Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

I'm not liking this at all. I'm beginning to think 1) Israel should lock its border up with Gaza so that another attack like that on the 7th can't happen again. 2) They should cut the shelling way back and use it limitedly in connection with Special Forces raids.

Hamas is an idea that is being fed by Israel at the moment, not starved. Until the Palestinian question is answered Hamas will exist.

I agree. Israel and the Palestinians need to come up with a 2 state solution that does away with Hamas and Hezbollah's influence.

I think holding off the invasion, stopping the shelling and sending in special forces to get the hostages back would be the way to go.

Easier said than done though. You can't tip your hand. Use misdirection to distract Hamas. They allegedly have 40k fighters. That's a lot, so getting the hostages out will be very difficult, and at great risk to not only themselves but also to the hostages.

 

[UriUT]

Someone had the same idea.

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4262349-unpopular-as-it-may-be-peace-is-the-solution-in-gaza/

Regardless of how much Hamas deserves retribution, no one in Israel or the U.S. should be under any illusion that the problem of violence on or within Israel’s borders can be solved through force. The Palestinian issue is some 75 years old and there has been violence of various sorts from various quarters over those years, but the problem persists.

Yet another Israeli incursion into, or even occupation of, Gaza is not going to eliminate the endless — and insane — cycle of outrage and violence. Increasing tensions on the West Bank well before the Hamas outrages in Israel underscores that the status quo is not peacefully sustainable.

While violence in Gaza in the short term is unavoidable, U.S. diplomacy needs to go beyond winning an agreement for humanitarian aid. U.S. diplomacy needs to return to negotiations for long-term peace. Sustainable peace will, perforce, be based on a two-state solution.

And this is the madness of Netanyahu. When he opened the West Bank and encroached further into Palestinian lands, he enflamed the cycle of violence further. The Israeli settler violence necessitate deploying IDF to the West Bank to protect them with IDF troops that was stationed near the borders of Gaza before. And the IDF sometimes had far right elements who participate in those violence.

Israel's biggest military operation in West Bank in years enters second day

Israel’s biggest military operation for years in the occupied West Bank continued for a second day Tuesday, leaving at least 10 Palestinians dead and forcing thousands to flee their homes as the government…

www.france24.com

Prior to this operation Israel had already stepped up raids in the northern West Bank, which has seen a recent spate of attacks on Israelis as well as Jewish settler violence targeting Palestinians.

Below may be a reaction to Hamas attacks, but it's still the norm.

IDF, settlers allegedly bind, strip, beat, burn, urinate on 3 Palestinians in W. Bank | The Times of Israel

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[UriUT]

Yeah, they have an entire right wing that Bibi has pretty much capitulated to, IMO because of his legal issues but his heart leans him that way anyway. I just saw a recent poll - let me look for it.

Yeah any steps to peace starts with his removal and prison time. He was instrumental to dismantling Rabin's work.

 

[UriUT]

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/20/1207015189/israel-hamas-yom-kippur-war

For a few days, the 1973 attackers from Egypt and Syria carried all before them, seizing territory they had lost in the Six-Day War of 1967 in the Sinai Peninsula and the Golan Heights. It seemed possible for several parlous days that the Jewish state, then just 25 years old, might not survive.

But Israel was able to turn the tide, bolstered by enormous shipments of U.S. tanks, jet fighters and ammunition, driving the attackers back.

The Israelis pursued the retreating Arabs and eventually threatened their capital cities of Cairo and Damascus. At that point, the Soviet Union intervened directly and threatened all-out war in defense of its Arab allies. At one point, U.S. nuclear forces were placed on high alert (DEFCON 3). Eventually, the U.S. and Soviet Union agreed to back a U.N. peacekeeping force, and the crisis eased.

 

[LA - L.A.]

