Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

Why doesn't Israel have to show more restraint?

You gotta ask them that. The reality is, they're gonna invade Gaza soon. It's only a matter of when at this point. You can argue about the right or wrong of it. But I'm looking for a way for Palestinians to get out of Gaza before the invasion starts.

And fwiw, if they weren't restrained, they would have already invaded by now imo.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

European leaders pledge crackdown on antisemitism as incidents rise

Bans on pro-Hamas celebrations and pro-Palestinian protests announced in several countries amid tensions

www.theguardian.com

European leaders pledge crackdown on antisemitism as incidents rise​

Bans on pro-Hamas celebrations and pro-Palestinian protests announced in several countries amid tensions

• Israel and Hamas at war – live updates

Officials across Europe are scrambling to curtail any spillover of tensions from the Israel-Hamas war, with Germany pledging a “zero tolerance” approach to antisemitism and France banning pro-Palestinian protests amid concerns for public order.

The German chancellor, Olaf Scholz, told parliament on Thursday that while thousands of people had rallied in support of Israel, the country had also seen “disgraceful images on our streets in which the most brutal acts of terror have been celebrated in broad daylight”.

The remarks came after demonstrations in Berlin and Duisburg in which sweets and cakes were handed out to participants as some danced and cheered in apparent joy at the atrocities carried out in Israel.

Emmanuel Macron, meanwhile, warned that antisemitic acts and defending terrorism would be dealt with “severely” in France – home to a large Jewish and Muslim populations – in a televised address on the Israel-Hamas crisis on Thursday evening

The French president said the country should not give in to “any form of hate” but must remain united. “Let us not add national divisions to international divisions,” he said.

In recent days 24 people had been arrested after a spate of antisemitic incidents, said the country’s interior minister, Gérald Darmanin.

 

[MT15]

And fwiw, if they weren't restrained, they would have already invaded by now imo.

So much this. It’s a bit frustrating to see people so one-sided in this. It reminds me of people who blame Democrats for not bending over backwards to work with Republicans. There are things Hamas should be doing and they are not doing any of them. The leaders of Hamas, those ultimately responsible for this entire mess, have no problem with encouraging the people who live in Gaza to remain in the line of fire, from their comfortable perch in Quatar.

 

[Huntn]

I don't see a war crime there yet, nor have I heard anyone with the proper credentials say that Israel has committed one. We'll see as time goes on. Unfortunately, it's likely to get uglier.

What number of collateral damage will it take?

 

[Huntn]

It's all moot. The 6 million Jews are there to stay. And if they want peace, the only solution is a 2 state solution. In a one state solution, they can provide the Palestinians representation...which won't happen. or they continue to oppress and take more land. Or they can exterminate them?

Unfortunately,

Israelis have grown more skeptical of a two-state solution

Only 35% of Israelis believe that Israel and an independent Palestine can coexist peacefully, down from 44% in 2017.

www.pewresearch.org

Those far right orthodox Jews are butt crevasses. They are exempt from military service...as is required from all other israeli..and they stir up trouble...I'm going to assume the guy that killed the 19 yo Palestinian is a haredi jew from how he is dressed.

If it was all moot, Israel would continue to face attacks and war.

My impression, correct me if I’m wrong, that under Israeli rules, Palestinians are somewhere between second class citizens and oppressed in a variety of economic ways for the sake of Israeli security. I remember as far back as the 1980s this kind of reporting. Yeah, so kids are being taught to hate Israel. Is this a surprise? (Not an accusation).

There has to some element of reaping what you sew which has gone on for decades. The terrorist or the freedom fighter, it depends on which which side you lean. I think I’ve made my position clear, that both sides are playing a role in this ongoing tragedy that started when the UN decided to enable the creation of Israel at the expense of Palestine. It’s that simple.

