Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[UriUT]

The whole situation is just so convoluted.

I don’t think so. The far right in Israel doesn’t want a two state solution. Netanyahu have made this point. In order to achieve this, he uses the divide and conquer strategy. The pla now the pa is generally regarded as a reasonable group that can govern and negotiate in good faith. This is more dangerous than Hamas towards the two state solution as the international community will only see Hamas as a terrorist organization. thus, Israel’s extreme measures can be justified. And from their interviews, they lulled Netanyahu into a false sense of security and cooperated with the Israeli idf.

Netanyahu made all efforts to undermine the pa’s authority and it worked. The pa tried to enforce security and stability at Israel’s behest. Unfortunately, West Bank settler’s action, given free reign to grab lands and violently attack Palestinian locals (both Christian and Muslim) support Hamas’ message that the pa is ineffective and may be collaborating with Israel. Settler violence, sometimes supported by idf, drove reactions from Palestinians. Idf that once patrolled the Gaza borders were redeployed to the West Bank and continued violent raids as those that I linked earlier. Innocent deaths flamed the violence, and the end result: the Palestinian authority loses credibility.
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[DaveXA]

I agree and think the disagreements are a result of miscommunication because the language we use doesn't mean the exact same things to each of us, so we misunderstand what people are trying to communicate to us.

Yeah, to add, we're not all in the same place in life. But that's sorta why I do this. To hash out what I think about things like this. I'm a work in progress.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Yes, it wasn't worded ideally, I suppose. I certainly lament civilian deaths on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides. It's horrible. But my issue is that no one who is asking for restraint is also able to offer a viable solution for how Israel should respond.

If they don't do anything, they're going to get attacked again. Hamas does not believe in the right of Israel to exist. So doing nothing is not an option.

A "proportional" response leaves you with the same problem. Hamas does not believe in the right of Israel to exist, so leaving any Hamas leaders or fighters standing means it's just a matter of time before you're attacked again.

Total destruction of Hamas is the only solution that ensures (maybe?) that Hamas fighters don't attack again in the future. But to do this, because of Hamas' intentional integration of civilian and military infrastructure, civilian deaths are certain.

They have made some efforts to ensure civilians get the chance to leave. They haven't yet started the ground incursion, showing significant restraint. But at some point, reality is going to set in.

There is no viable alternative for Israel. I hate it. But it's the truth.

America had to make this choice before during WWII. It's a terrible choice. But sometimes it's the only choice.

The total destruction of Hamas is not possible. Israel could kill every person in Gaza and Hamas would still not be destroyed. In fact, it would lead to Hamas's ranks growing, and making them stronger and more deadly.

The best way to weaken Hamas is to improve the treatment and living conditions of Palestinians. The best thing for Israeli security is to give the Palestinians a chance to govern and take care of themselves.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Yeah, to add, we're not all in the same place in life. But that's sorta why I do this. To hash out what I think about things like this. I'm a work in progress.

I'm a mess striving to be a work in progress, so you're doing better than me.

 

[UriUT]

Yes, it wasn't worded ideally, I suppose. I certainly lament civilian deaths on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides. It's horrible. But my issue is that no one who is asking for restraint is also able to offer a viable solution for how Israel should respond.

If they don't do anything, they're going to get attacked again. Hamas does not believe in the right of Israel to exist. So doing nothing is not an option.

A "proportional" response leaves you with the same problem. Hamas does not believe in the right of Israel to exist, so leaving any Hamas leaders or fighters standing means it's just a matter of time before you're attacked again.

Total destruction of Hamas is the only solution that ensures (maybe?) that Hamas fighters don't attack again in the future. But to do this, because of Hamas' intentional integration of civilian and military infrastructure, civilian deaths are certain.

They have made some efforts to ensure civilians get the chance to leave. They haven't yet started the ground incursion, showing significant restraint. But at some point, reality is going to set in.

There is no viable alternative for Israel. I hate it. But it's the truth.

America had to make this choice before during WWII. It's a terrible choice. But sometimes it's the only choice.

My point earlier…nothing the Israeli does in this blood lust solves the problem. It may actually exacerbate the situation. Hamas will not be destroyed by killing their leaders or some soldiers. They will continue to attack Israel because they are desperate that they were left behind with mid east normalization. They are caged and slowly killed off by Israel’s draconian policy/reaction. All the us can do is ask for restraint, minimize casualty as that’s in our interest as well, and keep this violence contained.

 

[DaveXA]

The total destruction of Hamas is not possible. Israel could kill every person in Gaza and Hamas would still not be destroyed. In fact, it would lead to Hamas's ranks growing, and making them stronger and more deadly.

The best way to weaken Hamas is to improve the treatment and living conditions of Palestinians. It's to give the Palestinians a chance to take govern and take care of themselves.

I tend to agree. Israel's best bet is to have NATO spearhead the effort to deal with Gaza and everyone can pitch in and collaborate in putting pressure on Palestinians to dump Hamas and govern themselves, and they can also all pitch in on rebuilding Gaza.

