Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[MT15]

Just horrible:

 

[MT15]

I think this is good news:

 

[MT15]

This is terrible:

 

[DaveXA]

Both of you seem to think I am defending the killing of civilians in Hamas, when I am decidedly not doing that. What I am doing is saying this isn’t as easy of a solution as people seem to think, it’s not as black and white as people seem to think, and what is happening here is that a couple of people are decidedly blaming Israel and not Hamas (except in passing when they feel they have to). I have seen it, it is obvious. It’s a double standard even if you say it isn’t. You blame Israel more for what they are doing than you blame Hamas for what they are doing.

That’s what I mean when I say that Hamas could and should be doing a lot of things to safeguard civilian lives in Gaza and they are doing none of them. Their leaders live in Doha, they don’t even live in Gaza. They are not making any efforts to safeguard civilians in Gaza, in fact they are urging them to stay in the war zone. Yet we get zero posts blaming them, and long expositions on how evil Israel is.

Look, there is plenty of blame to go around in the Middle East, nobody there has clean hands. They are all more similar than they are different as cultures and peoples. I am trying to go by what is happening right now and what the facts are right now.

What I have seen so far is that Israel is at least saying they don’t want to kill innocent civilians. They are at least able to be persuaded to restore water to Gaza, they have delayed their ground attack to give people time to find a way out.

Hamas is doing nothing. Hamas deliberately murdered over a thousand Israelis in one day, men, women, elderly, children and babies. They videotaped a lot of the carnage and posted the videos on social media, sometimes to the actual FB pages of the people they murdered so their families would be sure to see them. They took many hostages and are threatening to execute them. They continue to try to kill more civilians. This isn’t a close call in my book. Hamas bears the main responsibility for this mess.

You said it better than I could. Thank you.

 

[DaveXA]

I think this is good news:

Yep, been saying this all along. Hamas doesn't represent the interests of the Palestinian people, and neither does Hezbollah for that matter. In fact, they're more influenced by Iran than they are by Palestinians. Certainly Hezbollah is. Hamas is a bit more difficult to nail down who they actually speak for but certainly a lot of their support comes from Iran and Russia. That much is clear.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Let me start with someone who I respect and learned from:

Noam Chomsky

American professor and one of the world’s most revered public intellectuals, Avram Noam Chomsky had once called out Israel's occupied territory and said, “In the Occupied Territories, what Israel is doing is much worse than apartheid. To call it apartheid is a gift to Israel, at least if by “apartheid” you mean South African-style apartheid. What’s happening in the Occupied Territories is much worse.”

Israel- Hamas Conflict: Noam Chomsky to Ilan Pappe, famous Jews who have strongly opposed Israel - CNBC TV18

Though the countries remain divided amid the ongoing Hamas-Israel war many famous Jews across the world have strongly opposed the ideas of Israel in the past as well.

www.cnbctv18.com

The ADL constantly assaults Chomsky with accusations of being anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel for it's treatment of Palestinians. Did anyone here blame black terrorist in South Africa for the suffering and death that the South African government inflicted on innocent black South Africans? I didn't think so and it's double standards.

Yet we get zero posts blaming them, and long expositions on how evil Israel is.

Count up the number of posts that blame only Hamas vs the number of posts that truly (not just posts that in your judgement didn't blame Hamas enough or blamed Israel too, so the blame of Hamas doesn't count to you), only blame Israel. You will see there is an abundance of posts blaming only Hamas to nearly zero posts that actually say Israel is evil or blame only Israel. You think you see something happening in this thread that empirically and verifiably has not happened in this thread.

If you think anyone said Israel is evil, because of their criticism of Israeli actions, then you aren't being objective and are seeing this issue from a very one-sided perspective, the exact thing you inaccurately accuse others of doing.

What I have seen so far is that Israel is at least saying they don’t want to kill innocent civilians.

Haven't you said and don't you believe that actions speak louder than words? That actions reveal true intent? Israel in actuality is unnecessarily inflicting suffering and death on thousands of innocent people in Palestine. Israel's actions, like with all people, show you their true intent. Donald Trump says he upholds the Constitution. Do you believe him even those his actions show the complete opposite to be true?