"...if Hezbollah and other Iranian allies hit Israel with tens of thousands of missiles, as they are threatening to do, Israel might resort to nuclear weapons for self-preservation."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/10/19/hamas-winning-political-goals/

This is why I think Russia/Putin at the very least encouraged, if not supported, Hamas's attack on Israel. If Israel, as an ally of the US and Europe, uses nuclear weapons, then Russia/Putin probably thinks they could then get away with using tactical nukes in Ukraine. China/Xi might be thinking the same thing if they have plans on invading Taiwan.

I think the Doomsday Clock sits at 30 seconds before midnight now.

Doomsday Clock - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

It is 90 seconds to midnight.

thebulletin.org

 

[LA - L.A.]

I'm not liking this at all. I'm beginning to think 1) Israel should lock its border up with Gaza so that another attack like that on the 7th can't happen again. 2) They should cut the shelling way back and use it limitedly in connection with Special Forces raids.

Hamas is an idea that is being fed by Israel at the moment, not starved. Until the Palestinian question is answered Hamas will exist.

I hope you can see and understand that this is what I've sincerely been calling for and hoping for since the attack by Hamas. I wasn't spreading any propaganda and I wasn't operating from a place of hate for anyone.

 

[efil4]

This is why I think Russia/Putin at the very least encouraged, if not supported, Hamas's attack on Israel. If Israel, as an ally of the US and Europe, uses nuclear weapons, then Russia/Putin probably thinks they could then get away with using tactical nukes in Ukraine. China/Xi might be thinking the same thing if they have plans on invading Taiwan.

I think the Doomsday Clock sits at 30 seconds before midnight now.

Doomsday Clock - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

It is 90 seconds to midnight.

thebulletin.org

I think Israel would lose all support if they resort to some sort of nuclear strike. Even from US. There is no current scenario that would call for that level of response.

 

[brandon]

Until the Palestinian question is answered

 

[UriUT]

So close.

 

[zztop]

 

[MT15]

more propaganda

 

[LA - L.A.]

I think Israel would lose all support if they resort to some sort of nuclear strike. Even from US. There is no current scenario that would call for that level of response.

I agree no current scenario would call for it. I think Russia is hoping or actively trying to spark another all out Arab-Israeli war. If that happens, then Israel might consider tactical nukes. I know the US is working hard to keep the current conflict from escalating and spreading.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Israel’s window of legitimacy in Gaza is shrinking

The Middle East is poised for war

www.economist.com

Israel’s window of legitimacy in Gaza is shrinking​

The Middle East is poised for war​

Oct 22nd 2023

On Israel’s northern border with Lebanon, in the Upper Galilee, the air is heavy with acrid smoke as shelling ignites forest fires. Civilians have been evacuated and soldiers in helmets guard the junctions. Every hour or so, Hizbullah missilesexplode inside the border, and Israel launches a counter-barrage aimed at the Iran-backed militia. This is a country poised for war. To the east Israel is bombing Syrian airfields thought to be used to ship arms to militants. To the west an American aircraft-carrier strike group floats in the Mediterranean, with a second on its way to the region, to try to deter Iran and its proxies. In the south a vast Israeli invasion force awaits an order to enter the battle grounds of Gaza.

Read all our coverage of the war between Israel and Hamas

Fifteen days after Hamas’s attack on Israel, that ground invasion has yet to begin. One reason for the delay is a desperate flurry of last-minute diplomacy. On October 20th two American-Israeli hostages were released by Hamas after talks brokered by Qatar. A day later an international conference in Cairo called for a cease-fire. A limited amount of aid is now flowing across from Egypt into Gaza and negotiations over more hostage releases are ongoing.

The delay also reflects debate within Israel’s government about what kind of war it wants to fight: hard and fast, or patient and long? On October 19th field commanders finalised operational plans and the war cabinet met in Tel Aviv. After seven hours, the meeting chaired by Binyamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, ended inconclusively. Strained relationships and stress may be impeding decision making. The impetuous defence minister, Yoav Gallant, supported by some generals, wants to rush into another short, sharp war. Mr Netanyahu is chronically hesitant.

