Israel vs Hamas (1 Viewer)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

If any organization on the ground is in a position to know that information independently from the MOH, it would be Save the Children. They're reporting that independently and not connecting it to the MOH numbers, so I don't see a reason to doubt it.

I think if we take your position, we wouldn't be able to believe any numbers coming out of Gaza. And I'm not claiming that you're doing this, but it's also a convenient way to dismiss the number of dead Palestinian children as an afterthought.

Sure, I'm just saying I'm not trusting anything coming from sources with ties or working with or for Hamas.

I don't know enough about where StC got their numbers, but it just sounds like too much of a coincidence that their numbers reflect what the MoH is reporting.

Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think they have enough people in Gaza to be able to adequately verify those numbers.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Things are so ugly right now in Gaza. This is turning into a genocide. Israel has already killed more children than Hamas did people in their attack. There need to be more calls for a cease fire and some pressure needs to be applied to Israel to listen and restrain itself.

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Save the Children said Monday that over 1 million children are “trapped” in Gaza with no safe place to go and warned of the devastating impacts of lacking medication and electricity to power vital health infrastructure in the enclave.

“At least 2,000 children have been killed in Gaza over the past 17 days, and a further 27 killed in the West Bank,” the aid agency said on Monday.

“We call on all parties to take immediate steps to protect the lives of children, and on the international community to support those efforts,” Save the Children said, adding that Israeli airstrikes are “killing and injuring children indiscriminately.”

Latest figures from the Hamas-controlled Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza said the death toll resulting from Israeli strikes on the strip has reached at least 5,087, including 2,055 children.
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2,000 children killed in Gaza, aid group says, as tempers flare at UN amid ceasefire calls | CNN

Tempers flared at the United Nations on Tuesday amid ceasefire calls, as aid groups and doctors in Gaza warn that power shortages threaten the lives of vulnerable infants and patients.

www.cnn.com

Hamas is counting on this. The more civilian casualties in Gaza the more Hamas likes it. No matter how hard Israel tries to curb it it's going to happen to some degree and Hamas is going to try and cause Israel to do it.

 

[Dragon]

Hamas is counting on this. The more civilian casualties in Gaza the more Hamas likes it. No matter how hard Israel tries to curb it it's going to happen to some degree and Hamas is going to try and cause Israel to do it.

But we are not Hamas and we also have to decide where OUR moral limits are. How many dead innocents are justified as collateral damage to getting rid of Hamas ?

 

[DaveXA]

But we are not Hamas and we also have to decide where OUR moral limits are. How many dead innocents are justified as collateral damage to getting rid of Hamas ?

I don't know. That's a question Hamas needs to answer. They perpetrated this well-planned attack knowing what the outcome would be.

I realize Israel is retaliating and it's unfortunately killing a lot of people, but I'm not sure where the line is in terms of a response.

I would say though that I am not supportive of how they cut off food, utilities, supplies and fuel. Punishing all 2 million Palestinians like this is making the situation worse, and isn't a proportional response.

I would say they've already crossed the proportional response line, but we're still left with Hamas in control of Gaza, and as long as that is the situation, it's untenable for Israel. Hamas is a terrorist group that needs to be removed from power before any good faith negotiations on a cease fire and a return of hostages has to happen. The longer they hold the 200+ hostages, the worse it gets.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

But we are not Hamas and we also have to decide where OUR moral limits are. How many dead innocents are justified as collateral damage to getting rid of Hamas ?

I'm on record posting here that I hope Israel will cut back on the shelling and use Special Forces with limited air strikes to go after Hamas. But that's not what I was posting about this time. I'm posting about Hamas' desire to force Israel into killing civilians so they, Hamas, can get people like you talking about "OUR moral limits".

 

[Dragon]

I'm on record posting here that I hope Israel will cut back on the shelling and use Special Forces with limited air strikes to go after Hamas. But that's not what I was posting about this time. I'm posting about Hamas' desire to force Israel into killing civilians so they, Hamas, can get people like you talking about "OUR moral limits".

