declaring war on them.

The fact that so many went to one 'side' so quickly when evidence is still unfolding to this day is something we all should think about. So many were so sure..

In the US at least, it's typical to believe media that has a western agenda as it saturates our feeds. Not that all of it is wrong, of course. Just that we should be careful considering what narrative surrounds us to fact check.

Maybe the timing of the conflict was directly related to Hamas, of course. But Israel's treatment of Palestinians is a massive part of why Hamas even exists.

With that said, absolutely...Hamas is a murderous group of individuals and I wish their wrath on no innocent life.

 

[brandon]

Then why are you bringing all of that up? We all know none of this is in a vacuum. And are aware of the mistakes and wrongs Israel has made. We don't need qualifiers when talking about what Hamas did.

I actually disagree that this incident shouldn’t be viewed in a vacuum.

There has been tentative stability in the region for quite some time. A few rockets get lobbed into Israel and the iron dome generally stops them. Settlements are disputed. Mosque/temple scuffles happen.

But it’s generally been about as peaceful in the area as it’s been for decades.

This attack by Hamas was not provoked from anything out of the ordinary from Israel. It was a surprise because there was no gradual buildup in the open. There was no increase in civil unrest more than usual. It was abjectly disproportional to anything Israel was currently doing.

It is a vacuum. Any response from Israel can only be viewed in response to the attack.

 

[MT15]

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Anyone else done with Biden? Man..this conflict has brought out the


Yeah, maybe they aren't doing it just to do it...but they're doing it and thousands of innocent people, including around 2000 kids (just accounted for) are collateral. So they're doing it and saying 'it's just the price of war'.

How incredibly dangerous that statement can be.

I respect the fact that Israel should defend their people against Hamas - and wish this all would stop. But hey, we all know it won't.

For the US to be against a cease fire in the UN's violence against civilians resolution is a clear indication of their prerogative. Biden calling himself a zionist and saying he doesn't believe the death tolls out of Gaza (even if you don't...have some tact / respect - my god..)...

Biden's lost my vote, personally.

Well, it's the price of this kind of war, against this kind of enemy, in a place like Gaza. It isn't the price of all wars.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Anyone else done with Biden? Man..this conflict has brought out the

Yeah, maybe they aren't doing it just to do it...but they're doing it and thousands of innocent people, including around 2000 kids (just accounted for) are collateral. So they're doing it and saying 'it's just the price of war'.

How incredibly dangerous that statement can be.

I respect the fact that Israel should defend their people against Hamas - and wish this all would stop. But hey, we all know it won't.

For the US to be against a cease fire in the UN's violence against civilians resolution is a clear indication of their prerogative. Biden calling himself a zionist and saying he doesn't believe the death tolls out of Gaza (even if you don't...have some tact / respect - my god..)...

Biden's lost my vote, personally.

Biden specifically said "I have no notions that Palestinians are telling the truth about how many people are killed." Biden equated all Palestinians with Hamas terrorists. That's unforgivable and unacceptable to me. So much for Biden and his respect and empathy for all people.

The reaction toward this tragedy and the mindset toward this tragedy from the majority of my fellow Americans leaves me believing that there's nothing I can do to save our society and the great American experiment in democracy from the death spiral that it is in.

I won't vote for Trump in the upcoming election, but I'm not going to vote for Biden again as a vote against Trump. And I'm not going to vote for any of the other charlatans that might make it on the ballot.

Our society, the entire species actually, is suffering from mass insanity and severe emotional dysfunction, because the vast majority of the people in the world are suffering from individual insanity or severe emotional dysfunction. Very little that is happening in the US and throughout the world is coming from a place of reason or good faith intentions. It's not just the emperor that's naked and too few people are able or willing to recognize that fact.

It's depressingly clear to me now that humanity cannot be saved from itself. Up until a few months ago, I believed that it could be, but objective reality says otherwise. More and more people are buying into and supporting the killing of more and more people under the misguided and mistaken belief that we can kill our way to a better world.

We will eventually and inevitably kill off our entire species. Poetically and prophetically, it will finally be a better world then.

 

[DaveXA]

I actually disagree that this incident shouldn’t be viewed in a vacuum.

