Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

>>>>>>Israel doesn't have to keep killing as many innocent people as they are killing to achieve that goal.<<<<<<

"Neither you nor I know that."

Right

 

[DaveXA]

That's logically inconsistent on your part.

I disagree.

Not sorry, but yes. They most certainly are as I've explained over and over. I've asked before and crickets. Quote neutral military analysts that are saying that the scope and scale of Israel's bombing sorties are necessary for military advantage or Israel security.

I haven't researched quotes on this, so I don't know. We're a week into this and I'm not an expert on what's typical of prepping for a ground offensive, but this isn't all that different from other wars we've seen in the past. Doesn't make it right or wrong, but it is what it is. If I find something that fits what you're asking, I'll post it.

You want find any, because it's not true. They know Israel will rain PR hell down on them if they say it's not necessary, so they stay silent. That silence speaks volumes.

You might be right. We'll see.

Murdering some innocent people is equally as bad as murdering other innocent people if being objective. You are equivocating, the thing you falsely accuse me of doing.

Lol, no.

No, you're not hearing and understanding what I'm actually saying because you are blinded by your feelings.

Hamas and Israel are both tribes in regards to tribalism. One tribe being bigger than thee other or having a different social structure than the other, does not mean they are not tribes in regards to tribal mentality.

You've clearly stated they are both bad in the same way. Don't think I'm misunderstanding that.

I stand by everything I said too. What exactly is the point of saying that? I assume that everyone stands by what they say, so why make a point of letting it be known by saying it?

I was repeating myself, probably just a redundant comment from force of habit. Just restating a point a made earlier.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

.............................. The disagreement is over if what Israel has done was necessary or not to defend themselves.

Israel is there to take out Hamas, COMPLETELY. Israel is not there to stop the firing of a few rockets.

 

[DaveXA]

I specifically said that the unnecessary suffering and death they inflict is equally bad. I'm judging actions. You're judging people. I'm just trying to get you to understand what I'm actually saying. I'm not trying to get you to agree with me.

Actions and people performing them go hand in hand. You judge people by their actions, right?

I've never said anything close to Israel can't defend themselves and I'm not trying to get you to say or agree Israel can't defend itself. The disagreement we have is not over whether or not Israel can defend itself. The disagreement is over if what Israel has done was truly necessary or not to defend themselves.

That makes sense. And I've stated we probably disagree whether their actions are necessary or not.

Again, I've been comparing the actions of inflicting unnecessary suffering and death on innocent people, you're comparing people in a judgemental way. Those are different things. Unless you see that difference, you are going to keep misunderstanding what I'm actually saying.

Basically what I said in the first post about actions and people responsible for said actions.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

‘Supplies exhausted, doctors exhausted’: In Gaza, catastrophe looms large

With no aid in sight, medics sound alarm over public health disaster as hospitals are crammed and bodies pile up on.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

Actions and people performing them go hand in hand. You judge people by their actions, right?

Judging actions and holding people accountable for their actions does not require judging people as good or bad. Judging people as good or bad is almost always used to justify treating people unjustly and inhumanely. That's why I don't do it and think we should all stop doing it.

I'm against the death penalty for that exact reason. We can't kill our way to a better world. We, as a species, have been trying to kill our way to a better world and it just keeps us trapped on a murderous Merry-Go-Round.

That makes sense. And I've stated we probably disagree whether their actions are necessary or not.

We do disagree and I accept that. I just wanted to make sure you understood what I think.

Basically what I said in the first post about actions and people responsible for said actions.

I get that you see judging people and judging their actions as going hand in hand, being inseparable. I accept that you don't see it the way I do. Just want you understand that I do and that everything I've said is based on how I view it. Us having a different view on that is naturally going to lead to us having disagreements on this issue.

 

[LA - L.A.]

>>>>>>Israel doesn't have to keep killing as many innocent people as they are killing to achieve that goal.<<<<<<

"Neither you nor I know that."

Can you provide neutral military anaylysts who say it is?

With pretty much the whole world supporting Israel and saying Israel is justified in their actions, it's reasonable to think there would be a plethora of military analyst explaining that Israel's actions in Gaza are necessary for their military and/or security goals.

What are we actually hearing reported? The US , other countries, and the UN have been trying to get Israel to stop blocking the flow of goods and services that the millions of innocent people in Gaza need to survive. They have been trying to get Israel to be more discriminate with their bombing sorties. They are trying to get Israel to give more time to secure the safety of the millions of innocent people in Gaza.

It's reasonable to think the US, other countries and the UN wouldn't be trying to get Israel to make those concessions if they thought Israel needed to do everything they've been doing to accomplish their military and/or security goals.

And if one looks at if form a logistical, tactical and strategic point of view, it's reasonable to see the scope and scale of what Israel has done as extremely disproportionate, unnecessary, and counter-productive in the long term, towards achieving their publicly stated goals and objectives.

I may not be right and as you said neither one of us knows for sure, but what I think is reasonable to think, given everything we do know.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Do you really think that there can be a competent military analysis of a war that's only a week old?

