Israel vs Hamas (4 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Israel's plan to wipe out Hamas will fail because it's not realistic. It will fail like our plan to wipe out Al Queada, the Taliban, and the Islamic State in Iraq failed.

They will kill a lot more civilian Palestinians on their road to wipe out Hamas not as collateral damage but as part of their plan to wipe out Hamas. There is little to indicate (from their official statements, their rhetoric and war posturing) that they care. I think it may very will be part of their calculations that less Palestinians overall will be better for Israel long term.

Well, you can't fight Hamas without killing civilians. And that's the way Hamas wants it. So what do you do? Let every terrorist organization that's in charge of a country, or area, do what they want because they hide amongst the civilian population?

Civilians across the world need to know that if they are ruled by a terrorist organization, they're going to pay.

 

[Dragon]

Well, you can't fight Hamas without killing civilians. And that's the way Hamas wants it. So what do you do? Let every terrorist organization that's in charge of a country, or area, do what they want because they hide amongst the civilian population?

Civilians across the world need to know that if they are ruled by a terrorist organization, they're going to pay.

So they are being victimized twice? First by being ruled by a terrorist organization and second by those who tries to remove said organization.

They can't leave Gaza because no one wants them and they cant get rid of Hamas because there has been no election for 15 years! So they should just settle for being exterminated - Women, babies and whole families ?

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

So they are being victimized twice? First by being ruled by a terrorist organization and second by those who tries to remove said organization.

They can't leave Gaza because no one wants them and they cant get rid of Hamas because there has been no election for 15 years! So they should just settle for being exterminated - Women, babies and whole families ?

Yeah, they're victims and the Israelis are the bad guys, the exterminators. Fine.

 

[MT15]

 

[DaveXA]

It's weird. There's so much legitimate footage, yet resorting to shirt like this is what they do to fan the flames more. I sorta get it, but not really.

 

[DaveXA]

Yeah, they're victims and the Israelis are the bad guys, the exterminators. Fine.

Yeah, the equivocating is just a step too far imo. I legit feel bad for Palestinians, but there are 2 million Palestinians in Gaza. They really needed to band together and overthrow Hamas. Easier said than done. It's the same problem with other totalitarian governments like in Russia, China and NK where the people don't have any chance at overthrowing their overbearing governments.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Yeah, the equivocating is just a step too far imo. I legit feel bad for Palestinians, but there are 2 million Palestinians in Gaza. They really needed to band together and overthrow Hamas. Easier said than done. It's the same problem with other totalitarian governments like in Russia, China and NK where the people don't have any chance at overthrowing their overbearing governments.

I have heard that The Palestinian Authority of the West Bank won't call for an election because their afraid Hamas would get elected. So it's not like Hamas has the control they have without some Palestinian support.

 

[MT15]

I have heard that The Palestinian Authority of the West Bank won't call for an election because their afraid Hamas would get elected. So it's not like Hamas has the control they have without some Palestinian support.

The whole situation is just so convoluted.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I'm on record posting here that I hope Israel will cut back on the shelling and use Special Forces with limited air strikes to go after Hamas. But that's not what I was posting about this time. I'm posting about Hamas' desire to force Israel into killing civilians so they, Hamas, can get people like you talking about "OUR moral limits".

Everything everyone does is their own choice.

If I put a gun to your head and tell you to kill an innocent person or die. It's your choice whether or not you choose to kill an innocent person to save your own life. It's a terribly horrible choice, but it's still your choice.

Hamas can not make Israel do anything that Israel does not choose to do. Israel's choices are solely their responsibility, no one else's. Just like the choices of the people in Hamas are their choices, no matter how many loved one's they lost due to the actions of anyone else.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Everything everyone does is their own choice.

If I put a gun to your head and tell you to kill an innocent person or die. It's your choice whether or not you choose to kill an innocent person to save your own life. It's a terribly horrible choice, but it's still your choice.

Hamas can not make Israel do anything that Israel does not choose to do. Israel's choices are solely their responsibility, no one else's. Just like the choices of the people in Hamas are their choices, no matter how many loved one's they lost due to the actions of anyone else.

Please. Hamas went into Israel and killed Jews. Of course Israel is going to respond. And of course Israel's response when going after Hamas is going to cost civilian lives. Hamas knew that. After Hamas' attack, EVERYONE knew that.

 

[DaveXA]

Everything everyone does is their own choice.

If I put a gun to your head and tell you to kill an innocent person or die. It's your choice whether or not you choose to kill an innocent person to save your own life. It's a terribly horrible choice, but it's still your choice.

Hamas can not make Israel do anything that Israel does not choose to do. Israel's choices are solely their responsibility, no one else's. Just like the choices of the people in Hamas are their choices, no matter how many loved one's they lost due to the actions of anyone else.

