Israel vs Hamas (1 Viewer)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

Satellite views of some of the wholesale destruction in Gaza from Israel's bombing and artillery shelling.

Before and after satellite images show Gaza destruction | CNN

New satellite images released by Maxar show significant damage to sites across Gaza.

www.cnn.com

Yeah, I read yesterday it was roughly 40% of the buildings in Gaza were destroyed. That's a pretty big number.

 

[DaveXA]

Israel may be walking into a trap which was the goal of Hamas's attack. Hamas might be using Netanyahu's and his far right cohorts's tendencies to get them to undermine themselves. That's a classic strategy of terrorists, to lure stronger adversaries into self-undermining actions.

Analysis: Israel’s allies fear it could be walking into a trap in Gaza as Hamas and its backers seek a wider conflict | CNN

As they watch airstrikes and hot-barreled howitzers pound targets in Gaza, check and recheck their personal weapons, communications and webbing, there can be very few among the thousands of Israeli soldiers poised for combat who don’t quietly wonder: “Is this a trap?”

www.cnn.com

No doubt about that. And it certainly feels like Bibi doesn't care that he's being baited. It was the whole point of the viciousness and brutality of the massacre that started it.

It's why I want Bibi out. He's pretty much the Trump of Israel. He's their leader though. Israel has to decide if they've had enough of him, but I don't know when their next elections are planned.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I've been saying that for two days. Hamas wants civilian casualties. That's their goal. They knew damn well what Israel would do, EVERYBODY did.

That doesn't absolve Israel's responsibility for the innocent people they kill.

You're missing the point. Hamas counted on Netanyahu and his fascists cohorts, who are currently ruling over Israel, using the Hamas attacks as an excuse to kill innocent Palestinians, which is exactly what Netanyahu and his cohorts have been doing.

A significant and large portion of Israelis are condemning the attacks by Hamas while also calling on Netanyahu and his fascist cohorts to stop the unjustified killing of innocent Palestinians. A lot of the people who lost loved ones to the Hamas attack are calling on Netanyahu to stop the indiscriminate assault on Gaza.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

That doesn't absolve Israel's responsibility for the innocent people they kill.

You're missing the point. Hamas counted on Netanyahu and his fascists cohorts, who are currently ruling over Israel, using the Hamas attacks as an excuse to kill innocent Palestinians, which is exactly what Netanyahu and his cohorts have been doing.

A significant and large portion of Israelis are condemning the attacks by Hamas while also calling on Netanyahu and his fascist cohorts to stop the unjustified killing of innocent Palestinians. A lot of the people who lost loved ones to the Hamas attack are calling on Netanyahu to stop the indiscriminate assault on Gaza.

Arnold Schwarzenegger's 'Anti-Hate' Message Amidst Israel Hamas War​

 

[LA - L.A.]

Yeah, I read yesterday it was roughly 40% of the buildings in Gaza were destroyed. That's a pretty big number.

Everything that follows is my opinion that I base on what I see as a pattern emerging from decades of public historical record from multiple perspectives include some that are contradictory and opposing.

Around 40% of the buildings in a densely populated area of 2 million people of which around 40% are children has been destroyed by bombing and artillery fire.

40% of 2 million people is around 800,000 children.

1,000 children out of 800,000 children is equal to 0.125% or .125 out of every 100 children.

Netanyahu is not simply targeting Hamas or trying to destroy Hamas. You don't destroy around 40% of all buildings to do that. Netanyahu is using the same total destruction boming and artilley strategy that Putin uses. He's using Hamas as cover to commit unnecessary mass murder against innocent Palestinians of which a large percentage are children.

When the Nazis invaded the western territories of the Soviet Union, like modern day Ukraine, they spared adults in villages while killing all of the children, because killing the children is the most effective way to exterminate a group of people. Anyone here who is a hunter understands that killing the young is how you decimate a population for generations.

Israel is not accidentally killing Palestinian children or doing it because they have no choice. Killing the innocent children in Gaza is a feature of Netanyahu's plans, it's not a bug. Hamas wants Netanyahu and the fascists running Israel to show their true colors to the world in hopes of starting an Arab-Israeli-Persian-Slavic-Euro-Sino-PanAmerican-Aussie war or for NATO to stop supporting Isreal which would leave it vulnerable.