Hamas is doing nothing. Hamas deliberately murdered over a thousand Israelis in one day, men, women, elderly, children and babies.

Which is Hamas's fault and is unacceptably terrible. That doesn't make what Israel has unnecessarily been doing for years and is currently doing to innocent Palestinians not Israel's fault and not unacceptably terrible.

If person A gets raped, that is terrible. If person A then rapes someone else because they were raped, that's equally terrible. Innocent victims don't have a right to victimize other innocent people just because they were victims. We should never accept that standard, especially in war. It's inhumane, immoral and the same rationalization that terrorists use to justify their actions. If you victimize innocent people because you've been victimized, you are engaging in terrorist activity.

They videotaped a lot of the carnage and posted the videos on social media,

Hamas doing that is terrible and reprehensible, but it doesn't justify the wanton murdering of other innocent people which is what Israel has and continues to do. They are both equally bad and Israel has the most power and causes suffering and death for the most people, so they should be held to a higher standard. Just like law enforcement, prison workers and soldiers should be held to a higher standard than criminals and terrorists.

Hamas bears the main responsibility for this mess.

This is where your logic turns illogical, probably due to your emotional response to the carnage done by Hamas. Hamas bears all of the responsibility for everything they actually do. Israel bears all of the blame for everything they choose to do. They are choosing to unnecessarily inflict suffering and death upon millions of innocent Palestinians and have been for decades. Israel bears all of the responsibility for all of the unnecessary suffering and death they have inflicted on innocent Palestinians.

That is a consistent standard. You are the one who is using double standards while accusing others of using double standards.

You are caught up in tribalism, pure and simple. You support the tribe of Israel and hate the tribe of Hamas(which is understandable and justified), so you blame the tribe of Hamas for everything unacceptable that the tribe of Israel does, because it's easier for you to blame the tribe you hate than to admit that the tribe you like is to blame for the unacceptable and terrible things that they have been doing for decades and continue to do. You know a lot of what Israel is doing is wrong, but you choose to blame Hamas instead of Israel for the wrong things that Israel is doing.

The Hamas people on the ground on the front lines attacked and killed innocent people because of the innocent people they knew and loved being killed by Israel. That doesn't make Israel to blame for the suffering and death inflicted on innocent people by Hamas people.

You are doing the exact same thing that infuriates you when you see Republicans do it and that you rail against Republicans for doing. That's because you identify with the tribe of Democrats and see the tribe of Republicans as the enemy. Don't cast stones at others if you don't want them cast right back at you, especially when you are inside a glass house.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

............................................It's easy to rationalize the suffering and deaths of non-combatant Palestinians as inevitable, necessary and/or justified, when they are known only as theoretical abstracts and not actual flesh and blood people. It's a lot harder to dispose of them so easily when they are seen as actual people.

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You mean the way Hamas sees them "as actual people"?

BTW, that's a weak post.

 

[LA - L.A.]

You mean the way Hamas sees them "as actual people"?

This is an irrational response, unless you're saying it's okay for us not to care about innocent Palestinians because Hamas doesn't.

White supremacist don't see people who aren't white as people, so we shouldn't see people who aren't white as people?

Conservative Christians don't see people who are LGBTQIA+ as people, so we shouldn't see them as people either?

If Hamas jumps off a cliff, are you going to jump off the cliff with them? I didn't think so.

 

[LA - L.A.]

You mean the way Hamas sees them "as actual people"?

BTW, that's a weak post.

You added the last sentence after I first responded to your post.

My post is only seen as a weak post by people so caught up in tribalism they let themselves be callous and uncaring to the welfare of millions of innocent Palestinians. That's what's weak. It's easy to follow the mob with pitchforks and torches without question whether lynching an entire family for the action of one is okay or not.

These ad hominem drive-bys are meaningless and useless.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

You added the last sentence after I first responded to your post.

My post is only seen as a weak post by people so caught up in tribalism they let themselves be callous and uncaring to the welfare of millions of innocent Palestinians. That's what's weak. It's easy to follow the mob with pitchforks and torches without question whether lynching an entire family for the action of one is okay or not.