But Israel is also under pressure from allies to recalibrate its plans and move away from its customary approach of rapid shock-and-awe offensives to a more restrained, longer campaign. On October 22nd Antony Blinken, the secretary of state, said US military advice to Israel was “focused on both how they do it and how best to achieve the results that they seek” while acknowledging that “Hamas is an active threat and that needs to be dealt with”.

Every Israeli war is fought watching the clock, as international condemnation grows and eventually America qualifies its support. In 1973 America urged a ceasefire ending the Yom Kippur War despite Israeli forces being on the advance. In 2006, it imposed a ceasefire before Israel could achieve its objectives in Lebanon. As one Israeli official puts it, “our window of international legitimacy is limited.” That usually points towards using maximum force to inflict punitive damage and re-establish deterrence fast before the window closes. This time may be different.

Israel’s stated aim is expansive: to destroy Hamas’s capabilities and remove it from power. That means laboriously clearing a 500km labyrinth of tunnels and house-to-house fighting. One general involved says “to completely eliminate Hamas’ capabilities to launch rockets you must eliminate the rocket operators”, who often fire from civilian buildings. In 2016-17 it took Iraq, with help from a coalition, nine months to destroy Daesh in Mosul, a city of 2m people before it was occupied.

America also appears to want a longer, more restrained campaign. Optically Mr Biden could not be more supportive of Mr Netanyahu’s government. “I am a Zionist,” he told the war cabinet on his visit to Israel. The president is asking Congress for a $105bn emergency funding bill that includes $14bn for Israel, and America continues to build up forces in the region: on October 21st it said it would deploy additional Patriot air-defence battalions and a THAAD anti-ballistic missile battery. Mr Biden is also giving diplomatic cover: on October 18th America vetoed a draft UN Security Council resolution calling for a “humanitarian pause” and on October 21st it proposed one asserting Israel’s right to self defence. Nonetheless the White House is also clear it expects Israel to comply with the laws of war and to minimise civilian casualties. Mr Biden has urged Israel that “while you feel that rage, don’t be consumed by it”.

Finally Israel’s war cabinet may be weighing the response in the Arab world. A very rapid further rise in civilian casualties in Gaza would be more likely to trigger a response from Hizbullah and Iran, and the second front that Israel dreads. On October 19th, the launch of missiles towards Israel from Iranian-backed militants in Yemen served as a reminder of the explosive potential of Iran’s various proxies (they were intercepted by the American navy). As importantly it would lead to a deeper estrangement with the Arab states with whom Israel had improving ties before the attacks on October 7th, including the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia. Saudi has implicitly kept normalisation of diplomatic relations on the table.

A more controlled, longer campaign would still carry huge risks for Israel. Its forces could get bogged down: in 2014 soldiers got trapped in Shujaiyeh in northern Gaza and had to be protected by heavy artillery. Eado Hecht, an Israeli military analyst, has warned of 40,000 fighters from Hamas and other groups who will “conduct a deadly game of hide-and-seek with our forces for a long time”. Prolonged mobilisation will hurt the economy: the reservists are a large proportion of the workforce, as are hundreds of thousands of Israelis who have had to evacuate the areas near Gaza and along the border with Lebanon. After long periods of national mobilisation in the wars of 1973 and 1982, the country suffered prolonged recession.

The best way to try to extend Israel’s “window of legitimacy” with its Western and Arab allies would be to signal that it is prepared to participate in some kind of plan for the Palestinians if it succeeds in removing Hamas. On October 21st Mr Biden tweeted “we cannot give up on a two-state solution”. Gaza would need a credible Palestinian administration, with the backing of Arab nations, in order to rebuild and ensure Hamas does not return. Here Mr Netanyahu, who is fighting for his political survival, is doing his country no favours by denying, as he did on October 21st, that the preferred long-term solution for Gaza is to re-establish the control of the Palestinian Authority (PA), which rules in the West Bank and has condemned the Hamas attacks. Mr Netanyahu is the architect of the two-decade strategy of ignoring and isolating the Palestinians, and dividing them between Hamas-ruled Gaza and the West Bank run by a weakened PA. That failed approach is one of the reasons Israel is about to go to war against Hamas. Israel’s lack of a plan for the Palestinians could also now compromise its ability to sustain a long campaign.■

 

[coldseat]

Things are so ugly right now in Gaza. This is turning into a genocide. Israel has already killed more children than Hamas did people in their attack. There need to be more calls for a cease fire and some pressure needs to be applied to Israel to listen and restrain itself.