And while I can never condone the manner Hamas approached it’s attack, I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians. And while I sympathies when Israel suffers, I’m critical of their treatment of Palestine. It’s almost as if thinking that keeping the Palestinians beaten down will solve their problems. Oppression begets violence, violence begets more violence, back and forth, an endless cycle then you have to consider who you think is more justified or who is more to blame. And we will be there protecting Israel… so this is costing us too.

If you are not going to kill off the all the Palestinians, without a 2 State solution, with continued oppression, Israel will continue to face violence unless they deem it appropriate to kill off all the Palestinians …for their security. And the rest of the world will judge them, and other Arab/Muslim countries will hate and possibly take action against them. It sounds untenable to me.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Israeli official confirms that Israel has resumed water supply to Gaza

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[MT15]

 

[LA - L.A.]

You gotta ask them that. The reality is, they're gonna invade Gaza soon. It's only a matter of when at this point. You can argue about the right or wrong of it. But I'm looking for a way for Palestinians to get out of Gaza before the invasion starts.

I understand.

And fwiw, if they weren't restrained, they would have already invaded by now imo.

That's your opinion. My opinion is that the constant bombing and leveling of entire residential buildings to attack Hamas terrorists that pose no immediate or short term threat to people outside of Gaza is a complete lack of restraint on Israel's part.

 

[DaveXA]

I understand.

That's your opinion. My opinion is that the constant bombing and leveling of entire residential buildings to attack Hamas terrorists that pose no immediate or short term threat to people outside of Gaza is a complete lack of restraint on Israel's part.

The same Hamas terrorists who attacked them a week ago poses no threat from Gaza? Really? They're lobbing rockets and surely will plan to fight when the offensive into Gaza begins. They'll be a threat soon enough if not already.

Any military preparing to invade a territory (regardless of justification) is going to do the same thing.

 

[UriUT]

"It's up to you to accept it,.........."

No, it's not up to me. It's up to those who can prosecute or not.

Again, the question is how long will the international community stand by and watch as a war is being fought in one of the most densely populated areas in the world between two such disparate combatants? It doesn't look like very long, but we will see.

If you continue to press us with that question, I would hope that you would understand the agreed definition of what constitutes a war crime and not rely on someone else to tell you. That is the boundary which the international community operates. Whether you want to justify shutting down the power plant because it is a strategic advantage, that's your call, and that would be your answer to your question.

 

[MT15]

I understand.

That's your opinion. My opinion is that the constant bombing and leveling of entire residential buildings to attack Hamas terrorists that pose no immediate or short term threat to people outside of Gaza is a complete lack of restraint on Israel's part.

A group of Americans had to take shelter today in Tel Aviv due to a Hamas rocket launched at them. Where do you get your information that Hamas poses no threat to Israelis?

 

[MT15]

When the foreign people are allowed to leave Gaza, humanitarian aid will be brought in.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Let me start with this:

Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?

1984 George Orwell

For years, Netanyahu, and his fascist cohorts, have publicly used fighting Hamas and other terrorists organizations as the "revolution" to gain and maintain fascist control over Israel. Netanyahu and his fascist cohorts are in control of the Israeli army and it's response to Hamas's recent attack. Their current bombing campaign and cutting off of essential goods and services to everyone in Gaza is not gaining them any real military or security advantage. What they are mostly doing, and have been doing for decades, is inflicting mass suffering and death on non-combatant people. Refer to Orwell's quote above to understand why Netanyahu and his fascist cohorts keep doing this.

It is very much frustrating to see people be so one-sided on the decades long tragedy between Israel and Palestinians. It's also sad to me that so many people blind themselves to their one-sidedness.

I have made it clear that I condemn the actions of both Hamas and Israel. That is the opposite of being one-sided. If one only condemns the actions of Israel, that is being one-sided. If one only condemns the actions of Hamas, that is also being one-sided. It's possible to condemn both for their actions and the actions of both should be condemned if being objective. It's possible to equally condemn the murder of non-combatants being killed in Gaza by Israeli's as it is to condemn the murder of non-combatants outside of Gaza killed by Hamas. That is exactly where I am. Tragically, that is not where the vast majority of the world is.