These ad hominem drive-bys are meaningless and useless.

Nonsense. Your post is weak because it's weak. I know of no one either personally or in here who doesn't care about the Palestinians. We all care about the civilians on both sides. Your posts are BS propaganda.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Your posts are BS propaganda.

I sincerely believe there's a very high likelihood that you are trying project on to me what you are actually doing with your posts, yet I've shown you the respect of not mentioning it before now, because I know I don't know what your intentions are.

Do you want to continue down this path? It would be best that we don't, but I'm not going to let you cast completely unfounded accusations like that at me unanswered by me.

Things that you don't like to hear and don't know how to respond, other than just being categorically dismissive, does not = propaganda.

I'm speaking from my heart and my truth. Just read my posts in https://madaboutpolitics.com/threads/is-russia-about-to-invade-ukraine.183210/, https://madaboutpolitics.com/threads/all-things-racist-usa-edition.133904/, and https://madaboutpolitics.com/threads/all-things-lgbtq.142737/ threads to see that everything I'm saying here is consistent with everything I've said in those threads.

 

[DaveXA]

Let me start with someone who I respect and learned from:


The ADL constantly assaults Chomsky with accusations of being anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel for it's treatment of Palestinians.

No one person or group speaks for all Israelis. Likewise for Palestinians.

Count up the number of posts that blame only Hamas vs the number of posts that truly (not just posts that in your judgement didn't blame Hamas enough or blamed Israel too, so the blame of Hamas doesn't count to you), only blame Israel. You will see there is an abundance of posts blaming only Hamas to nearly zero posts that actually say Israel is evil or blame only Israel. You think you see something happening in this thread that empirically and verifiably has not happened in this thread.

What I'm reading is equivocation of Israel's actions and Hamas. There's no comparing the two. Both are wrong for different reasons. They're not the same. If Hamas doesn't attack and kill over a thousand Israelis, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We're here because of their actions. You can say Israel is partly responsible, but Hamas' mission and goals have never been a 2 state solution or even coexisting with Israel. Their aim is the establishment of the Caliphate, which inherent in that is the destruction of all non-Muslim people and faiths.

They no more represent Muslims and Palestinians than Bob Jones represents Christians.

If you think anyone said Israel is evil, because of their criticism of Israeli actions, then you aren't being objective and are seeing this issue from a very one-sided perspective, the exact thing you inaccurately accuse others of doing.

What it feels like is equivocation between Israel and Hamas. If one thinks Hamas is evil, then it stands to reason that extends to Israel if considering them equally culpable.

Haven't you said and don't you believe that actions speak louder than words? That actions reveal true intent? Israel in actuality is unnecessarily inflicting suffering and death on thousands of innocent people in Palestine. Israel's actions, like with all people, show you their true intent. Donald Trump says he upholds the Constitution. Do you believe him even those his actions show the complete opposite to be true?

There supposedly are 40k Hamas terrorists in Gaza. And allegedly, they're holding not only over a hundred hostages, but telling thousands of Palestinians to stay, no doubt because need their human shields and propaganda material when Israel inevitably invades Gaza. I feel terrible for the innocent Palestinians caught in the middle of all of that. There will never be resolution until Hamas is removed from equation, whether by Israel or by Palestinians.

I do agree actions speak louder than words. By and large. Israel cannot stand by and allow Hamas to regroup and attempt more attacks. Their actions in response to the Hamas massacre are justified to a degree. There's a reason for cutting off power, water etc. And that's to make it clear to Palestinians that Hamas is not in control and that staying put would not be feasible. They need to get out before the invasion happens. We'll disagree on the necessity of all of that. But it is what it is.

Which is Hamas's fault and is unacceptably terrible. That doesn't make what Israel has unnecessarily been doing for years and is currently doing to innocent Palestinians not Israel's fault and not unacceptably terrible.

Of course not. No one said they weren't responsible for their actions in how they've often treated Palestinians. But again, Israel isn't a monolithic state. There are Israelis speaking out against their leadership and have committed to helping Palestinians. Not enough, but they are out there.