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Save the Children said Monday that over 1 million children are “trapped” in Gaza with no safe place to go and warned of the devastating impacts of lacking medication and electricity to power vital health infrastructure in the enclave.

“At least 2,000 children have been killed in Gaza over the past 17 days, and a further 27 killed in the West Bank,” the aid agency said on Monday.

“We call on all parties to take immediate steps to protect the lives of children, and on the international community to support those efforts,” Save the Children said, adding that Israeli airstrikes are “killing and injuring children indiscriminately.”

Latest figures from the Hamas-controlled Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza said the death toll resulting from Israeli strikes on the strip has reached at least 5,087, including 2,055 children.
=================

2,000 children killed in Gaza, aid group says, as tempers flare at UN amid ceasefire calls | CNN

Tempers flared at the United Nations on Tuesday amid ceasefire calls, as aid groups and doctors in Gaza warn that power shortages threaten the lives of vulnerable infants and patients.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

Things are so ugly right now in Gaza. This is turning into a genocide. Israel has already killed more children than Hamas did people in their attack. There need to be more calls for a cease fire and some pressure needs to be applied to Israel to listen and restrain itself.

=================
Save the Children said Monday that over 1 million children are “trapped” in Gaza with no safe place to go and warned of the devastating impacts of lacking medication and electricity to power vital health infrastructure in the enclave.

“At least 2,000 children have been killed in Gaza over the past 17 days, and a further 27 killed in the West Bank,” the aid agency said on Monday.

“We call on all parties to take immediate steps to protect the lives of children, and on the international community to support those efforts,” Save the Children said, adding that Israeli airstrikes are “killing and injuring children indiscriminately.”

Latest figures from the Hamas-controlled Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza said the death toll resulting from Israeli strikes on the strip has reached at least 5,087, including 2,055 children.
=================

2,000 children killed in Gaza, aid group says, as tempers flare at UN amid ceasefire calls | CNN

Tempers flared at the United Nations on Tuesday amid ceasefire calls, as aid groups and doctors in Gaza warn that power shortages threaten the lives of vulnerable infants and patients.

www.cnn.com

"Latest figures from the Hamas-controlled Palestinian Ministry of Health" should be taken with a massive grain of salt. Not saying people aren't dying, but I don't trust those numbers at all.

 

[coldseat]

"Latest figures from the Hamas-controlled Palestinian Ministry of Health" should be taken with a massive grain of salt. Not saying people aren't dying, but I don't trust those numbers at all.

The 2,000 dead children figure are coming from the aid organization Save the Children. Given the population percentage of children under 18 in Gaza, that's not a hard number to believe.

 

[DaveXA]

The 2,000 dead children figure are coming from the aid organization Save the Children. Given the population percentage of children under 18 in Gaza, that's not a hard number to believe.

It looks to me like they're basing that on the Ministry of Health numbers. They say over 2,000, and the official number from MOH is 2,055.

 

[coldseat]

It looks to me like they're basing that on the Ministry of Health numbers. They say over 2,000, and the official number from MOH is 2,055.

If any organization on the ground is in a position to know that information independently from the MOH, it would be Save the Children. They're reporting that independently and not connecting it to the MOH numbers, so I don't see a reason to doubt it.

I think if we take your position, we wouldn't be able to believe any numbers coming out of Gaza. And I'm not claiming that you're doing this, but it's also a convenient way to dismiss the number of dead Palestinian children as an afterthought.