Again, I blame Hamas for the attack and the unnecessary suffering and death they inflicted, but that does not mean I'm going to overlook Israel's long standing fascism against Palestinians and the unnecessary suffering and death they inflict. Want to know why I keep harping on Israel? Because just like the US slave owners had over their slaves, Israel has a lot more power over Palestinians. With that lot more power should come a lot more responsibility and being held to a lot higher standard, not a lower one.

There are incidents of slaves committing terrorist acts in the US south. Suffering and death were inflicted on slaves for those acts of terror, even a whole lot of slaves who did not participate in the terrorist attacks and were no where near the terrorist attacks. Is anyone willing to go on the record to say that the suffering and death inflicted on non-combatant slaves is solely the fault of the slaves that committed the acts of terror? Anyone besides white supremacist fascists. We all know fascist always blame the people they are oppressing for all of the suffering and death they inflict on the people they oppress.

If one says it's not the same thing, then I think one is blinding themself to the entire reality of the Israeli-Palestinian tragedy which has been going on for decades. Israel operates from the position of power and has inflicted suffering and death on significantly more people than the terrorists have, just like slave owners inflicted suffering on death on significantly more people than the slaves did. People shouldn't cast stones at others for one-sidedness when they are being one-sided themselves.

For over a decade, guess what has happened to members of the press and foreign humanitarian aid workers when Israel doesn't like what those press members and foreign aid workers have shown to the world? Most of the world press whitewashes the empirical fact that Israel harasses, intimidates and kills press members and foreign aid workers that dare to present a complete picture of the Palesitnian-Israeli tragedy to the world. Israel only allows one-sided coverage of the tragic situation between Israelis and Palestinians. That's Putin level tactics that the world press quickly points out and always condemns Putin for and the world press also always holds it up to the world as proof that Putin and Russia are fascist regimes. Why have Netanyahu and his fascist cohorts who have been reiging over Israel with fascist policies and actions not been held to the same standard?

 

[LA - L.A.]

Unless one has gone days without water or knows someone who has, one may not realize how much suffering and damage happens from going days without water, especially in the climate of Gaza while under the extreme stress of being in a combat zone.

 

[LA - L.A.]

A group of Americans had to take shelter today in Tel Aviv due to a Hamas rocket launched at them. Where do you get your information that Hamas poses no threat to Israelis?

I'm aware of that attack and mistakenly used absolute terminology when my thinking is not absolute. I know Hamas poses some threat, but the bombing campaign by Israel is not significantly decreasing that threat and to me it's unjustifiably disproportionate to the threat Hamas poses.

What was damaged and who was killed by they rocket attack? From what I heard Israel's Iron Dome intercepted the attack. Am I mistaken. I haven't seen any reports of a successful rocket strike past the borders of Israel for a few days now. I don't go hunting for reports, I only look at the main stories on major news outlets. Seems to me that the major news outlets would give a missile strike inside Israel headline coverage.

Show me reports from a neutral military analysts saying that the scale and scope of Israel's bombing sorties has done anything to significantly decrease rocket launches from Hamas or successful missile strikes within Israel. Hamas burned through most of their supply and Israel successfully destroyed most of Hamas's stockpiles and ability to resupply in the first few days.

I'm not saying that Israel doesn't need to conduct any bombing sorties, I'm saying that the scope and scale of their campaign is unnecessary to gain real military advantage or to increase the security of people within Israel.

It's not a black-and-white or zero-sum game situation. It shouldn't be seen that way by anyone. I wonder if people would so doggedly defend Israel's unnecessary inflicting of suffering and death in Gaza if they had Palestinian family in Gaza. It's easy to rationalize the suffering and deaths of non-combatant Palestinians as inevitable, necessary and/or justified, when they are known only as theoretical abstracts and not actual flesh and blood people. It's a lot harder to dispose of them so easily when they are seen as actual people.

