Israel vs Hamas (3 Viewers)

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    GrandAdmiral

    GrandAdmiral

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    Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

    www.cnn.com

    Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

    Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.
    www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
     
    samiam5211 said:
    www.dw.com

    Israeli premier denies responsibilty for 1995 assassination – DW – 11/13/2016

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has rejected accusations that he helped incite the 1995 killing of then-premier Yitzhak Rabin. His hard-line Likud party is often accused of stoking up ultranationalist hate.
    www.dw.com www.dw.com
    Click to expand...
    MT15 said:
    Bibi is essentially Trump, but not painfully stupid
    Click to expand...

    This may even be. I am not sure. But this isn't even my point, and I was hoping at least to engage on what should be the long term course. We cannot afford this...financially, reputationally, diplomatically, and eventually may even drag us into a military conflict...knock on wood. China is laying the groundwork to unravel the world that we built...a liberal world order based on rules, human rights and self determination. Let's set aside Netanyahu's autocratic, corrupt tendencies. He does not view Palestinians as humans deserving of a decent life. Israel is oppressing a large group of palestinians under his watch and we support it even if we mean to or not. This goes against everything that we preach to the world. Imagine when we tell the world that China is committing human rights violations against the uighurs. They'll laugh in our face and say what about our support for Israel. We can tell the global south that we need to support Ukraine because Russia is the aggressor and wants to exterminate the Ukrainians. Again they'll laugh at us. This Israeli-Palestinian issue makes it difficult for us to assert our diplomacy.

    And this cycle of violence will go on and on until either the Palestinians are exterminated or we help them have a state of their own. Otherwise every generation or so, we face this same crisis and risk possible military confrontation. Then we'll pump more money into Israel...which btw has been the biggest recipient of our foreign aid over the years. And rinse repeat.

    That's why Rabin was special. He was willing to give up something. He sees the humanity in the Palestinians and offered land and a possibility of self determination for the end to the cycle of violence. There was possibility there that the Israeli may not fear for their safety every day...and that's a right that they deserve as well. If Northern Ireland can find peace, there must be a way.

    We need another Rabin from Israel. Netanyahu is the worst replacement for Rabin. Israeli must be convinced to see this as well.
     
    UriUT said:
    This may even be. I am not sure. But this isn't even my point, and I was hoping at least to engage on what should be the long term course. We cannot afford this...financially, reputationally, diplomatically, and eventually may even drag us into a military conflict...knock on wood. China is laying the groundwork to unravel the world that we built...a liberal world order based on rules, human rights and self determination. Let's set aside Netanyahu's autocratic, corrupt tendencies. He does not view Palestinians as humans deserving of a decent life. Israel is oppressing a large group of palestinians under his watch and we support it even if we mean to or not. This goes against everything that we preach to the world. Imagine when we tell the world that China is committing human rights violations against the uighurs. They'll laugh in our face and say what about our support for Israel. We can tell the global south that we need to support Ukraine because Russia is the aggressor and wants to exterminate the Ukrainians. Again they'll laugh at us. This Israeli-Palestinian issue makes it difficult for us to assert our diplomacy.

    And this cycle of violence will go on and on until either the Palestinians are exterminated or we help them have a state of their own. Otherwise every generation or so, we face this same crisis and risk possible military confrontation. Then we'll pump more money into Israel...which btw has been the biggest recipient of our foreign aid over the years. And rinse repeat.

    That's why Rabin was special. He was willing to give up something. He sees the humanity in the Palestinians and offered land and a possibility of self determination for the end to the cycle of violence. There was possibility there that the Israeli may not fear for their safety every day...and that's a right that they deserve as well. If Northern Ireland can find peace, there must be a way.

    We need another Rabin from Israel. Netanyahu is the worst replacement for Rabin. Israeli must be convinced to see this as well.
    Click to expand...
    Keep in mind Bibi has substantial opposition in Israel. Maybe not enough to vote him out right now, but at some point, he'll be forced out. Probably not until this whole mess is sorted out tho.

    I just hope they do better than Bibi when he's gone.
     
    Yes, but he was able to form a government. I do think he loses his position over this. Doesn’t Israel have a parliamentary form of government? I feel pretty confident they will call for an election once this war is over. And US is working really hard to cool things down. Israel said they would start the ground war in 24 hours like 5-6 days ago, didn’t they? I feel sure pressure is being applied behind the scenes.
     
    Sorry. I didn't mean to mislead that it's all netanyahu. Israeli governments before him oppressed. He continued that but expanded into West bank lands. Allowed settlers to violently attack Palestinians. I should ve been clearer. My point was more that he refused to compromise or even seek a 2 state solution. Rather he believes and shoots down anything but a one state solution without giving representation to the Palestinians.

    Sorry for my failure.
     
    UriUT said:
    Sorry. I didn't mean to mislead that it's all netanyahu. Israeli governments before him oppressed. He continued that but expanded into West bank lands. Allowed settlers to violently attack Palestinians. I should ve been clearer. My point was more that he refused to compromise or even seek a 2 state solution. Rather he believes and shoots down anything but a one state solution without giving representation to the Palestinians.

    Sorry for my failure.
    Click to expand...
    Yeah, they have an entire right wing that Bibi has pretty much capitulated to, IMO because of his legal issues but his heart leans him that way anyway. I just saw a recent poll - let me look for it.
     
    A very well reasoned and thought provoking opinion piece on this conflict from the WaPo. I agree with a lot of what he says.