It is not a question of "talking about" - it is a question of where we draw the line. We can fight Hamas but if the attrocities commited during that figth is greater than what hamas did - then where is the moral high ground ? Is it OK to kill thousands of innocent children to take revenge or to force the release of 200 other innocent people. Those children who are now losing their lives are not complicit in the crimes Hamas has comitted.

I will keep talking about the innocents as long as they are being killed - on both sides. I will not stay silent because you think that Hamas will benefit from me speaking up. Nor will I stay silent about Hamas crimes - both against Israel but also against their own.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

It is not a question of "talking about" - it is a question of where we draw the line. We can fight Hamas but if the attrocities commited during that figth is greater than what hamas did - then where is the moral high ground ? Is it OK to kill thousands of innocent children to take revenge or to force the release of 200 other innocent people. Those children who are now losing their lives are not complicit in the crimes Hamas has comitted.

I don't like civilian deaths. But I would say to the people of Gaza, don't elect a bunch of terrorists, and continue to allow them to remain in power, hiding behind you and living underground if you don't want to become collateral damage.

 

[Dragon]

I don't like civilian deaths. But I would say to the people of Gaza, don't elect a bunch of terrorists, and continue to allow them to remain in power, hiding behind you and living underground if you don't want to become collateral damage.

Those children hasn't voted for anybody - heck even most of the young adults (their parents) have not voted for Hamas since the last election was too many years ago for that to happen. Go after the terrorist - that is fine, but to go after innocent civilians is morally unacceptable!

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Those children hasn't voted for nobody - heck even most of the young adults (their parents) have not voted for Hamas since the last election was too many years ago for that to happen. Go after the terrorist - that is fine, but to go after innocent civilians is morally unacceptable!

Israel is not going after innocent civilians. They are going after terrorists that hide, live, fight, behind, and among civilians on purpose because they, Hamas, want the world to say to Israel, stop killing civilians.

 

[DaveXA]

Those children hasn't voted for anybody - heck even most of the young adults (their parents) have not voted for Hamas since the last election was too many years ago for that to happen. Go after the terrorist - that is fine, but to go after innocent civilians is morally unacceptable!

I'd argue they're not going after civilians. Civilians have been put in harm's way by Hamas militants. It's classic Hamas defense strategy. This isn't new or novel.

I hate seeing Palestinians hurt in this, but the ones in control are the ones holding hostages. Expecting Israel to sit on their hands while 200+ hostages are being held is unrealistic and frankly unreasonable.

 

[coldseat]

Israel is not going after innocent civilians. They are going after terrorists that hide, live, fight, behind, and among civilians on purpose because they, Hamas, want the world to say to Israel, stop killing civilians.

Israel's plan to wipe out Hamas will fail because it's not realistic. It will fail like our plan to wipe out Al Queada, the Taliban, and the Islamic State in Iraq failed.

They will kill a lot more civilian Palestinians on their road to wipe out Hamas not as collateral damage but as part of their plan to wipe out Hamas. There is little to indicate (from their official statements, their rhetoric and war posturing) that they care. I think it may very will be part of their calculations that less Palestinians overall will be better for Israel long term.

 

[DaveXA]

Israel's plan to wipe out Hamas will fail because it's not realistic. It will fail like our plan to wipe out Al Queada, the Taliban, and the Islamic State in Iraq failed.

They will kill a lot more civilian Palestinians on their road to wipe out Hamas not as collateral damage but as part of their plan to wipe out Hamas. There is little to indicate (from their official statements, their rhetoric and war posturing) that they care. I think it may very will be part of their calculations that less Palestinians overall will be better for Israel long term.

I don't disagree with all of that. I'm just not inclined to change my position until Hamas returns all the the hostages they kidnapped.

 

[Dragon]

For every child killed there will be a father, uncle, grandfather, brother. Who do you think they are going to blame? You can't bomb yourself to peace.

