Israel vs Hamas (4 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[Incumbent]

Am I reading this right? September 13th of this year? These guys knew about the attacks a month ago!!!!! Wow!!!! To think Egypt warned Netanyahu 3 days before the attacks.

It's a bad look, but there's also this.

RTX Expects Even More Demand in the Next Year to Replenish Missiles Sent to Ukraine

RTX officials expect $2.5 billion in orders over the next 12 months to replenish U.S. weapons provided to Ukraine.

www.airandspaceforces.com

 

[UriUT]

The unknown proximity to this is true for all of us. There's probably much that Sam and I agree about on this but formulating the conclusion that Biden should be arrested for war crimes is exactly the kind of absurd overreaction that is problematic in reasonable discourse. He can say it, and you can be fine with it, but I think it should be challenged.

Right, that's what he believes, and your replies is what you believe. Your tact is a bit less compared to the post specifically that I replied; it seemingly dismisses Samian's views.

 

[UriUT]

It's a bad look, but there's also this.

RTX Expects Even More Demand in the Next Year to Replenish Missiles Sent to Ukraine

RTX officials expect $2.5 billion in orders over the next 12 months to replenish U.S. weapons provided to Ukraine.

www.airandspaceforces.com

But we all have this knowledge that Ukraine will get aid, correct?

 

[DaveXA]

I think they had the moral high ground up until a few days ago. IMO they have already burned through it.

I hope that there is some sort of line where if Israel crosses it, the moral high ground is used up that other people have, even if it is not the same as my line.

Oh, I think there's definitely a line. I'm not sure where it is, but if they proceed with a ground offensive in Gaza, the citizens need to be given passage out of Gaza before that happens. I'm not going to support Israel if they don't make a good faith effort to get as many Palestinians as possible out before that ground offensive.

 

[Incumbent]

Already over 6000 bombs dropped on Gaza and what little food water and electricity they have has been cut off.

My line is was somewhere before that.

Which doesn't establish what you think the response should have been. Nothing? 2,000 bombs but not a bomb more? Ground combat, which is slow, tedious, and almost always leads to higher casualties?

I'm neither condoning nor celebrating the actions taken by Israel, but rather just trying to understand them in the real world we live in, and trying to do that without leaping to outlandish conclusions in the first few days of what is transpiring.

Our disagreement is primarily your claim that Biden is a war criminal because the U.S. has stepped up its presence in the Middle East.

 

[DaveXA]

There's a clear distinction between his arguments and from what someone like Glenn Greenwald or those who follows and parrots them. We don't know Samian's proximity to this conflict. His level of tolerance to the needless deaths is different from you and I. I think lecturing him is without merit.

I don't know about lecturing, but calling the President a complicit war criminal at this point is a rash take and will definitely get the push back it did. It's the rash comments I take issue with. His other comments I actually agree with to an extent.

 

[samiam5211]

Which doesn't establish what you think the response should have been. Nothing? 2,000 bombs but not a bomb more? Ground combat, which is slow, tedious, and almost always leads to higher casualties?

I'm neither condoning nor celebrating the actions taken by Israel, but rather just trying to understand them in the real world we live in, and trying to do that without leaping to outlandish conclusions in the first few days of what is transpiring.

Our disagreement is primarily your claim that Biden is a war criminal because the U.S. has stepped up its presence in the Middle East.

I think cutting off food, water and electricity to Gaza is a war crime.

Biden has given full support to Israel, and not suggested that they should not cut off food, water, and electricity. I think that makes him complicit.

If Biden is telling them to cut the water on behind the scenes, then he should be saying that in public.

 

[Incumbent]

But we all have this knowledge that Ukraine will get aid, correct?

I'm no financial wizard but I would think that an anticipated $2.5 billion more in orders will be good for Raytheon stock. What is unseemly are these kinds of transactions involving members of congress. I'm not sure what the answers are.

 

[Incumbent]

I think cutting off food, water and electricity to Gaza is a war crime.

Biden has given full support to Israel, and not suggested that they should not cut off food, water, and electricity. I think that makes him complicit.