There has been tentative stability in the region for quite some time. A few rockets get lobbed into Israel and the iron dome generally stops them. Settlements are disputed. Mosque/temple scuffles happen.

But it’s generally been about as peaceful in the area as it’s been for decades.

This attack by Hamas was not provoked from anything out of the ordinary from Israel. It was a surprise because there was no gradual buildup in the open. There was no increase in civil unrest more than usual. It was abjectly disproportional to anything Israel was currently doing.

It is a vacuum. Any response from Israel can only be viewed in response to the attack.

That makes some sense. Actually, if anything, all of that was leading to talks and possible agreements and Hamas didn't want any of that happening. Certainly.

 

[MT15]

 

[DaveXA]

Biden specifically said "I have no notions that Palestinians are telling the truth about how many people are killed." Biden equated all Palestinians with Hamas terrorists. That's unforgivable and unacceptable to me. So much for Biden and his respect and empathy for all people.

I wonder if he said Palestinians when he intended to say Hamas? What he actually said was just terrible optics if you're trying to keep dialogue open with Palestinians. Last thing we want to do is equate them with Hamas.

The reaction toward this tragedy and the mindset toward this tragedy from the majority of my fellow Americans leaves me believing that there's nothing I can do to save our society and the great American experiment in democracy from the death spiral that it is in.

The country has a lot of issues. That's been the case for a while now. We elected Trump in 2016, damn near reelected him, and looks like he's gonna get nominated yet again. Yeah, our country is forked.

I won't vote for Trump in the upcoming election, but I'm not going to vote for Biden again as a vote against Trump. And I'm not going to vote for any of the other charlatans that might make it on the ballot.

I hear you, but that's a mistake imo. I really think Biden misspoke, not realizing what he said would mean. He'll have to retract that statement though. Not voting makes it more likely Trump gets elected. I just can't get on board with that.

Our society, the entire species actually, is suffering from mass insanity and severe emotional dysfunction, because the vast majority of the people in the world are suffering from individual insanity or severe emotional dysfunction. Very little that is happening in the US and throughout the world is coming from a place of reason or good faith intentions. It's not just the emperor that's naked and too few people are able or willing to recognize that fact.

I hear ya.

It's depressingly clear to me now that humanity cannot be saved from itself. Up until a few months ago, I believed that it could be, but objective reality says otherwise. More and more people are buying into and supporting the killing of more and more people under the misguided and mistaken belief that we can kill our way to a better world.

i don't think people actually buy that. I think people, whether right or wrong, are rationalizing it by saying, well, its happening because of Hamas. And Hamas is putting people in harm's way intentionally. They view their citizens as the necessary martyrs they need to gain support among Palestinians. And it's working. Israel is falling into that trap. Whether it works fully or not, we dont know yet.

We will eventually and inevitably kill off our entire species. Poetically and prophetically, it will finally be a better world then.

We may, but I'm not quite that pessimistic yet. But I totally understand the feeling.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

...
This attack by Hamas was not provoked from anything out of the ordinary from Israel. It was a surprise because there was no gradual buildup in the open. There was no increase in civil unrest more than usual. It was abjectly disproportional to anything Israel was currently doing.

It is a vacuum. Any response from Israel can only be viewed in response to the attack.

But this didn't happen in a vacuum, it was a heinous reaction to Israel's recent actions in the West Bank.

Israel’s far-right government on Monday approved plans to build over 5,000 new homes in Jewish settlements in the West Bank, Israeli media said, a move that threatened to worsen increasingly strained relations with the United States.

The decision defied growing U.S. criticism of Israel’s settlement policies. It also raised tensions with the Palestinians at a time of rising violence in the occupied territory.

Multiple Israeli media outlets said the Defense Ministry planning committee that oversees settlement construction approved some 5,700 new settlement homes. The units are at various stages of planning, and it was not immediately clear when construction would begin. COGAT, the defense body in charge of the planning committee, did not respond to requests for comment.

The international community, along with the Palestinians, considers settlement construction illegal or illegitimate and an obstacle to peace. Over 700,000 Israelis now live in the occupied West Bank and east Jerusalem — territories captured by Israel in 1967 and sought by the Palestinians for a future state.