Russia wants to conquer Ukraine and other European countries. China wants to conquer Taiwan and expand it's control over the Asian Pacific. Iran and many Arab nations, controlled by militant Muslims, want to drive Jews out of Israel and the areas they occupy. They all want to destroy the global influence of the democratic countries of NATO.

Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia and China have been and are coordinating on this. They are banking on Netanyahu not being able to be restrained which will force NATO into a no win scenario. Either NATO supports Netanyahu in Isreal's mass murder of innocent Palestinian. That will undermine NATO's influence in the world and spread NATO too thin to thwart Russia in Europe and China in the Asian Pacific.

The NATO nations's other option will be to distance themselves and withrdrawal a lot of their support from Israel which will leave Israel vulnerable to the militant Muslim nations, which likely lead to a global conflict that Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea have been preparing for and wanting.

It's not a coincidence that Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea have ramped up their propaganda efforts over the past decade with the intention of creating civil division and a rise in right wing authoritarianism within every single NATO nation. Russia's initial invasion and seizing of Crimea was the probing raid. Russias all out invasion of Ukraine was the opening salvo. Hamas's attack was the opening of a new front.

Hamas was planning their recent attack with Russian support before Russia invaded Ukraine. That's not a coincidence. For the past two years, China has been openly running excercises to invade Taiwan. That's not a coincidence.

If NATO nations allow Netanyahu to do what he and his cohorts want to do to innocent Palestianians, a third world war will be inevitable. This is what Russia, China, Iran, North Korea and militant Muslim nations and organizations want. They want to upend NATO-EuroAmerican global influence and realign it in their favor. Some are motivated by greed and power, some are motivated by religious zeal, some are motivated by vengence, some are motivated by a sincere, but misguided, sense of survival, but they all want the same thing. They want to reverse the current global power dynamics. If Netanyahu is not restrained, they will likely get what they want.

The most important and compelling reason that Netanyahu should be restrained is to save the lives of innocent Palestinians, just like the most compelling reason to restrain Hamas is to protect the innocent lives of Israelis.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Arnold Schwarzenegger's 'Anti-Hate' Message Amidst Israel Hamas War​

How do you think that video is relevant to what I said in my post? Are you acknowledging that Schwarzenegger and I have pretty much the same philosophy and approach to life? How I approach life is very much in line with what he says in that video.

 

[DaveXA]

Everything that follows is my opinion that I base on what I see as a pattern emerging from decades of public historical record from multiple perspectives include some that are contradictory and opposing.

Around 40% of the buildings in a densely populated area of 2 million people of which around 40% are children has been destroyed by bombing and artillery fire.

40% of 2 million people is around 800,000 children.

1,000 children out of 800,000 children is equal to 0.125% or .125 out of every 100 children.

Netanyahu is not simply targeting Hamas or trying to destroy Hamas. You don't destroy around 40% of all buildings to do that. Netanyahu is using the same total destruction boming and artilley strategy that Putin uses. He's using Hamas as cover to commit unnecessary mass murder against innocent Palestinians of which a large percentage are children.

When the Nazis invaded the western territories of the Soviet Union, like modern day Ukraine, they spared adults in villages while killing all of the children, because killing the children is the most effective way to exterminate a group of people. Anyone here who is a hunter understands that killing the young is how you decimate a population for generations.

Israel is not accidentally killing Palestinian children or doing it because they have no choice. Killing the innocent children in Gaza is a feature of Netanyahu's plans, it's not a bug. Hamas wants Netanyahu and the fascists running Israel to show their true colors to the world in hopes of starting an Arab-Israeli-Persian-Slavic-Euro-Sino-PanAmerican-Aussie war or for NATO to stop supporting Isreal which would leave it vulnerable.

Russia wants to conquer Ukraine and other European countries. China wants to conquer Taiwan and expand it's control over the Asian Pacific. Iran and many Arab nations, controlled by militant Muslims, want to drive Jews out of Israel and the areas they occupy. They all want to destroy the global influence of the democratic countries of NATO.

Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia and China have been and are coordinating on this. They are banking on Netanyahu not being able to be restrained which will force NATO into a no win scenario. Either NATO supports Netanyahu in Isreal's mass murder of innocent Palestinian. That will undermine NATO's influence in the world and spread NATO too thin to thwart Russia in Europe and China in the Asian Pacific.

The NATO nations's other option will be to distance themselves and withrdrawal a lot of their support from Israel which will leave Israel vulnerable to the militant Muslim nations, which likely lead to a global conflict that Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea have been preparing for and wanting.