If person A gets raped, that is terrible. If person A then rapes someone else because they were raped, that's equally terrible. Innocent victims don't have a right to victimize other innocent people just because they were victims. We should never accept that standard, especially in war. It's inhumane, immoral and the same rationalization that terrorists use to justify their actions. If you victimize innocent people because you've been victimized, you are engaging in terrorist activity.


Hamas doing that is terrible and reprehensible, but it doesn't justify the wanton murdering of other innocent people which is what Israel has and continues to do. They are both equally bad and Israel has the most power and causes suffering and death for the most people, so they should be held to a higher standard. Just like law enforcement, prison workers and soldiers should be held to a higher standard than criminals and terrorists.


This is where your logic turns illogical, probably due to your emotional response to the carnage done by Hamas. Hamas bears all of the responsibility for everything they actually do. Israel bears all of the blame for everything they choose to do. They are choosing to unnecessarily inflict suffering and death upon millions of innocent Palestinians and have been for decades. Israel bears all of the responsibility for all of the unnecessary suffering and death they have inflicted on innocent Palestinians.

That is a consistent standard. You are the one who is using double standards while accusing others of using double standards.

You are caught up in tribalism, pure and simple. You support the tribe of Israel and hate the tribe of Hamas(which is understandable and justified), so you blame the tribe of Hamas for everything unacceptable that the tribe of Israel does, because it's easier for you to blame the tribe you hate than to admit that the tribe you like is to blame for the unacceptable and terrible things that they have been doing for decades and continue to do. You know a lot of what Israel is doing is wrong, but you choose to blame Hamas instead of Israel for the wrong things that Israel is doing.

The Hamas people on the ground on the front lines attacked and killed innocent people because of the innocent people they knew and loved being killed by Israel. That doesn't make Israel to blame for the suffering and death inflicted on innocent people by Hamas people.

You are doing the exact same thing that infuriates you when you see Republicans do it and that you rail against Republicans for doing. That's because you identify with the tribe of Democrats and see the tribe of Republicans as the enemy. Don't cast stones at others if you don't want them cast right back at you, especially when you are inside a glass house.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I sincerely believe there's a very high likelihood that you are projecting, yet I've shown you the respect of not mentioning it.

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Well, let me mention it then. YOU are projecting. I care deeply about the Palestinian people. As someone who has laid on a battle field, bleeding to death, with shocks going through my body, I'm sicken for the Palestinians. As someone who was mortared while lying in an intensive care unit in Da Nang Vietnamn , I'm dying for those Palestinians who are in hospitals that can't find a safe place to go. As someone who has been through enough to fill an entire page in this forum I suggest you back off, you litteraly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[DaveXA]

Let me start with someone who I respect and learned from:


The ADL constantly assaults Chomsky with accusations of being anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel for it's treatment of Palestinians.

Had to repost because i got cut off and couldn't edit my original post.

No one person or group speaks for all Israelis. Likewise for Palestinians.

Count up the number of posts that blame only Hamas vs the number of posts that truly (not just posts that in your judgement didn't blame Hamas enough or blamed Israel too, so the blame of Hamas doesn't count to you), only blame Israel. You will see there is an abundance of posts blaming only Hamas to nearly zero posts that actually say Israel is evil or blame only Israel. You think you see something happening in this thread that empirically and verifiably has not happened in this thread.

What I'm reading is equivocation of Israel's actions and Hamas. There's no comparing the two. Both are wrong for different reasons. They're not the same. If Hamas doesn't attack and kill over a thousand Israelis, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We're here because of their actions. You can say Israel is partly responsible, but Hamas' mission and goals have never been a 2 state solution or even coexisting with Israel. Their aim is the establishment of the Caliphate, which inherent in that is the destruction of all non-Muslim people and faiths.

They no more represent Muslims and Palestinians than Bob Jones represents Christians.

If you think anyone said Israel is evil, because of their criticism of Israeli actions, then you aren't being objective and are seeing this issue from a very one-sided perspective, the exact thing you inaccurately accuse others of doing.

What it feels like is equivocation between Israel and Hamas. If one thinks Hamas is evil, then it stands to reason that extends to Israel if considering them equally culpable.