Israel OK's plans for thousands of new settlement homes, defying White House calls for restraint

Israeli media say the country's far-right government has approved plans to build over 5,000 of new homes in Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank.

apnews.com

and...


To say that there was relatively peace in the region prior to the terrorist attack by Hamas on 7 Oct is to ignore the actions leading up to that terrorist attack.

 

[UriUT]

Biden specifically said "I have no notions that Palestinians are telling the truth about how many people are killed." Biden equated all Palestinians with Hamas terrorists. That's unforgivable and unacceptable to me. So much for Biden and his respect and empathy for all people.

The reaction toward this tragedy and the mindset toward this tragedy from the majority of my fellow Americans leaves me believing that there's nothing I can do to save our society and the great American experiment in democracy from the death spiral that it is in.

I won't vote for Trump in the upcoming election, but I'm not going to vote for Biden again as a vote against Trump. And I'm not going to vote for any of the other charlatans that might make it on the ballot.

Our society, the entire species actually, is suffering from mass insanity and severe emotional dysfunction, because the vast majority of the people in the world are suffering from individual insanity or severe emotional dysfunction. Very little that is happening in the US and throughout the world is coming from a place of reason or good faith intentions. It's not just the emperor that's naked and too few people are able or willing to recognize that fact.

It's depressingly clear to me now that humanity cannot be saved from itself. Up until a few months ago, I believed that it could be, but objective reality says otherwise. More and more people are buying into and supporting the killing of more and more people under the misguided and mistaken belief that we can kill our way to a better world.

We will eventually and inevitably kill off our entire species. Poetically and prophetically, it will finally be a better world then.

This is a bit of an over reaction. Biden is threading needles here.

 

[UriUT]

I actually disagree that this incident shouldn’t be viewed in a vacuum.

There has been tentative stability in the region for quite some time. A few rockets get lobbed into Israel and the iron dome generally stops them. Settlements are disputed. Mosque/temple scuffles happen.

But it’s generally been about as peaceful in the area as it’s been for decades.

This attack by Hamas was not provoked from anything out of the ordinary from Israel. It was a surprise because there was no gradual buildup in the open. There was no increase in civil unrest more than usual. It was abjectly disproportional to anything Israel was currently doing.

It is a vacuum. Any response from Israel can only be viewed in response to the attack.

You should consider this comment the next time a church full of black folks get gunned down. How the civil rights movement was unprovoked. I mean, at least black folks weren't walled up and caged right? Ask for permission to leave so that they can make a living? Or have military convoys raid their neighborhoods and shoot willy nilly into unarmed crowds. Walk a few blocks and a soldier asks for your papers. And have those hooded people come to their neighborhood and beat the crap out of them. But in the West Bank, they don't wear hoods as the IDF is right there protecting those people. If they kill a black person...er Palestinian, it's ok. They'll get arrested and be confined....in their house! Or have their land slowly taken from them?

Nah, all unprovoked...I mean...the LA riots after the Rodney King beating...was all in a vacuum...those rioters were just crazy right?

Because, in order to cleanse the palate of any of that nasty guilt of innocent people dying, it's easier to just have one side wear white.

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1206720312/biden-israel-palestinians-presidents-mideast-peace

Trump's Abraham Accords normalized relations between Israel and some Arab countries​

In 2020, then-President Trump announced "the dawn of a new Middle East" at a White House signing ceremony for the latest peace effort, the Abraham Accords, normalizing relations between Israel and several Arab states — the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and later, Morocco and Sudan.

Altman calls the Abraham Accords "probably a net negative" because they ignored the most fundamental issue: the Palestinians.

I'll repeat this again. Unlike the Ukrainian war, this Israeli-Palestinian has serious ambiguity. Hamas are terrorists, and the Israeli government and their policy aren't pristine. You cannot plug your ears and cover your eyes to hide that the Palestinians have deep resentment to it. And to try and white wash that is BS. It perpetuates this cycle of violence. Nothing is done to understand the issue. it's easier to say it's unprovoked every time the Palestinians lash out, either from the PLO, Hamas, or whatever spawns from the Israeli oppression.