That said, Israel isn't very trusting of those alliances and doesn't like being handcuffed, which is how they might view it.

 

[brandon]

The best way to weaken Hamas is to improve the treatment and living conditions of Palestinians. The best thing for Israeli security is to give the Palestinians a chance to govern and take care of themselves.

Sure. Great long-term solution. But for right now, the Israeli government has a duty to protect its citizens who were attacked, and has a right to defend itself. What you've suggested does nothing to address the immediate problem.

My point earlier…nothing the Israeli does in this blood lust solves the problem. It may actually exacerbate the situation. Hamas will not be destroyed by killing their leaders or some soldiers. They will continue to attack Israel because they are desperate that they were left behind with mid east normalization. They are caged and slowly killed off by Israel’s draconian policy/reaction. All the us can do is ask for restraint, minimize casualty as that’s in our interest as well, and keep this violence contained.

Again, this is not an answer for what Israel should do right now. If they don't attack, they will be attacked.

I tend to agree. Israel's best bet is to have NATO spearhead the effort to deal with Gaza and everyone can pitch in and collaborate in putting pressure on Palestinians to dump Hamas and govern themselves, and they can also all pitch in on rebuilding Gaza.

That said, Israel isn't very trusting of those alliances and doesn't like being handcuffed, which is how they might view it.

Again, this is not an answer for what Israel should do right now. If they don't attack, they will be attacked.

 

[UriUT]

Sure. Great long-term solution. But for right now, the Israeli government has a duty to protect its citizens who were attacked, and has a right to defend itself. What you've suggested does nothing to address the immediate problem.


Again, this is not an answer for what Israel should do right now. If they don't attack, they will be attacked.


Again, this is not an answer for what Israel should do right now. If they don't attack, they will be attacked.

That’s the point. There isn’t a good answer. You are not killing off an idea in the short term. Attacks will happen. There is only minimizing the damage that has already happened. Kill too many and we have another hospital blow up calling for all out war. Do too little and the bloodlust in Israel isnt satisfied. We do what we can now and achieve the goals I’ve outlined.

 

[DaveXA]

Sure. Great long-term solution. But for right now, the Israeli government has a duty to protect its citizens who were attacked, and has a right to defend itself. What you've suggested does nothing to address the immediate problem.


Again, this is not an answer for what Israel should do right now. If they don't attack, they will be attacked.


Again, this is not an answer for what Israel should do right now. If they don't attack, they will be attacked.

Maybe, but I think they can defend themselves well enough at this point. I mean, they have the Iron Dome as well as assets for themselves and from other allies to defend themselves while they work with NATO to resolve the issue with the trapped Palestinians and provide much needed necessities while at the same time coming up with a plan to do a joint operation to secure Gaza and clear out as many Hamas operatives as they can and hopefully rescue at least some of the hostages. It's a risky, complicated approach, but it can be done in a way that doesn't kill so many innocent people and removes Hamas from power.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Sure. Great long-term solution. But for right now, the Israeli government has a duty to protect its citizens who were attacked, and has a right to defend itself. What you've suggested does nothing to address the immediate problem.


Again, this is not an answer for what Israel should do right now. If they don't attack, they will be attacked.


Again, this is not an answer for what Israel should do right now. If they don't attack, they will be attacked.

Hamas attack was successful, because of the element of surprise. That element no longer exists. Hamas does not have the ability to mount a significant attack into Israel that Israel can not defend against at the border. Israel does not need to invade Gaza to defend itself against Hamas right now or in the near future.

The US and Europe would not be trying to discourage Israel from a invasion of Gaza or to decrease their bombing and shelling of Gaza if Israel had to do that to defend itself.

Hamas lured Israeli leadership into a false sense of security. That's the only reason they were able to do what they did. That advantage no longer exists. If Israel invades Gaza, the conflict will probably widen and escalate which will put Israel more at risk from multiple adversaries that are more of a threat than Hamas.

It's not about Israel not attacking at all. It's about Israel being much more selective and precise in the targeting and the execution of their attacks.

 

[brandon]

That’s the point. There isn’t a good answer. You are not killing off an idea in the short term. Attacks will happen. There is only minimizing the damage that has already happened. Kill too many and we have another hospital blow up calling for all out war. Do too little and the bloodlust in Israel isnt satisfied. We do what we can now and achieve the goals I’ve outlined.

No, that isn't the point. The point is that if Israel does too little, they will be attacked again by Hamas. This has fork all to do with bloodlust for most Israelis.

Maybe, but I think they can defend themselves well enough at this point. I mean, they have the Iron Dome as well as assets for themselves and from other allies to defend themselves while they work with NATO to resolve the issue with the trapped Palestinians and provide much needed necessities while at the same time coming up with a plan to do a joint operation to secure Gaza and clear out as many Hamas operatives as they can and hopefully rescue at least some of the hostages. It's a risky, complicated approach, but it can be done in a way that doesn't kill so many innocent people and removes Hamas from power.