Haven't you said and don't you believe that actions speak louder than words? That actions reveal true intent? Israel in actuality is unnecessarily inflicting suffering and death on thousands of innocent people in Palestine. Israel's actions, like with all people, show you their true intent. Donald Trump says he upholds the Constitution. Do you believe him even those his actions show the complete opposite to be true?

There supposedly are 40k Hamas terrorists in Gaza. And allegedly, they're holding not only over a hundred hostages, but telling thousands of Palestinians to stay, no doubt because need their human shields and propaganda material when Israel inevitably invades Gaza. I feel terrible for the innocent Palestinians caught in the middle of all of that. There will never be resolution until Hamas is removed from equation, whether by Israel or by Palestinians.

I do agree actions speak louder than words. By and large. Israel cannot stand by and allow Hamas to regroup and attempt more attacks. Their actions in response to the Hamas massacre are justified to a degree. There's a reason for cutting off power, water etc. And that's to make it clear to Palestinians that Hamas is not in control and that staying put would not be feasible. They need to get out before the invasion happens. We'll disagree on the necessity of all of that. But it is what it is.

Which is Hamas's fault and is unacceptably terrible. That doesn't make what Israel has unnecessarily been doing for years and is currently doing to innocent Palestinians not Israel's fault and not unacceptably terrible.

Of course not. No one said they weren't responsible for their actions in how they've often treated Palestinians. But again, Israel isn't a monolithic state. There are Israelis speaking out against their leadership and have committed to helping Palestinians. Not enough, but they are out there.

If person A gets raped, that is terrible. If person A then rapes someone else because they were raped, that's equally terrible. Innocent victims don't have a right to victimize other innocent people just because they were victims. We should never accept that standard, especially in war. It's inhumane, immoral and the same rationalization that terrorists use to justify their actions. If you victimize innocent people because you've been victimized, you are engaging in terrorist activity.

I agree with the premise, but I disagree with how you're applying it.

Hamas doing that is terrible and reprehensible, but it doesn't justify the wanton murdering of other innocent people which is what Israel has and continues to do.

Sorry, but no. They're not wantonly murdering innocents, period.

They are both equally bad and Israel has the most power and causes suffering and death for the most people, so they should be held to a higher standard.

And sorry, but i completely disagree with the equally bad assertion. Its simply a false equivalency.

I agree Israel should be held to a higher standard, but not an impossible one. If they can't be allowed to defend themselves and make their country more secure, then that's expecting them to do something no other country would do.

This is where your logic turns illogical, probably due to your emotional response to the carnage done by Hamas. Hamas bears all of the responsibility for everything they actually do. Israel bears all of the blame for everything they choose to do. They are choosing to unnecessarily inflict suffering and death upon millions of innocent Palestinians and have been for decades. Israel bears all of the responsibility for all of the unnecessary suffering and death they have inflicted on innocent Palestinians.

Yes, Israel is responsible for their actions over the decades, but all of that is a two way street. And a lot of the blame lies in how the state was established in the first place. There's no easy fixing that. Israel has paid a high price for being in the state they're in. They've dealt with terrorist attacks for nearly a century. They haven't always responded well to them and they have done some injust things over the years, and they get called on it when it's too much. There's always give and take on this topic, and there's a lot of blame to go around.

That is a consistent standard. You are the one who is using double standards while accusing others of using double standards.

You are caught up in tribalism, pure and simple. You support the tribe of Israel and hate the tribe of Hamas(which is understandable and justified), so you blame the tribe of Hamas for everything unacceptable that the tribe of Israel does, because it's easier for you to blame the tribe you hate than to admit that the tribe you like is to blame for the unacceptable and terrible things that they have been doing for decades and continue to do. You know a lot of what Israel is doing is wrong, but you choose to blame Hamas instead of Israel for the wrong things that Israel is doing.

And I stand by what I said in my earlier comments, these aren't 2 tribes. There is Hamas, a terrorist organization, and Israel, a sovereign country. You're comparing apples and peanuts.

The Hamas people on the ground on the front lines attacked and killed innocent people because of the innocent people they knew and loved being killed by Israel. That doesn't make Israel to blame for the suffering and death inflicted on innocent people by Hamas people.