It's not a coincidence that Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea have ramped up their propaganda efforts over the past decade with the intention of creating civil division and a rise in right wing authoritarianism within every single NATO nation. Russia's initial invasion and seizing of Crimea was the probing raid. Russias all out invasion of Ukraine was the opening salvo. Hamas's attack was the opening of a new front.

Hamas was planning their recent attack with Russian support before Russia invaded Ukraine. That's not a coincidence. For the past two years, China has been openly running excercises to invade Taiwan. That's not a coincidence.

If NATO nations allow Netanyahu to do what he and his cohorts want to do to innocent Palestianians, a third world war will be inevitable. This is what Russia, China, Iran, North Korea and militant Muslim nations and organizations want. They want to upend NATO-EuroAmerican global influence and realign it in their favor. Some are motivated by greed and power, some are motivated by religious zeal, some are motivated by vengence, some are motivated by a sincere, but misguided, sense of survival, but they all want the same thing. They want to reverse the current global power dynamics. If Netanyahu is not restrained, they will likely get what they want.

The most important and compelling reason that Netanyahu should be restrained is to save the lives of innocent Palestinians, just like the most compelling reason to restrain Hamas is to protect the innocent lives of Israelis.

I'm curious if you think Israel is able to walk this back or are they beyond the point of no return at this point?

I think it's pretty close. My support of Israel has limits and I'm really uncomfortable with the direction Bibi is taking them. Biden and NATO need to do all they can to slow Israel's roll, but I'm not sure Bibi will listen.

By the way, I agree with a lot here. Particularly as it relates to NATO. Had this happened 2 or 3 years ago before the Russia-Ukraine war, I think NATO would have quickly fallen apart.

It's stronger than ever right now, but that can change pretty quickly with the mess in Israel.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I'm curious if you think Israel is able to walk this back or are they beyond the point of no return at this point?

I think it's pretty close. My support of Israel has limits and I'm really uncomfortable with the direction Bibi is taking them. Biden and NATO need to do all they can to slow Israel's roll, but I'm not sure Bibi will listen.

I'm not convinced that it's predominately Bibi who is pushing this campaign of bombing and shelling of Gaza. But I don't know that.

Can they walk it back? I'm not sure they want to and that's a scary thought.

Israel’s Strikes on Gaza Are Some of the Most Intense This Century

In the 19 days since Hamas attacked Israel, the Israeli military says it has struck more than 7,000 targets in Gaza. Palestinians accuse Israel of indiscriminately targeting civilians, but Israel officials say the strikes are aimed at eroding military infrastructure.

www.nytimes.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

I'm curious if you think Israel is able to walk this back or are they beyond the point of no return at this point?

I think Netanyahu, and I make that distinction because Netanyahu is not representative of all Israeli's just like Trump is not representative of all Americans, can walk it back, I'm not sure that he wants to or that he will. I honestly believe he has the same personality traits as Putin and all other tyrants. He's done a lot to subvert democracy in Israel and defy the actual will of the people of Israel. He is not Israel, he just currently rules Israel with his cohorts.

I think it's pretty close. My support of Israel has limits and I'm really uncomfortable with the direction Bibi is taking them. Biden and NATO need to do all they can to slow Israel's roll, but I'm not sure Bibi will listen.

I support the people of Israel just like I support the people of Russia, China and North Korea. It's their jackhole leaders that I oppose.

By the way, I agree with a lot here. Particularly as it relates to NATO. Had this happened 2 or 3 years ago before the Russia-Ukraine war, I think NATO would have quickly fallen apart.

It's stronger than ever right now, but that can change pretty quickly with the mess in Israel.

Yeah, I don't think things are going the way Russia and the others thought it would, but they're pretty much all in which is when things start to get really dicey and more volatile. The whole "every one has a plan until they get punched in the face" dynamic. I think Russia got an unexpected punch in the face and kick in gonads in Ukraine. I think that's why their actions are less calculated and more reactionary.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I'm not convinced that it's predominately Bibi who is pushing this campaign of bombing and shelling of Gaza. But I don't know that.

Can they walk it back? I'm not sure they want to and that's a scary thought.

The "want to" is also what I'm more concerned about than the "can they." There's always a way if the will is there. I don't put it all on Netanyahu. He's just one of a group of people and is the one in the public light. In other words, I think he's part of it,, but defintely not all of it. It takes more than just one person. For me, Netanyau is just shorthand for the current ruling extreme right of Israel and they do not have the support of the majority of Israelis nor are they representative of the majority of Israelis.