    =============
    Is Hamas winning the war?

    War is the continuation of politics by other means. Many people recite this mantra, but too few pay it enough attention — especially in the midst of war. With the massacre Hamas perpetrated in Israel and the mounting civilian casualties in Gaza, the deep logic of war is hidden by the immense human misery it produces. As the bodies keep piling up, who will win this war? Not the side that kills more people, not the side that destroys more houses and not even the side that gains more international support — but the side that achieves its political aims.

    Hamas launched this war with a specific political aim: to prevent peace. After signing peace treaties with the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, Israel was on the verge of signing a historic peace treaty with Saudi Arabia. That agreement would have been Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s biggest achievement in his entire career. It would have normalized relations between Israel and much of the Arab world. At the insistence of the Saudis and Americans, the treaty’s conditions were expected to include significant concessions to the Palestinians, aimed to immediately alleviate the suffering of millions of them in the occupied territories, and restart the Israeli-Palestinian peace process.

    The prospect of peace and normalization was a deadly threat to Hamas. From its founding in 1987, this fundamentalist Islamist organization never recognized Israel’s right to exist and committed itself to uncompromising armed struggle. In the 1990s, Hamas did everything in its power to disrupt the Oslo peace process and all subsequent peace efforts.

    For more than a decade, Israeli governments led by Netanyahu abandoned all serious attempts to make peace with more moderate Palestinian forces, adopted an increasingly hawkish policy regarding the occupation of disputed territory and even embraced the right-wing messianic ideas of Jewish supremacy.

    During that period, Hamas showed surprising restraint in its dealings with Israel, and the two sides seemed to adopt an uneasy but functional policy of violent coexistence. But on Oct. 7, just when Netanyahu’s government was on the cusp of a major breakthrough for regional peace, Hamas struck with all its force.

    Hamas slaughtered hundreds of Israeli civilians, in the most gruesome ways it could devise. The immediate aim was to derail the Israeli-Saudi peace deal. The long-term aim was to sow seeds of hatred in the minds of millions in Israel and across the Muslim world, thereby preventing peace with Israel for generations to come.

    Hamas knew its attack would make Israelis livid, distraught with pain and anger, and the terrorists counted on Israel to retaliate with massive force, inflicting enormous pain on Palestinians. The codename Hamas gave its operation is telling: al-Aqsa Tufan. The word “tufan” means flood. Like the biblical flood intended to cleanse the world of sin even at the cost of nearly wiping out humanity, Hamas’s attack aimed to create devastation on a biblical scale.

    ........

    If Hamas’s war aims are indeed to derail the Israeli-Saudi peace treaty and to destroy all chance for normalization and peace, it is winning this war by a knockout. And Israel is helping Hamas, largely because Netanyahu’s government seems to be conducting this war without clear political goals of its own.

    Israel says it wants to disarm Hamas, and it has every right to do so in protecting its citizens. Disarming Hamas is vital also for any chance of future peace, because as long as Hamas remains armed, it will continue to derail any such efforts. But even if Israel succeeds in disarming Hamas, that’s just a military achievement, not a political plan. In the short term, does Israel have any plan to rescue the Israeli-Saudi peace deal? In the long term, does Israel have any plan to reach a comprehensive peace with the Palestinians and normalize its relations with the Arab world?

    Having been deeply involved in Israeli politics for the past year, I fear that at least some members of the current Netanyahu government are themselves fixated on biblical visions and absolute justice, and have little interest in peaceful compromise.

    All concerned parties must stop the flood released by Hamas from drowning Israel and the Palestinians, and from devastating the wider region, too. Note that nuclear war is, theoretically, perhaps just 24 hours away — if Hezbollah and other Iranian allies hit Israel with tens of thousands of missiles, as they are threatening to do, Israel might resort to nuclear weapons for self-preservation. All sides should therefore abandon biblical fantasies and demands for absolute justice, and focus on concrete steps to de-escalate the immediate conflict and to sow seeds for peace and reconciliation.

    .....

    =============
     
    I was watching on ABC News and they initially reported it as mother and daughter but apparently that's not the case but related I guess.
     
    bdb13 said:
    I was watching on ABC News and they initially reported it as mother and daughter but apparently that's not the case but related I guess.
    Click to expand...
    I haven't seen actual pictures of them being released. So many questions. Are they still in Gaza? If they got transported out, how? What were the terms?
     
    CNN just reported their names and they're actually in Israel now and on way to family. They apparently were released at the border. Curious as to how they did that without either side shooting at each other.
     
    DaveXA said:
    CNN just reported their names and they're actually in Israel now and on way to family. They apparently were released at the border. Curious as to how they did that without either side shooting at each other.
    Click to expand...
    It was supposedly brokered by Qatar.
     
    DaveXA said:
    Yep, saw the press conference with Blinken. Makes sense. Clearly they don't want to give away how they managed to get there. Hopefully there's more room to get those hostages out of there.
    Click to expand...
    Turned them over to representatives of Red Cross, I think. Then crossed the border into Israel with them, or were met at border by Israeli army? I saw a picture of them walking hand in hand with soldiers.
     
    I'm not liking this at all. I'm beginning to think 1) Israel should lock its border up with Gaza so that another attack like that on the 7th can't happen again. 2) They should cut the shelling way back and use it limitedly in connection with Special Forces raids.

    Hamas is an idea that is being fed by Israel at the moment, not starved. Until the Palestinian question is answered Hamas will exist.
     

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