You are doing the exact same thing that infuriates you when you see Republicans do it and that you rail against Republicans for doing. That's because you identify with the tribe of Democrats and see the tribe of Republicans as the enemy. Don't cast stones at others if you don't want them cast right back at you, especially when you are inside a glass house.

 

[LA - L.A.]

No one person or group speaks for all Israelis. Likewise for Palestinians.

I've never said otherwise.

What I'm reading is equivocation of Israel's actions and Hamas.

Then you're not hearing what I'm saying. I've never said they are equal and I don't rank the two groups. That's tribalism. This tribe is better than that tribe. The murder that tribe commits is worse than the murder this tribe commits.

The entirety of what I'm saying is that Israel has and continues to inflict unnecessary suffering and death on innocent civilians and that is unacceptable, regardless of what else anyone else has done to them. We don't get to murder innocent people because innocent people we care about got murdered. That's indiscriminate vengeance. pure and simple. It's not justice, it's not justified and it has nothing to do with security.

What it feels like is equivocation between Israel and Hamas.

This is the problem. Your feelings on this issue are distorting your perception of what I have been consistently saying. You agree with my logic on other issues, but not on this one. That's what feelings do to all of us. I'm not demeaning you, because I have feelings too and they sometimes distort my perception of things.

If one thinks Hamas is evil, then it stands to reason that extends to Israel if considering them equally culpable.

I've made it very clear I hold them individually responsible for what they have individually done. I'm not blaming the entire situation on Hamas or Israel, because that's irrational. I'm blaming Hamas only for what Hamas has done and I'm blaming Israel only for what Israel has done that is unnecessary. I hope that clarifies it for you. I operate on a case by case basis, not a blanket or categorical basis.

I also don't think Hamas or Israel is evil. I think evil is a buzz word of propagandist used to justify inflicting unnecessary suffering and death on innocent people. That is always how it has been historically used. Look back at all of my posts in this thread and others to see that I'm being honest with you when I say I don't use or buy into the concept of evil.

There supposedly are 40k Hamas terrorists in Gaza. And allegedly, they're holding not only over a hundred hostages, but telling thousands of Palestinians to stay, no doubt because need their human shields and propaganda material when Israel inevitably invades Gaza. I feel terrible for the innocent Palestinians caught in the middle of all of that. There will never be resolution until Hamas is removed from equation, whether by Israel or by Palestinians.

Hamas and other terrorists will never be removed until Israel stops inflicting unnecessary suffering and death on Palestinians just because they are Palestinians or unless Palestinians get their own, secure state which has the water, food and other resources they need to live. We won't the same thing, an end to Hamas and other terrorists. That will never happen as long as Israel continues to inflict unnecessary suffering and death on innocent people.

I do agree actions speak louder than words. By and large. Israel cannot stand by and allow Hamas to regroup and attempt more attacks.

Israel doesn't have to keep killing as many innocent people as they are killing to achieve that goal.

They didn't have to cut off the goods and resources that they did to millions of innocent people to achieve that goal.

They don't have bomb as many buildings as they are bombing to achieve that goal.

They didn't do any of that, because they have to.

Israel did all of that, because they can and they know they can get away with it. Tragically and sadly, they are right about that.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I agree with the premise, but I disagree with how you're applying it.

That's logically inconsistent on your part.

Sorry, but no. They're not wantonly murdering innocents, period.

Not sorry, but yes. They most certainly are as I've explained over and over. I've asked before and crickets. Quote neutral military analysts that are saying that the scope and scale of Israel's bombing sorties are necessary for military advantage or Israel security.

You want find any, because it's not true. They know Israel will rain PR hell down on them if they say it's not necessary, so they stay silent. That silence speaks volumes.

And sorry, but i completely disagree with the equally bad assertion. Its simply a false equivalency.

Murdering some innocent people is equally as bad as murdering other innocent people if being objective. You are equivocating, the thing you falsely accuse me of doing.

And I stand by what I said in my earlier comments, these aren't 2 tribes. There is Hamas, a terrorist organization, and Israel, a sovereign country. You're comparing apples and peanuts.