Israel’s Strikes on Gaza Are Some of the Most Intense This Century

In the 19 days since Hamas attacked Israel, the Israeli military says it has struck more than 7,000 targets in Gaza. Palestinians accuse Israel of indiscriminately targeting civilians, but Israel officials say the strikes are aimed at eroding military infrastructure.

www.nytimes.com

 

[UriUT]

What Palestinians Really Think of Hamas

Before the war, Gaza’s leaders were deeply unpopular—but an Israeli crackdown could change that.

www.foreignaffairs.com

Arab Barometer, a research network where we serve as co-principal investigators, conducted a survey in Gaza and the West Bank days before the Israel-Hamas war broke out. The findings, published here for the first time, reveal that rather than supporting Hamas, the vast majority of Gazans have been frustrated with the armed group’s ineffective governance as they endure extreme economic hardship.

Look, I get that israeli wants blood, as did we after 9/11. But I’ve replied before of this picking sides….do you like a slow boiling frog or one that gets stumped on? The Israeli government has caged in 2.5 million people. Limit their movement, killed a few every so often in raids, and violated their human rights. Steal their land while aimlessly killing innocent Palestinians on the other Palestinian land with roughly the same population size. Or we have a mass terror attack brutally killing innocent israeli lives?

None of this is in a vacuum and it's a vicious cycle of cause and effect.

In the short term, asking them to limit the casualty however they can (I understand Biden is against a ground invasion) is as much for their sake as it is for us, morally and diplomatically. If that hospital bombing doesn’t teach us about the fragile thread holding this whole thing from blowing up…i don’t think when we find ourselves bombing southern Lebanon or Iran will convince us….With American lives at risk and broader conflicts elsewhere. One bomb even lead to questions of the moral righteousness of Israel's action. Imagine now tens of thousands dead because of a blood lust that doesn't solve anything.

Hamas has/will blend in with the civilians. So you kill a few hamas; you breed more bc of the death of someone's family.

This problem cannot be solved with violence....that is unless you have one side completely annihilated.

 

[UriUT]

Everything that follows is my opinion that I base on what I see as a pattern emerging from decades of public historical record from multiple perspectives include some that are contradictory and opposing.

Around 40% of the buildings in a densely populated area of 2 million people of which around 40% are children has been destroyed by bombing and artillery fire.

40% of 2 million people is around 800,000 children.

1,000 children out of 800,000 children is equal to 0.125% or .125 out of every 100 children.

Netanyahu is not simply targeting Hamas or trying to destroy Hamas. You don't destroy around 40% of all buildings to do that. Netanyahu is using the same total destruction boming and artilley strategy that Putin uses. He's using Hamas as cover to commit unnecessary mass murder against innocent Palestinians of which a large percentage are children.

When the Nazis invaded the western territories of the Soviet Union, like modern day Ukraine, they spared adults in villages while killing all of the children, because killing the children is the most effective way to exterminate a group of people. Anyone here who is a hunter understands that killing the young is how you decimate a population for generations.

Israel is not accidentally killing Palestinian children or doing it because they have no choice. Killing the innocent children in Gaza is a feature of Netanyahu's plans, it's not a bug. Hamas wants Netanyahu and the fascists running Israel to show their true colors to the world in hopes of starting an Arab-Israeli-Persian-Slavic-Euro-Sino-PanAmerican-Aussie war or for NATO to stop supporting Isreal which would leave it vulnerable.

Russia wants to conquer Ukraine and other European countries. China wants to conquer Taiwan and expand it's control over the Asian Pacific. Iran and many Arab nations, controlled by militant Muslims, want to drive Jews out of Israel and the areas they occupy. They all want to destroy the global influence of the democratic countries of NATO.

Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia and China have been and are coordinating on this. They are banking on Netanyahu not being able to be restrained which will force NATO into a no win scenario. Either NATO supports Netanyahu in Isreal's mass murder of innocent Palestinian. That will undermine NATO's influence in the world and spread NATO too thin to thwart Russia in Europe and China in the Asian Pacific.

The NATO nations's other option will be to distance themselves and withrdrawal a lot of their support from Israel which will leave Israel vulnerable to the militant Muslim nations, which likely lead to a global conflict that Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea have been preparing for and wanting.