If Biden is telling them to cut the water on behind the scenes, then he should be saying that in public.

I already understood it wasn't a compelling, well-formed opinion.

I think your answer - at least the best I can come up with - is that Israel shouldn't have responded with military force at all. Once they did, I think the supply of food, water, and fuel was inevitably going to be disrupted and, having already asked you this, I'm not sure what the logistical challenges are now, in getting those supplies in, and how that can be accomplished. Do you know?

 

[UriUT]

I'm no financial wizard but I would think that an anticipated $2.5 billion more in orders will be good for Raytheon stock. What is unseemly are these kinds of transactions involving members of congress. I'm not sure what the answers are.

I can't believe I'm defending a Republican here. It would be advantageous to him if we all thought Ukraine wouldn't get aid so there wouldn't be a need for Raytheon's products. And he invests with knowledge that a bill was in the works that contradicts public knowledge. That would drive prices up when that bill becomes public...ergo he makes a profit.

The problem is that we all know Ukraine will get aid and Raytheon makes those.

And I want to stress that I have zero problems restricting Congress from trading stocks. Although there are counter arguments...but that's tangential.

 

[DaveXA]

I think cutting off food, water and electricity to Gaza is a war crime.

Biden has given full support to Israel, and not suggested that they should not cut off food, water, and electricity. I think that makes him complicit.

If Biden is telling them to cut the water on behind the scenes, then he should be saying that in public.

I hear what you're saying. I would be inclined to give Biden and others involved in this more time to figure this out. I acknowledge Palestinians in Gaza don't have the luxury of time with necessities cut off but it's where they are now. It's definitely problematic. I don't support cutting off those necessities, and hope it's lifted sooner rather than later.

 

[Incumbent]

I can't believe I'm defending a Republican here. It would be advantageous to him if we all thought Ukraine wouldn't get aid so there wouldn't be a need for Raytheon's products. And he invests with knowledge that a bill was in the works that contradicts public knowledge. That would drive prices up when that bill becomes public...ergo he makes a profit.

The problem is that we all know Ukraine will get aid and Raytheon makes those.

And I want to stress that I have zero problems restricting Congress from trading stocks. Although there are counter arguments...but that's tangential.

I don't think the stock transaction necessarily indicates that he, or congresss, knew the terrorist attack was coming, without other evidence. That's my only point.

 

[MT15]

Am I reading this right? September 13th of this year? These guys knew about the attacks a month ago!!!!! Wow!!!! To think Egypt warned Netanyahu 3 days before the attacks.

Not only that, at least one stock service is listing Raytheon as a “buy” anyway. So trying to discern a big conspiracy here is somewhat tenuous.

 

[UriUT]

I don't think the stock transaction necessarily indicates that he, or congresss, knew the terrorist attack was coming, without other evidence. That's my only point.

My mistake. I misunderstood.

 

[Incumbent]

My mistake. I misunderstood.

Same.

 

[MT15]

I'm no financial wizard but I would think that an anticipated $2.5 billion more in orders will be good for Raytheon stock. What is unseemly are these kinds of transactions involving members of congress. I'm not sure what the answers are.

When the stock rating services list a company as “undervalued” or a “buy” any competent portfolio manager would be justified making that purchase for a client. As long as his portfolio is managed independently for him, I am not seeing the problem.

 

[el caliente]

Do you think he knew this raid was going to happen? Do you think the stock went up in the past month?

Am I reading this right? September 13th of this year? These guys knew about the attacks a month ago!!!!! Wow!!!! To think Egypt warned Netanyahu 3 days before the attacks.

I’m betting that dollars to donuts that a member of the his committee had information well in advance, and so he hedged his bet.

 

[MT15]

I don't think the stock transaction necessarily indicates that he, or congresss, knew the terrorist attack was coming, without other evidence. That's my only point.

That’s what el and his folks he follows are implying though. They list every single trade on a dashboard online and list them all as “insider trades”. I’m not sure what the point of it all is, except to further discredit the US government. Which seems to be a common theme among the right wing these days.