However, it doesn't look like the US has a problem with it:

U.S. Helps Israel Defend Against Hamas Attacks

The United States is surging support to Israel, a senior defense official said, including air defense capabilities and munitions, and is also bolstering U.S. presence in the region.

www.defense.gov

"Austin spoke to Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant on Saturday and Sunday. Austin is getting operational updates and learning what equipment and capabilities Israel needs to defend itself, the official said.

The United States is "surging" support to Israel, including air defense capabilities and munitions. "We remain in constant, ongoing contact with our counterparts in Israel to determine, and then support, their most urgent requirements," the official said. "The bottom line is we are working as fast as possible to provide critically needed munitions of various types and other equipment."

Defense Department officials are also working with U.S. industry to expedite the shipment of military equipment that the Israelis had already ordered. "We're also working across the DOD enterprise, including with U.S. Central Command, to assess what munitions and other equipment are in U.S. inventories that we can be made, that can be made quickly available to Israel," the official said."

 

[J-DONK]

Israel is there to take out Hamas, COMPLETELY. Israel is not there to stop the firing of a few rockets.

This is true in a vacuum, but you will never get rid of Hamas without completely getting rid of the Palestinians living in Gaza. The end game is the relocation of the entire population somewhere else. Israel will never get them rights, or a respectful way of life. It's eerily similar to the German ghettos of WW2.

I have no idea why some of you keep defending Israel. They are not good guys. This is not hard.

 

[LA - L.A.]

This is true in a vacuum, but you will never get rid of Hamas without completely getting rid of the Palestinians living in Gaza. The end game is the relocation of the entire population somewhere else. Israel will never get them rights, or a respectful way of life. It's eerily similar to the German ghettos of WW2.

I have no idea why some of you keep defending Israel. They are not good guys. This is not hard.

I agree and not seeing Israeli leadership as not being good guys does not equal seeing Hamas as good guys. It's not an either or proposition, both can be bad and both are bad.

If people want to understand how I see it in spoken word with tone and inflection that makes it clear what my sentiment is, then watch the serious open to Last Week Tonight with Jon Oliver from this past Sunday. I've looked, but can find any clips of it to link to. I do want to share this quote from the segment from an article about it:

He played an interview between CNN’s Jake Tapper and Noi Katzman, whose brother Chaim was killed last weekend in the Hamas terrorist attacks. Katzman ended his interview by saying he didn’t want his brother’s death to “be used to kill innocent people. … I don’t want anything to happen to people in Gaza like what happened to my brother, and I’m sure he wouldn’t have any either. So that’s my call to my government to stop killing innocent people. And that’s not the way that brings us peace and security to people in Israel.”

John Oliver Addresses Israel-Hamas War in Serious Moment at Start of ‘Last Week Tonight’: “The Immense Suffering Has Been Sickening to Watch”

"Peace is not optional and will require some tough decisions," he said, calling on leaders to not retaliate. "And I can't say where a peace process ends, but it just has to start with that kind of ability to recognize our common humanity."

www.hollywoodreporter.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

Do you really think that there can be a competent military analysis of a war that's only a week old?

Yes. It happened starting on day one in Ukraine and hasn't stopped since then. The same military analysts have a good feel for the necessity and effectiveness of Israel's tactics. Unlike with Ukraine, they've remained silent on explaining the goals and effectiveness of Israel's tactics. It's been crickets, which is unusual for a conflict that is getting so much headline reporting.

However, it doesn't look like the US has a problem with it:

U.S. Helps Israel Defend Against Hamas Attacks

The United States is surging support to Israel, a senior defense official said, including air defense capabilities and munitions, and is also bolstering U.S. presence in the region.

www.defense.gov

"Austin spoke to Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant on Saturday and Sunday. Austin is getting operational updates and learning what equipment and capabilities Israel needs to defend itself, the official said.

The United States is "surging" support to Israel, including air defense capabilities and munitions. "We remain in constant, ongoing contact with our counterparts in Israel to determine, and then support, their most urgent requirements," the official said. "The bottom line is we are working as fast as possible to provide critically needed munitions of various types and other equipment."

Defense Department officials are also working with U.S. industry to expedite the shipment of military equipment that the Israelis had already ordered. "We're also working across the DOD enterprise, including with U.S. Central Command, to assess what munitions and other equipment are in U.S. inventories that we can be made, that can be made quickly available to Israel," the official said."

I read the entire article. Austin says the US will support and supply Israel to defend itself which is very different from supporting and supplying Israel to "take out Hamas, COMPLETELY." Austin says they are there to help Israel defend itself and you say that defending itself is not Israel's goal, so what Austin said is at odds with what you have said.

Austin does not say anything about what the US thinks about the scope and scale of bombing sorties into Gaza by Israel. He emphasizes that one of the main goals of the US presence is in the region is to make sure no other parties get into the fight to exploit or escalate the conflict.