They had the Iron Dome a week ago.

They had Mossad a week ago.

They had allies a week ago.

None of those things mattered.

 

[DaveXA]

No, that isn't the point. The point is that if Israel does too little, they will be attacked again by Hamas. This has fork all to do with bloodlust for most Israelis.


They had the Iron Dome a week ago.

They had Mossad a week ago.

They had allies a week ago.

None of those things mattered.

Yes, and what Hamas had then, they no longer have now, which is the element of surprise. Israel's defensive posture is miles different now than it was on Oct. 7.

 

[UriUT]

No, that isn't the point. The point is that if Israel does too little, they will be attacked again by Hamas. This has fork all to do with bloodlust for most Israelis.


They had the Iron Dome a week ago.

They had Mossad a week ago.

They had allies a week ago.

None of those things mattered.

you tell me what this accomplishes in the short term? Kill 10s of thousands for a few hundred Hamas. Israel cannot occupy the entirety of the Gaza and their 2.5 million people. That is why they retreated in 2005(?). So as per their declared goals, they will go into Gaza and destroy the networks and retreat. How do you think they will stop the rocket attacks and occasional incursion after that? And btw, Israel does incursions regularly and killed innocent lives.

The diplomacy at play is to ride out this bloodlust as its in our interest. In the short term.

 

[UriUT]

Again, do you prefer a slow boiling frog or one that is stomped.

 

[DaveXA]

you tell me what this accomplishes in the short term? Kill 10s of thousands for a few hundred Hamas. Israel cannot occupy the entirety of the Gaza and their 2.5 million people. That is why they retreated in 2005(?). So as per their declared goals, they will go into Gaza and destroy the networks and retreat. How do you think they will stop the rocket attacks and occasional incursion after that? And btw, Israel does incursions regularly and killed innocent lives.

The diplomacy at play is to ride out this bloodlust as its in our interest. In the short term.

It's my understanding that they're not dealing with a few hundred Hamas operatives. I've seen reports of up to 40,000 supporting the Hamas network of fighters. That's substantial and would be very difficult to root out.

 

[UriUT]

It's my understanding that they're not dealing with a few hundred Hamas operatives. I've seen reports of up to 40,000 supporting the Hamas network of fighters. That's substantial and would be very difficult to root out.

I really don’t know the numbers, but the point still stands. Israel may not have an easy go at the ground invasion and it really doesn’t solve the core issue of this conflict.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I really don’t know the numbers, but the point still stands. Israel may not have an easy go at the ground invasion and it really doesn’t solve the core issue of this conflict.

I'd say you can count on that.

 

[brandon]

The total destruction of Hamas is not possible. Israel could kill every person in Gaza and Hamas would still not be destroyed. In fact, it would lead to Hamas's ranks growing, and making them stronger and more deadly.

Straw man. No one is suggesting they kill every person in Gaza.

However, it is your suggestion that because civilians in Gaza will die with an Israeli invasion (which I certainly concede will happen), that Israel should not invade Gaza. But if they don't do that, they will continue to be attacked. Hundreds of hostages will remain as prisoners at best, or be executed at worst.

Yes, and what Hamas had then, they no longer have now, which is the element of surprise. Israel's defensive posture is miles different now than it was on Oct. 7.

Certainly. But if they can surprise Israel here, and if Al-Qaeda can surprise the US, and if ISIS can surprise Iraq, and we leave them to their own devices, then another "surprise" in the future is about the least surprising thing I can think of.

you tell me what this accomplishes in the short term? Kill 10s of thousands for a few hundred Hamas. Israel cannot occupy the entirety of the Gaza and their 2.5 million people. That is why they retreated in 2005(?). So as per their declared goals, they will go into Gaza and destroy the networks and retreat. How do you think they will stop the rocket attacks and occasional incursion after that? And btw, Israel does incursions regularly and killed innocent lives.

The diplomacy at play is to ride out this bloodlust as its in our interest. In the short term.

Diplomacy is the long-term solution. Ensuring security for the citizens of Israel is the short-term solution. You do this by "taking the fight to them," as the US has frequently demonstrated in the past.

I'd also be careful about your continued use of "bloodlust" in reference to Israelis. This isn't about bloodlust. It's about security.

Again, do you prefer a slow boiling frog or one that is stomped.

I don't think I fully understand the analogy, but as it stands, if the frog dies either way, then I don't think it matters, other than perhaps the suffering involved.

I really don’t know the numbers, but the point still stands. Israel may not have an easy go at the ground invasion and it really doesn’t solve the core issue of this conflict.

The core issue of this conflict is that Hamas attacked Israel, targeting, kidnapping, and murdering civilians.

The core issue is that while we're demanding Israel to exercise restraint, Hamas did no such thing. I'm no supporter of Netanyahu or often the Israeli government at large, but they have every right to retaliate against Hamas, just as Ukraine has every right to retaliate against Moscow. It doesn't matter that Israel is the more powerful of the two nations. They were attacked, and they get to respond.