No, you're not hearing and understanding what I'm actually saying because you are blinded by your feelings.

Hamas and Israel are both tribes in regards to tribalism. One tribe being bigger than thee other or having a different social structure than the other, does not mean they are not tribes in regards to tribal mentality.

I stand by everything I said too. What exactly is the point of saying that? I assume that everyone stands by what they say, so why make a point of letting it be known by saying it?

 

[DaveXA]

I've never said otherwise.

Ok.

Then your not hearing what I'm saying. I've never said they are equal and I don't rank the two groups. That's tribalism. This tribe is better than that tribe. The murder that tribe commits is worse than the murder of this tribe.

You specifically stated they are equally bad.

The entirety of what I'm saying is that Israel has and continues to inflict unnecessary suffering and death on innocent civilians and that is unacceptable, regardless of what else anyone else has done to them. We don't get to murder innocent people because innocent people we care about got murdered. That's indiscriminate vengeance. pure and simple. It's not justice, it's not justified and it has nothing to do with security.

Well, we'll have to disagree here because I don't think that's what's happening, as you describe it.

This is the problem. Your feelings on this issue are distorting your perception of what I have been consistently saying. You agree with my logic on other issues, but not on this one. That's what feelings do to all of us. I'm not demeaning you, because I have feelings too and they sometimes distort my perception of things.

Maybe, but it's a bridge too far for me to say Israel can't defend themselves, even after acknowledging they have their own issues.

I've made it very clear I hold them individually responsible for what they have individually done. I'm not blaming the entire situation on Hamas or Israel, because that's irrational. I'm blaming Hamas only for what Hamas has done and I'm blaming Israel only for what Israel has done that is unnecessary. I hope that clarifies it for you. I operate on a case by case basis, not a blanket or categorical basis.

Then you shouldn't be comparing the two. And you have done that, multiple times.

I also don't think Hamas or Israel is evil. I think evil is a buzz word of propagandist used to justify inflicting unnecessary suffering and death on innocent people. That is always how it has been historically used. Look back at all of my posts in this thread and others to see that I'm being honest with you when I say I don't use or buy into the concept of evil.

Well, you do you. We won't agree here.

Hamas and other terrorists will never be removed until Israel stops inflicting unnecessary suffering and death on Palestinians just because they are Palestinians or unless Palestinians get their own, secure state which has the water, food and other resources they need to live. We won't the same thing, an end to Hamas and other terrorists. That will never happen as long as Israel continues to inflict unnecessary suffering and death on innocent people.

Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. Hamas probably won't be eradicated, but they do need to be removed from power at the very least. What needs to happen is for ordinary Palestinians to be empowered to govern themselves without the influence of Hamas and Hezbollah.

Israel doesn't have to keep killing as many innocent people as they are killing to achieve that goal.

Neither your nor I know that.

They didn't have to cut off the goods and resources that they did to millions of innocent people to achieve that goal.

Neither you or i actually know that.

They don't have bomb as many buildings as they are bombing to achieve that goal.

what i said already.

They didn't do any of that, because they have to.

That's your opinion.

Israel did all of that, because they can and they know they can get away with it. Tragically and sadly, they are right about that.

That's your opinion.

 

[LA - L.A.]

You specifically stated they are equally bad.

I specifically said that the unnecessary suffering and death they inflict is equally bad. I'm judging actions. You're judging people. I'm just trying to get you to understand what I'm actually saying. I'm not trying to get you to agree with me.

Maybe, but it's a bridge too far for me to say Israel can't defend themselves, even after acknowledging they have their own issues.

I've never said anything close to Israel can't defend themselves and I'm not trying to get you to say or agree Israel can't defend itself. The disagreement we have is not over whether or not Israel can defend itself. The disagreement is over if what Israel has done was truly necessary or not to defend themselves.

Then you shouldn't be comparing the two. And you have done that, multiple times.

Again, I've been comparing the actions of inflicting unnecessary suffering and death on innocent people, you're comparing people in a judgemental way. Those are different things. Unless you see that difference, you are going to keep misunderstanding what I'm actually saying.