And it angers me every time I have to repeat this. I have zero skin in this conflict. I have zero attachment to the Palestinians or the Israelis. I empathize that Palestinians are oppressed. I empathize that Israeli should have a right to live in peace. I bring all the Israeli abuse as a counter-balance to this narrative that Israel did no wrong. And this damn issue is dead weight for us. It's quite revealing how the moral compass spins here.

Jake Sullivan below clearly expresses that his administration miscalculated the Palestinian resentment. That ignoring the Palestinian needs and bulldoze towards mid-east normalization was misguided...because the Hamas attack was not done in a vacuum.

The Sources of American Power

U.S. National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan on a foreign policy for a changed world.

www.foreignaffairs.com

The original version of this article emphasized that this progress was fragile and that perennial challenges remained, including tensions between Israel and Palestinians and the threat posed by Iran. The October 7 attacks have cast a shadow over the entire regional picture, the repercussions of which are still playing out, including the risk of significant regional escalation. But the disciplined approach in the Middle East that we have pursued remains core to our posture and planning as we deal with this crisis.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Leading up to the 2020 election, Arab American organizers in south-east Michigan like Terry Ahwal worked to convince their community to go to the polls for Joe Biden. The message was simple: Donald Trump’s Islamophobic rhetoric and policies such as the Middle East travel ban were a threat to Arab Americans. Voters mobilized to help push Biden over the top in this critical swing state.

Several years on, amid Biden’s full-throated support of Israel in the current war and an unfolding humanitarian crisis that has claimed thousand of lives in Gaza, Ahwal feels deep regret: “I have to say “I’m sorry’ to my friends.’”

Ahwal is among hundreds of thousands of Arab Americans in Michigan, many of whom are watching with horror as the US supports Israel as it carries out its bombing campaign. After the community backed Biden by a wide margin in November 2020, the feeling goes “beyond betrayal”, about a dozen Arab Americans in Michigan said.

“This is a complete loss of humanity, it is the active support of a genocide, and I don’t think it gets any worse than that,” said Huwaida Arraf, a Palestinian American activist and attorney. “I’ve gotten a few comments, ‘Well, the GOP is going to be worse,’ and my question is: ‘How can you get worse than active support of a genocide?’”

Polls show that Americans have generally been supportive of Israel and its response to the 7 October attack, though Morning Consult datareleased this week also shows the number of people who sympathize equally with Israelis and Palestinians is on the rise. That poll also showed support for Biden’s response is growing.

But Arab Americans who spoke with the Guardian said they did not know of anyone in their community who would vote for Biden in 2024. That could have profound consequences in a state in which Trump won by 10,000 votes in 2016, and a tight rematch is taking shape.

Still, the Biden administration has remained steadfastly supportive of Israel, proposing $14bn in aid; providing weapons such as missiles and armored personnel carriers; refusing calls for a ceasefire; and deploying US troops to the region. A Data for Progress poll released Thursday found 66% of Americans think the US should call for a ceasefire.

The use of Arab American tax dollars to bomb Gaza is generating “widespread horror and fury”, Arraf said.

Though Biden has called on Israel to show restraint and touted a deal he struck to allow trucks carrying aid to enter Gaza, Arab Americans who spoke with the Guardian view the gestures as pittances. They see the US’s support as ham-fisted and “shocking” in the context of the last presidential election.

“Even our conservative members voted for Biden, only to get a guy who dehumanizes us, who is sending the weapons to Israel, and the only purpose of these weapons is to use Palestinian as target practice,” Ahwal said. “I don’t know anybody who would vote for him.”

That sentiment was echoed by Muslim and Arab Americans elsewhere in the country. Zohran Mamdani, a New York assemblymember, called Biden’s response to the crisis “disgusting” and warned that the president is underestimating the Arab American voting bloc.

“I have had many constituents of mine, as well as Muslims from beyond my district, reach out to me and ask me: ‘How am I supposed to vote for Joe Biden?’ And I don’t know what I’m supposed to tell them,” he said.

