Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[DaveXA]

This is huge, and awesome:

I'm seeing conflicting reports on this. I'm not sure what's what. There was agreement, no agreement, agreement again...and the crossing is completely closed with concrete wills being installed to completely shut off the crossing.

 

[samiam5211]

I’m not sure why Israel assumes Hamas plans to stay back and fight.

Why wouldn’t they just blend in and escape? There’s not any chance Hamas would defeat Israel, and they know that.

I could see Egypt worried about a situiation where people whose security they are responsible for being accused of being Hamas by Israel. They need to figure out what to do about that beforehand.

 

[DaveXA]

I’m not sure why Israel assumes Hamas plans to stay back and fight.

Why wouldn’t they just blend in and escape? There’s not any chance Hamas would defeat Israel, and they know that.

I could see Egypt worried about a situiation where people whose security they are responsible for being accused of being Hamas by Israel. They need to figure out what to do about that beforehand.

Agreed. The migration is gonna be a mess. And I don't think Israel assumes that. They know some will stay and fight while others flee. This is all a mess and I don't see it getting resolved anytime soon.

 

[Huntn]

When one believes in God, and in Satan, they finally begin to understand how and why Israel and its Jews have been the most persecuted segment of humanity in all of human history.

What do you mean exactly regarding God and Satan?

 

[Huntn]

Going after a terrorist organization whose only desire is to eliminate you isn't a war crime. The densely populated combat zone that this is playing out in will, and is, create/creating huge numbers of civilian casualties. Unfortunately, civilian casualties are common in combat zones. I started posting in this thread by asking the question, how long will the world allow Israel to fight a war in a theater that is going to cost so many civilian lives? My question still very much stands.

Do I understand Israel's position? Yes. Is it tragic for the people of Gaza and do I feel for them? Without question. It's probably the worst war that I've closely observed in that regard. It's horrific. But, it's where we're at. So, considering that's where we're at, what now?

Yes it is a war crime if you abuse 1 million Palestinians in the process. Btw, Palestinians who have been abused over the last 70 years in the name of Israel’s security.

In my view the Israelis went from oppressed to oppressors when they were attacked frequently, hence an extremely poor choice for a homeland*. They faced war almost immediately. From then on in “our security mode”, they have oppressed the Palestinians to keep themselves secure and they have refused to address the Palestinian’s situation, which has become, “sorry this is your lot in life, so we can be safe”, not realizing, not caring, or thinking there is no other option for their security. They tossed the idea of a two State solution. This all goes back to the location of the Jewish State, a dreadful error that insured decades of strife, and death.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state

 

[Huntn]

Oof...

This is extremely sad. Clearly not all Israelis, are on the same page on how to peacefully coexist with their neighbors. It can be stated under the premise of zero context, Hamas commited this heinous act, so fork you Palestinians, you are all going to pay by 100 fold and we are justified in becoming war criminals in our own rights.

 

[Huntn]

I think you are overly generous when you say that the Brits couldn't control the violence. Jews who would be Israeli founders employed terrorists tactics against the Brits because they tried to restrict more Jewish immigration. The irony is that Jews were buying lands from Palestinians, who were willing to sell them but the Brits began imposing restrictions to sales because of the boiling animosity. I mean, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, right? I find this to be at the heart of Israeli PR in the West as they do not want Hamas or the PLA to be labeled as freedom fighters (queue that ADL ceo clip). With this crisis, Hamas really shot themselves in the foot. I always find Gandhi and MLK's use of passive resistance to be generally more effective against a much more powerful force (the West's backing of Israel). Nibble at the moral consciousness of the oppressor or it's enabler. Really, the Palestinians tried with very little success the forceful/terrorist tactic before with the PLA when practically every Arab country supported it. How does Hamas expect a different result today when most Arab countries are pretty much done with this issue? This attack now effectively closed every door to any moral high ground. It could be easily argued that Israel's blockade of the Gaza (yeah Egypt's also a part of it) is a form of concentration/internment camp, which is a human rights violation, and how Israel's hard turn to the right along with taking more Palestinian West bank lands paints Israel as the aggressor.