Right now Israel is helping Hamas every single time they drop a bomb. And helping Russia make the US the big bad devil

 

[UriUT]

These are before the hamas attacks.

Armored Israeli convoy shot into a group of civilians.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2023/palestine-shooting-nablus-videos/

Israeli soldier likely killed Al Jazeera reporter, conclusive answers elusive

Who killed Shireen Abu Akleh? A reconstruction by The Associated Press lends support to assertions that the veteran Palestinian-American reporter was killed by Israeli fire.

www.pbs.org

The Killing of Shireen Abu Akleh: Tracing a Bullet to an Israeli Convoy (Published 2022)

A New York Times investigation found that the bullet that killed a Palestinian-American journalist was fired from the approximate position of an Israeli military vehicle.

www.nytimes.com

West Bank: Spike in Israeli Killings of Palestinian Children

The Israeli military and border police forces are killing Palestinian children with virtually no recourse for accountability.

www.hrw.org

And these hamas attacks didn't happen in a "vacuum" (note: I'm not justifying their actions as also I do not justify Israel's action; this is more for understanding). Netanyahu doesn't want a two state solution, and he supposedly said to that effect in closed door meetings. He said that if you don't want a two state solution , you need to hold up Hamas and undermine the pla. (There are exact quotes somewhere..)

This is what is to be expected when you are perpetually in the mind set that there are enemies everywhere. Therefore a strong military is needed and it means, regardless of collateral damage, actions by the military are justified.

Netanyahu: Israel Should ‘Crush’ Palestinian Statehood Hopes - The Media Line

Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu recently told members […]

themedialine.org

In the closed meeting, Netanyahu also reportedly said Israel would do whatever was necessary to keep the PA afloat.

During years of tension with the Obama Administration, Netanyahu avoided massive settlement construction, keeping him from direct conflict with the White House. When President Donald Trump was in the White House, Netanyahu’s paradigm was strongly endorsed by Washington.

 

[DaveXA]

For every child killed there will be a father, uncle, grandfather, brother. Who do you think they are going to blame? You can't bomb yourself to peace.

Right now Israel is helping Hamas every single time they drop a bomb. And helping Russia make the US the big bad devil

I have no doubt who they're going to blame. But war is ugly and brutal. I mean, Ukraine is killing a hell of a lot of people with bombs and tanks, etc. And inevitably innocent people get caught in the crossfire. It happens in every war. I mean, there are pretty much 3 options Israel had/has. 1) ignore what happened and let Hamas keep doing what they're doing, 2) bomb infrastructure and places suspected to be used until Hamas returns hostages and a ceasefire is agreed to or 3) a ground invasion, attempt to rescue hostages and root out Hamas strongholds.

 

[UriUT]

I'm surprised no one linked Obama's statement yet.

It means recognizing that Israel has every right to exist; that the Jewish people have claim to a secure homeland where they have ancient historical roots; and that there have been instances in which previous Israeli governments made meaningful efforts to resolve the dispute and provide a path for a two-state solution — efforts that were ultimately rebuffed by the other side.

It means acknowledging that Palestinians have also lived in disputed territories for generations; that many of them were not only displaced when Israel was formed but continue to be forcibly displaced by a settler movement that too often has received tacit or explicit support from the Israeli government; that Palestinian leaders who’ve been willing to make concessions for a two-state solution have too often had little to show for their efforts; and that it is possible for people of good will to champion Palestinian rights and oppose certain Israeli government policies in the West Bank and Gaza without being anti-semitic.

 

[DaveXA]

I'm surprised no one linked Obama's statement yet.

Yeah, let's be honest, both sides aren't interested in a 2 state solution. They've both talked as though it's an option, but when one is ready, the other side always says no.

 

[UriUT]

Yeah, let's be honest, both sides aren't interested in a 2 state solution. They've both talked as though it's an option, but when one is ready, the other side always says no.

The pla has shown great willingness towards that goal. Why do you suppose Israel has not since barak?