A number of people also expressed fears that the Biden administration’s rhetoric and positions are fanning the flames of Islamophobia in the US and putting their communities in danger. People who are publicly critical of Israel or supportive of Palestine have lost jobs and faced harassment in recent weeks. Muslim and Arab American politicians are receiving death threats and the level of vitriol is above what was experienced in the wake of 9/11, said Abraham Aiyash, a Muslim American state representative in Michigan.

The president’s comparison of Hamas’s attacks to “15 9/11s”, Aiyash said, “enhances Islamophobia”, referencing the recent murder in Illinois of a six-year-old Palestinian American boy in an alleged hate crime.…….

‘How can I vote for Biden?’ Arab Americans in Michigan ‘betrayed’ by Israel support

Arab American voters proved crucial to president’s 2020 win of the swing state, but many say they cannot back him again

www.theguardian.com

 

[MT15]

You should consider this comment the next time a church full of black folks get gunned down. How the civil rights movement was unprovoked. I mean, at least black folks weren't walled up and caged right? Ask for permission to leave so that they can make a living? Or have military convoys raid their neighborhoods and shoot willy nilly into unarmed crowds. Walk a few blocks and a soldier asks for your papers. And have those hooded people come to their neighborhood and beat the crap out of them. But in the West Bank, they don't wear hoods as the IDF is right there protecting those people. If they kill a black person...er Palestinian, it's ok. They'll get arrested and be confined....in their house! Or have their land slowly taken from them?

Nah, all unprovoked...I mean...the LA riots after the Rodney King beating...was all in a vacuum...those rioters were just crazy right?

Because, in order to cleanse the palate of any of that nasty guilt of innocent people dying, it's easier to just have one side wear white.

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1206720312/biden-israel-palestinians-presidents-mideast-peace

I'll repeat this again. Unlike the Ukrainian war, this Israeli-Palestinian has serious ambiguity. Hamas are terrorists, and the Israeli government and their policy aren't pristine. You cannot plug your ears and cover your eyes to hide that the Palestinians have deep resentment to it. And to try and white wash that is BS. It perpetuates this cycle of violence. Nothing is done to understand the issue. it's easier to say it's unprovoked every time the Palestinians lash out, either from the PLO, Hamas, or whatever spawns from the Israeli oppression.

And it angers me every time I have to repeat this. I have zero skin in this conflict. I have zero attachment to the Palestinians or the Israelis. I empathize that Palestinians are oppressed. I empathize that Israeli should have a right to live in peace. I bring all the Israeli abuse as a counter-balance to this narrative that Israel did no wrong. And this damn issue is dead weight for us. It's quite revealing how the moral compass spins here.

Jake Sullivan below clearly expresses that his administration miscalculated the Palestinian resentment. That ignoring the Palestinian needs and bulldoze towards mid-east normalization was misguided...because the Hamas attack was not done in a vacuum.

The Sources of American Power

U.S. National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan on a foreign policy for a changed world.

www.foreignaffairs.com

So what I see here is a litany of grievances against Israel, and ignoring every atrocity committed by anyone else. It’s correct to recognize Palestinian resentment, and Israel has taken a turn to the right. Sadly. But, your statement that you bring all this up as a counterbalance to this “narrative that Israel did no wrong” is a bit confusing because I don’t recall anybody making that assertion. The moralizing is a bit grating as well.

There is a definite narrative being pushed - not by you, this is a general observation now - and I am seeing some very troubling words and actions. Young people in particular are excusing Hamas, even lionizing them as freedom fighters. I also saw recently that TikTok, for one, is actively pushing anti-Israeli, pro-Hamas sentiment through its algorithms. We need to remember that this particular social platform is controlled by one of our adversaries. Our adversaries are celebrating every time we get more divided, more fractious as a country because it confirms their narrative that democracy is a bad system that doesn’t work.

Also, to address the idea that a couple of people here have put forth, that they will not vote for Biden now because he is supporting Israel - this is privilege talking. These posters will be fine if Trump is re-elected. POC, LBGTQ, women will definitely not be fine. Keep in mind, Biden is fulfilling our obligations, put in place long before he became president, to support an ally. He’s doing everything he can possibly do to keep this from becoming a full-blown regional war. If we elect Trump, nothing improves. At all.