Israel vs Hamas (5 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

The pla has shown great willingness towards that goal. Why do you suppose Israel has not since barak?

I can't say because I don't know enough about that part, but I know enough that both sides have rejected agreements time and time again. It's old hat for both.

 

[UriUT]

I can't say because I don't know enough about that part, but I know enough that both sides have rejected agreements time and time again. It's old hat for both.

That frontline documentary was aired 20 years ago. It's a good start. It really doesn't help that Netanyahu and the far right flames the fire when negotiation begins. I've linked a few occasions in my previous posts. And the political protection that Israel receives without any recourse doesn't motivate them to compromise. Especially during the Trump years when the Palestinians were completely sidelined. Meanwhile, while the PA tries to enforce security and ask for calm per Israeli's demands in the West Bank, they lose credibility with Palestinians because Israel under Netanyahu continues to steal land in the West Bank...and doing things I linked.

 

[Dragon]

I have no doubt who they're going to blame. But war is ugly and brutal. I mean, Ukraine is killing a hell of a lot of people with bombs and tanks, etc. And inevitably innocent people get caught in the crossfire. It happens in every war. I mean, there are pretty much 3 options Israel had/has. 1) ignore what happened and let Hamas keep doing what they're doing, 2) bomb infrastructure and places suspected to be used until Hamas returns hostages and a ceasefire is agreed to or 3) a ground invasion, attempt to rescue hostages and root out Hamas strongholds.

You cant compare the two. Ukraine is not throwing a lot of bombs on russian civilians. And yet there are literally thousands of abducted Ukrainian children in Russia

 

[brandon]

For those lamenting civilian casualties, I ask: what is Israel’s alternative?

 

[Dragon]

I can't say because I don't know enough about that part, but I know enough that both sides have rejected agreements time and time again. It's old hat for both.

I have followed that conflict for +30 years and what UriUT said is correct. The only time there was a real chance of peace and then an ultra-right wing supporter of the current Israeli leadership assasinated the Israelian president. Since then Israel have gradually taken over more and more palestinian land and even more importantly - taken over most of the watersupply separating the remaining few farmers from water to irrigate their fields while piping the water to israelian settlements. I can find at least 100+ incidents where IDF has killed children for no more apparent reason than protesting the occupation.

 

[Dragon]

For those lamenting civilian casualties, I ask: what is Israel’s alternative?

Going after the leaders of Hamas

 

[DaveXA]

You cant compare the two. Ukraine is not throwing a lot of bombs on russian civilians. And yet there are literally thousands of abducted Ukrainian children in Russia

The lay of the land and battlefields are far far different though. And there are plenty of Russian civilians in parts of Ukraine that Russian claims is theirs, i.e. Crimea.

The difference is most Russians have been able to get out of the way.

When you have the enemy embedded in one of the most densely populated areas in the world, and Hamas hasn't exactly been helpful in getting civilians out of harm's way, this is what you get. An extremely difficult situation. Hamas is goading them into it yes, but again, we all know that Israel isn't going to let Hamas get away with kidnapping and holding 200+ people hostage after butchering another 1400. What they did was classic terrorist tactics, raping and burning and beheading bodies. Their intent was to strike fear in the hearts of their enemy, and it's pissed them off more than anything else.

 

[DaveXA]

Going after the leaders of Hamas

How do you suppose they do that? You think they know where the leaders are? Not to mention they likely have a plan for when their leaders get offed. They're probably expecting it.

 

[Dragon]

The lay of the land and battlefields are far far different though. And there are plenty of Russian civilians in parts of Ukraine that Russian claims is theirs, i.e. Crimea.

The difference is most Russians have been able to get out of the way.

When you have the enemy embedded in one of the most densely populated areas in the world, and Hamas hasn't exactly been helpful in getting civilians out of harm's way, this is what you get. An extremely difficult situation. Hamas is goading them into it yes, but again, we all know that Israel isn't going to let Hamas get away with kidnapping and holding 200+ people hostage after butchering another 1400. What they did was classic terrorist tactics, raping and burning and beheading bodies. Their intent was to strike fear in the hearts of their enemy, and it's pissed them off more than anything else.

Which is precisely WHY they should take the higher ground. But like a bunch of angry bees they do just what Hamas wanted them to do. They were on the brink of getting peace but no arab nation will sign any treaty now with what Israel have done in return

 

[DaveXA]

I have followed that conflict for +30 years and what UriUT said is correct. The only time there was a real chance of peace and then an ultra-right wing supporter of the current Israeli leadership assasinated the Israelian president. Since then Israel have gradually taken over more and more palestinian land and even more importantly - taken over most of the watersupply separating the remaining few farmers from water to irrigate their fields while piping the water to israelian settlements. I can find at least 100+ incidents where IDF has killed children for no more apparent reason than protesting the occupation.