It's not a coincidence that Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea have ramped up their propaganda efforts over the past decade with the intention of creating civil division and a rise in right wing authoritarianism within every single NATO nation. Russia's initial invasion and seizing of Crimea was the probing raid. Russias all out invasion of Ukraine was the opening salvo. Hamas's attack was the opening of a new front.

Hamas was planning their recent attack with Russian support before Russia invaded Ukraine. That's not a coincidence. For the past two years, China has been openly running excercises to invade Taiwan. That's not a coincidence.

If NATO nations allow Netanyahu to do what he and his cohorts want to do to innocent Palestianians, a third world war will be inevitable. This is what Russia, China, Iran, North Korea and militant Muslim nations and organizations want. They want to upend NATO-EuroAmerican global influence and realign it in their favor. Some are motivated by greed and power, some are motivated by religious zeal, some are motivated by vengence, some are motivated by a sincere, but misguided, sense of survival, but they all want the same thing. They want to reverse the current global power dynamics. If Netanyahu is not restrained, they will likely get what they want.

The most important and compelling reason that Netanyahu should be restrained is to save the lives of innocent Palestinians, just like the most compelling reason to restrain Hamas is to protect the innocent lives of Israelis.

I really doubt this becomes a world war. Widened regional conflict? Maybe. The Persian gulf commerce traffic becomes a standstill….China, Europe, their economies suffer. No one wants this.

 

[DaveXA]

The "want to" is also what I'm more concerned about than the "can they." There's always a way if the will is there. I don't put it all on Netanyahu. He's just one of a group of people and is the one in the public light. In other words, I think he's part of it,, but defintely not all of it. It takes more than just one person. For me, Netanyau is just shorthand for the current ruling extreme right of Israel and they do not have the support of the majority of Israelis nor are they representative of the majority of Israelis.

I think we all want the same thing here. Just differ in some of the details. Not all that far apart on what the issues are. I just hope Israel doesn't completely fork it all up.

 

[UriUT]

For those lamenting civilian casualties, I ask: what is Israel’s alternative?

I get what you are trying to say, I think….but how this is worded is callous. We all should lament civilian deaths…on either side btw.

 

[DaveXA]

I really doubt this becomes a world war. Widened regional conflict? Maybe. The Persian gulf commerce traffic becomes a standstill….China, Europe, their economies suffer. No one wants this.

I think Russia and Iran do. China, probably not. Certainly not Europe. And the ME is probably gearing up for that regional conflict. It can easily turn global because of both the UN and NATO/EU factors. We all need to tread carefully imo.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I really doubt this becomes a world war. Widened regional conflict? Maybe. The Persian gulf commerce traffic becomes a standstill….China, Europe, their economies suffer. No one wants this.

I hope you're right and if all of the power brokers choose their actions from a place of reason, then it won't.

My concern is that some of the power brokers are irrational people and some of the others sometimes let their emotions cloud their decision making.

Violence and war are inherently irrational and emotionally driven. History is full of brilliant strategists who made catastrophically self-destructive choices.

 

[brandon]

I get what you are trying to say, I think….but how this is worded is callous. We all should lament civilian deaths…on either side btw.

Yes, it wasn't worded ideally, I suppose. I certainly lament civilian deaths on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides. It's horrible. But my issue is that no one who is asking for restraint is also able to offer a viable solution for how Israel should respond.

If they don't do anything, they're going to get attacked again. Hamas does not believe in the right of Israel to exist. So doing nothing is not an option.

A "proportional" response leaves you with the same problem. Hamas does not believe in the right of Israel to exist, so leaving any Hamas leaders or fighters standing means it's just a matter of time before you're attacked again.

Total destruction of Hamas is the only solution that ensures (maybe?) that Hamas fighters don't attack again in the future. But to do this, because of Hamas' intentional integration of civilian and military infrastructure, civilian deaths are certain.

They have made some efforts to ensure civilians get the chance to leave. They haven't yet started the ground incursion, showing significant restraint. But at some point, reality is going to set in.

There is no viable alternative for Israel. I hate it. But it's the truth.

America had to make this choice before during WWII. It's a terrible choice. But sometimes it's the only choice.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I think we all want the same thing here. Just differ in some of the details. Not all that far apart on what the issues are. I just hope Israel doesn't completely fork it all up.

I agree and think the disagreements are a result of miscommunication because the language we use doesn't mean the exact same things to each of us, so we misunderstand what people are trying to communicate to us.