Ok, so I come in and ransack your home and kidnap your family. You're seriously telling me your gonna sit back and not do anything you can to get them back?

 

[LA - L.A.]

Ok, so I come in and ransack your home and kidnap your family. You're seriously telling me your gonna sit back and not do anything you can to get them back?

You completely missed the point. No matter what someone chooses to do, it's their choice and they are responsible for the consequences of their choices. If you kill an innocent person to save your life, you share in the responsibility of that innocent person being killed. You could have chosen to die and let the innocent person live, but you chose for them to die instead.

Your question is a false choice. There are a lot of options between do nothing or choose to seek revenge and take a "to hell with any innocent people that get caught in the path of my wrath" approach. You seem stuck in a black & white, zero-sum game mentality on this topic.

I would keep my emotions in check and make the most rational choices that create the best chance of achieving the most important thing which is to get my family back..

Bombing buildings full of innocent civilians is not how you get hostages back. Negotiating like the US and other countries are doing is how you get hostages back.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Obviously, getting the hostages back is important but it is not the only consideration. Taking down as many Hamas soldiers as they can is important also. Who is to say they aren't planning to hit Israel again?

 

[DaveXA]

You completely missed the point. No matter what someone chooses to do, it's their choice and they are responsible for the consequences of their choices. If you kill an innocent person to save your life, you share in the responsibility of that innocent person being killed. You could have chosen to die and let the innocent person live, but you chose for them to die instead.

Your question is a false choice. There are a lot of options between do nothing or choose to seek revenge and take a "to hell with any innocent people that get caught in the path of my wrath" approach. You seem stuck in a black & white, zero-sum game mentality on this topic.

I would keep my emotions in check and make the most rational choices that create the best chance of achieving the most important thing which is to get my family back..

Bombing buildings full of innocent civilians is not how you get hostages back. Negotiating like the US and other countries are doing is how you get hostages back.

I hear what you're saying, but I would counter that they're certainly not intentionally bombing buildings full of innocent civilians. There certainly are some people being hurt and/or killed. Hamas understood this would be an likely outcome when they carried out their attack.

I don't want innocent civilians caught in the crossfire any more than you do. But in times of war, it nearly always happens. What Hamas did was essentially a declaration of war. Most countries wouldn't react much differently if it happened to them. I mean, look how we responded to 9/11. Perhaps we set a poor example and Israel is saying, hey, if you can do it, we can too.

And to be clear, I'm no fan of Bibi. I want him out as I think he has no interest in peace. I'd easily be more supportive if Israel had a leader who would build a coalition with say NATO and work with Palestinians to push the zealots out of Gaza.

That said, that's neither here or there unfortunately. I still think Israel should be allowed to defend themselves and get the hostages back, but I think they've overdone it with the shelling and they should just go ahead and attempt to root out the militants so that Palestinians can return and rebuild.

I have no doubt the US will want to help rebuild Gaza if an agreement can be made. But getting Palestinians and Israel to agree to a 2 state solution is a tall, tall order.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Satellite views of some of the wholesale destruction in Gaza from Israel's bombing and artillery shelling.

Before and after satellite images show Gaza destruction | CNN

New satellite images released by Maxar show significant damage to sites across Gaza.

www.cnn.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

Conditions in a hospital in Gaza. It's heartbreaking.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Israel may be walking into a trap which was the goal of Hamas's attack. Hamas might be using Netanyahu's and his far right cohorts's tendencies to get them to undermine themselves. That's a classic strategy of terrorists, to lure stronger adversaries into self-undermining actions.

Analysis: Israel’s allies fear it could be walking into a trap in Gaza as Hamas and its backers seek a wider conflict | CNN

As they watch airstrikes and hot-barreled howitzers pound targets in Gaza, check and recheck their personal weapons, communications and webbing, there can be very few among the thousands of Israeli soldiers poised for combat who don’t quietly wonder: “Is this a trap?”

www.cnn.com

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Israel may be walking into a trap which was the goal of Hamas's attack. Hamas might be using Netanyahu's and his far right cohorts's tendencies to get them to undermine themselves. That's a classic strategy of terrorists, to lure stronger adversaries into self-undermining actions.

Analysis: Israel’s allies fear it could be walking into a trap in Gaza as Hamas and its backers seek a wider conflict | CNN

As they watch airstrikes and hot-barreled howitzers pound targets in Gaza, check and recheck their personal weapons, communications and webbing, there can be very few among the thousands of Israeli soldiers poised for combat who don’t quietly wonder: “Is this a trap?”

www.cnn.com

"It’s possible – even probable – that the singular horrors inflicted on so many civilians were intended by Hamas to guarantee a massive Israeli response, no matter the cost to civilians in Gaza."

I've been saying that for two days. Hamas wants civilian casualties. That's their goal. They knew damn well what Israel would do, EVERYBODY did.