If you're gonna talk about that and ignore what Arafat did, we're not gonna be able to have an honest discussion on this.

 

[DaveXA]

Which is precisely WHY they should take the higher ground. But like a bunch of angry bees they do just what Hamas wanted them to do. They were on the brink of getting peace but no arab nation will sign any treaty now with what Israel have done in return

Sure, and Hamas made sure of it. I mean, I really don't agree with Bibi's approach and I'd probably do it differently, but Israel has been burned by coalitions before, so I get why they're responding the way they are.

 

[Dragon]

Arafat came to the negotiation table in good faith and Rabin did likewise. Both willing to put aside previous deeds in order to ensure peace. And yes - both Israel and the PLO had done plenty of bad stuff at that time. I don't support terrorism but remember that sometimes a negotiated peace is better than to keep the war going for another generation. Bibi's party was against the peace treaty and one of his followers assasignated Rabin - Not Plo and not any palestinian. Right after the assasination Israel once again began to assimilate palestinian owned land btw...

 

[Dragon]

Sure, and Hamas made sure of it. I mean, I really don't agree with Bibi's approach and I'd probably do it differently, but Israel has been burned by coalitions before, so I get why they're responding the way they

Bibi has always been against any peace with the palestinian and keep refering to 2000 years old text to prove ownership of all the land. Which would be like if native americans would suddently claim that all non-natives should be restrained to small enclaves and be under the law of the original tribes...

 

[DaveXA]

Arafat came to the negotiation table in good faith and Rabin did likewise. Both willing to put aside previous deeds in order to ensure peace. And yes - both Israel and the PLO had done plenty of bad stuff at that time. I don't support terrorism but remember that sometimes a negotiated peace is better than to keep the war going for another generation. Bibi's party was against the peace treaty and one of his followers assasignated Rabin - Not Plo and not any palestinian. Right after the assasination Israel once again began to assimilate palestinian owned land btw...

I understand that, but Arafat had multiple opportunities to say yes when all parties had come to agreement, and Arafat kept saying no and never really laid out what exactly he objected to. That's pretty well documented.

And yes, I have no doubt one of Bibi's followers assassinated Rabin. That really upset me and I'll never forgive Bibi for that. I think Bibi needs to go, but I don't know how that happens in this environment right now.

 

[DaveXA]

Bibi has always been against any peace with the palestinian and keep refering to 2000 years old text to prove ownership of all the land. Which would be like if native americans would suddently claim that all non-natives should be restrained to small enclaves and be under the law of the original tribes...

Yes, and that's certainly a part of why I oppose Bibi as a leader. He's terrible for Israel.

 

[bdb13]

How do you suppose they do that? You think they know where the leaders are? Not to mention they likely have a plan for when their leaders get offed. They're probably expecting it.

Yeah old leaders get offed and you just end up with new leaders taking their place.

The situation is thoroughly forked and there's no workable solution to be found. The Palestinians want Jews to die and the Israelis can't solve the issue of terrorism committed by Hamas without committing mass genocide. That's the reality now regardless of how we got here.

 

[UriUT]

I understand that, but Arafat had multiple opportunities to say yes when all parties had come to agreement, and Arafat kept saying no and never really laid out what exactly he objected to. That's pretty well documented.

And yes, I have no doubt one of Bibi's followers assassinated Rabin. That really upset me and I'll never forgive Bibi for that. I think Bibi needs to go, but I don't know how that happens in this environment right now.

One key disagreement was the Al Aqsa mosque in East Jerusalem. Both parties were still negotiating and yet Sharon, a far right PM went there to flame the violence. That put Arafat in a difficult position on what he can negotiate. I believe he was quoted saying do you want me dead to the Israeli negotiator.

Edit:

I don't think you'll find anyone who'll say neither side didn't make mistakes...and that Arafat should've taken the deal despite great pressure from his side. He could've also reacted more proactively against Hamas when Perez asked. But the important distinction is that both parties negotiated in good faith. Remember, the PLO was considered a terrorist organization and killed many innocent lives. The Israeli policies then also killed many innocent lives.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Which is precisely WHY they should take the higher ground. But like a bunch of angry bees they do just what Hamas wanted them to do. They were on the brink of getting peace but no arab nation will sign any treaty now with what Israel have done in return

They are taking the higher ground. Hamas went into Israel to murder Jews, not fight the IDF. Israel is going after Hamas.