Nothing good will come out of this crisis. It's times like this is when we reflect on what could have been. Rabin's assassination by an ultranationalist israeli who thought the PM was giving too much land to the Palestinians has damaged much of the peace process. And whether you believe it's arafat or the israeli who ultimately declined any deal, neither side view the other as human. It's all tragic.

Anyway, the historical context of how Israel was formed is moot now. We have approximately 6 million Jews there. That will not change. Despite giving them 12 billion annually (? I forget what Obama's final figure was) we really don't have much sway with Israel because Israel's lobby is just that strong in the US. How often does Netanyahu raise a middle finger to a US president? All we can do is hopefully contain the Israeli anger and minimize civilian casualties with what say we have, whether they support Hamas or not. After all, do we advocate killing in the name of ideology? We don't want maga or liberals to die because of their beliefs. Let's be human here and not put weights on innocent lives (general plea here and not pointing at anyone in case someone comes at me).

PS. I want to remind folks that there are ultraorthodox Jews who run around Israel killing Palestinians, and is immediately released if caught or reported. Though not on the scale of Hamas, but still a routine occurrence. The point is that there are extremist elements on each sides and we don't blame the entire group.

Israeli settler accused of involvement in killing of Palestinian moved to house arrest

A Jerusalem court says that an Israeli settler suspected of involvement in the killing a 19-year-old Palestinian man in the West Bank last week has been released from detention and transferred to house arrest.

apnews.com

In my view the Israelis went from oppressed to oppressors when they were attacked frequently, hence an extremely poor choice for a homeland*. They faced war almost immediately. From then on in “our security mode”, they have oppressed the Palestinians to keep themselves secure and they have refused to address the Palestinian’s situation, which has become, “sorry this is your lot in life, so we can be safe”, not realizing, not caring, or thinking there is no other option for their security. They tossed the idea of a two State solution. This all goes back to the location of the Jewish State, a dreadful error that insured decades of strife, and death.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Yes it is a war crime if you abuse 1 million Palestinians in the process........................

How is Israel giving a million Palestinian civilians a warning and suggesting they go to a safer place before Israel crosses the border with their troops, a war crime?

 

[MT15]

Here comes the propagandist with his same old playbook

 

[Huntn]

How is Israel giving a million Palestinian civilians a warning and suggesting they go to a safer place before Israel crosses the border with their troops, a war crime?

It’s been stated numerous times that evacuating 1M people with limited avenues of escape in 24 hrs is an impossible task. How many Palestinians have already been killed? We’ll see how many more are killed officially as collateral.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

It’s been stated numerous times that evacuating 1M people with limited avenues of escape in 24 hrs is an impossible task. ..........................................

I don't see a war crime there yet, nor have I heard anyone with the proper credentials say that Israel has committed one. We'll see as time goes on. Unfortunately, it's likely to get uglier.

 

[MT15]

 

[MT15]

 

[DaveXA]

Good, need to keep his feet to the fire.

 

[UriUT]

What Was Hamas Thinking?

One of the group’s senior political leaders explains its strategy.

www.newyorker.com

Interesting read.
A few points:
1. The military wing of Hamas didn't share plans for the attack with their political leaders.
2. They purposely lull the Israeli into a cooperation agreement, even standing by while Israel wiped out ally commanders. They prevented militant civilians from attacking israel.
3. The confusion of the initial assaults resulted in supposedly disciplined Israeli troops to retreat and not resisted.
4. Reasoning behind the attacks...Israeli government was too far right, and settler attacks became more vicious and often....

 

[UriUT]

I don't see a war crime there yet, nor have I heard anyone with the proper credentials say that Israel has committed one. We'll see as time goes on. Unfortunately, it's likely to get uglier.

Collective punishment. When the food and water run out, this will get worse.

Article 33 of the Geneva convention.

 

[V Chip]

About 80% of the people who currently live in Gaza we're of voting age when Hamas was elected.

Was this supposed to say "About 80% of the people who currently live in Gaza weren't of voting age when Hamas was elected."

 

[MT15]

Was this supposed to say "About 80% of the people who currently live in Gaza weren't of voting age when Hamas was elected."

Yes, I’m sure that is what was meant. I don’t think it matters anyway because I don’t think it was a free and fair election. I read that opponents were sometimes thrown off buildings. Do that a few times and your opposition just dries up.