It's why Matthew McConaughey's character in A Time to Kill had the jury close their eyes to picture what the little black girl suffered and ended with "now image she's white." Imagine the people in Gaza being someone one knows; one's brother, sister, mother, father, child, husband, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, young cousin, or best friend. Would one write off the deaths of those people in Gaza as necessary, justified or inevitable deaths? I don't think one would.

 

[Lapaz]

Agreed, there aren't any safe zones in Gaza. They would need to be allowed to cross into Egypt. And I know it sucks for Egypt, but they have to bite the bullet here and allow passage. I don't see how you can sit there and allow 2 million people to remain trapped in southern Gaza. I do hope Israel gives them enough time to get out before starting the invasion.

The toughest part will be weeding out Hamas fighters trying to flee. You can't allow them to stay and regain power after all this is done.

I don’t think there is any way to completely weed them out. However, if the Hamas fighters hide with the rest of the Palestinians, then they won’t be attacking Israelis. That will make it easier to go into Gaza to destroy the tunnels and other infrastructure that is threatening. Subsequently, Israel will probably have to occupy Gaza until they can stabilize their government.

So much this. It’s a bit frustrating to see people so one-sided in this. It reminds me of people who blame Democrats for not bending over backwards to work with Republicans. There are things Hamas should be doing and they are not doing any of them. The leaders of Hamas, those ultimately responsible for this entire mess, have no problem with encouraging the people who live in Gaza to remain in the line of fire, from their comfortable perch in Quatar.

I think your take is more one-sided. Hamas is evil, but that doesn’t mean Israel is justified to kill innocent civilians around them. We don’t have to approve of whatever it takes, regardless of the collateral damage. It’s understandable that there will be some innocent civilians killed, but those should be minimized. If Israel forces civilians to seek refuge without services, there will be death and suffering.

 

[zztop]

And while I can never condone the manner Hamas approached it’s attack, I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians. And while I sympathies when Israel suffers, I’m critical of their treatment of Palestine. It’s almost as if thinking that keeping the Palestinians beaten down will solve their problems. Oppression begets violence, violence begets more violence, back and forth, an endless cycle then you have to consider who you think is more justified or who is more to blame. And we will be there protecting Israel… so this is costing us too.

I more or less feel the same way as this ^
I really don't understand these extremes of tribalism that some groups go to. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I saw this video posted elsewhere, which you might find interesting. I have no way of verifying, but if it is to be trusted information then the issue in this geographic area is very complex

 

[MT15]

Both of you seem to think I am defending the killing of civilians in Hamas, when I am decidedly not doing that. What I am doing is saying this isn’t as easy of a solution as people seem to think, it’s not as black and white as people seem to think, and what is happening here is that a couple of people are decidedly blaming Israel and not Hamas (except in passing when they feel they have to). I have seen it, it is obvious. It’s a double standard even if you say it isn’t. You blame Israel more for what they are doing than you blame Hamas for what they are doing.

That’s what I mean when I say that Hamas could and should be doing a lot of things to safeguard civilian lives in Gaza and they are doing none of them. Their leaders live in Doha, they don’t even live in Gaza. They are not making any efforts to safeguard civilians in Gaza, in fact they are urging them to stay in the war zone. Yet we get zero posts blaming them, and long expositions on how evil Israel is.

Look, there is plenty of blame to go around in the Middle East, nobody there has clean hands. They are all more similar than they are different as cultures and peoples. I am trying to go by what is happening right now and what the facts are right now.

What I have seen so far is that Israel is at least saying they don’t want to kill innocent civilians. They are at least able to be persuaded to restore water to Gaza, they have delayed their ground attack to give people time to find a way out.

Hamas is doing nothing. Hamas deliberately murdered over a thousand Israelis in one day, men, women, elderly, children and babies. They videotaped a lot of the carnage and posted the videos on social media, sometimes to the actual FB pages of the people they murdered so their families would be sure to see them. They took many hostages and are threatening to execute them. They continue to try to kill more civilians. This isn’t a close call in my book. Hamas bears the main responsibility for this mess.