It's been reported that some of the equipment that the US is rushing to Israel is munitions to replenish their Iron Dome. That's a good thing, because it's an effective defensive weapons system and it can't be used to kill innocent people in Gaza. I'm hoping most of the US support is intelligence and weapons systems that will lead to more precise and discriminate attacks inside Gaza, so that the rate at which innocent people are being killed inside of Gaza significantly decreases.

The US has asked Israel to stop blocking goods and resources going into Gaza, and to give more time to move the innocent out of harms way, so clearly they don't see those tactics that inflict suffering and death on innocent people in Gaza as necessary for Israel to defend itself, which according to Austin is the purpose of US support to Israel.

 

[samiam5211]

Hamas doesn't want a two state solution. They never have.

Neither does Bibi. He never has.

 

[DaveXA]

Judging actions and holding people accountable for their actions does not require judging people as good or bad. Judging people as good or bad is almost always used to justify treating people unjustly and inhumanely. That's why I don't do it and think we should all stop doing it.

When you look violence and injustice in the face, there's always someone behind it. Good/bad/evil or whatever, we can't divorce the individual from the action, otherwise, how would the law be applied to those who break it?

I'm against the death penalty for that exact reason. We can't kill our way to a better world. We, as a species, have been trying to kill our way to a better world and it just keeps us trapped on a murderous Merry-Go-Round.

The reasoning is understandable, but there are still consequences for actions. I oppose the death penalty, not because it's not deserved, but because of the potential for someone innocent being put to death. But fundamentally, there are consequences for actions, and sometimes death is the appropriate consequence.

We do disagree and I accept that. I just wanted to make sure you understood what I think.

Fair enough.

I get that you see judging people and judging their actions as going hand in hand, being inseparable. I accept that you don't see it the way I do. Just want you understand that I do and that everything I've said is based on how I view it. Us having a different view on that is naturally going to lead to us having disagreements on this issue.

I can respect that. I see where you're coming from.

 

[DaveXA]

This is true in a vacuum, but you will never get rid of Hamas without completely getting rid of the Palestinians living in Gaza. The end game is the relocation of the entire population somewhere else. Israel will never get them rights, or a respectful way of life. It's eerily similar to the German ghettos of WW2.

I have no idea why some of you keep defending Israel. They are not good guys. This is not hard.

I will just state that Israel has already made it clear they're not interested in occupying Gaza, and wants Palestinians to be self-governing when they return to Gaza after Hamas is removed from power and destroyed. I don't doubt a lot of Palestinians won't be happy about that, but they have to be a part of the solution too and supporting groups like Hamas and Hezbollah is untenable. There will never be peace with actors who's goal is the wholesale destruction of Israel and don't recognize their right to exist.

Good or bad or whatever you want to call them, Israel remains an ally to the US

I want justice for Palestinians, and a free, independent Gaza should be the end goal for Palestinians there. I support a 2 state solution, but not without security guarantees for both Israel and the new Palestinian state.

Whether that's Gaza, West Bank and/or Golan Heights, all of it, or parts of it, idk. There needs to be a centralized government that can make decisions for all Palestinians.

 

[DaveXA]

Hamas doesn't want a two state solution. They never have.

No they certainly don't. Their movement is fundamentally opposed to Israel existing at all.

Neither does Bibi. He never has.

There are many Israelis who support a 2 state solution, and likewise Palestinians. Most Israelis are decidedly not as ultra-nationalizt as Bibi. More than a few want him out of office. Similar can be said about Palestinians as opposed to Hamas.

 

[samiam5211]

No they certainly don't. Their movement is fundamentally opposed to Israel existing at all.

There are many Israelis who support a 2 state solution, and likewise Palestinians. Most Israelis are decidedly not as ultra-nationalizt as Bibi. More than a few want him out of office. Similar can be said about Palestinians as opposed to Hamas.

For sure. There are plenty of people in Israel who are much more moderate than Bibi. There have been plenty of protests against him in the past week.

That doesn't change the fact that Bibi doesn't want a two state solution any more than Hamas does.

 

[DaveXA]

For sure. There are plenty of people in Israel who are much more moderate than Bibi. There have been plenty of protests against him in the past week.

That doesn't change the fact that Bibi doesn't want a two state solution any more than Hamas does.

It doesn't, but it could mean he might not be for long and maybe a better chance at something that looks like a 2 state solution down the road. We sort of are where we are right now and not much will go right until Bibi and the ultra-nationalists and Hamas/Hezbollah are out of power.

 

[Huntn]

I don't see a war crime there yet, nor have I heard anyone with the proper credentials say that Israel has committed one. We'll see as time goes on. Unfortunately, it's likely to get uglier.

What number of collateral damage will it take?

FFS






That's NOT attacking Hamas.

That's attacking Israel's future. As shirt like that is going motivate future hate for Israel, with it's leader's feigning they can't understand the rage of the Palestinians towards them.
israel: “Why do the Palestinians hate us?“
(borrowed from another source online)

It has been claimed from several sources that Nietinyahu was warned in advance about this attack, by several countries and instead went on vacation. I would not be surprised if his attitude was “let them, then we have justification to destroy them, all of them.”