Israel vs Hamas (1 Viewer)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[Incumbent]

Like I said, it doesn't take much thought to realize that more children have been killed in the past week in Gaza than were killed in Israel last weekend.

That wasn't the discussion we were having, but in reducing this to such a simple, but tragic, observation, at least don't disconnect the deaths of the children in Gaza this week from the deaths of those children in Israel. It's all hard to accept. It's all devastating. I hate that innocent people are paying a price for terrorism, and for the long history of inhumanity that plagues the region.

 

[samiam5211]

And what step have the Gazans taken??? They have to do their part to protect their children and as much as I want to see their suffering end, they have to take measures into their own hand and if they choose to allow Hamas to keep them trapped in this circle then they are also complicit in what happens to their children next.

About 80% of the people who currently live in Gaza weren’t of voting age when Hamas was elected.

 

[samiam5211]

That wasn't the discussion we were having, but in reducing this to such a simple, but tragic, observation, at least don't disconnect the deaths of the children in Gaza this week from the deaths of those children in Israel. It's all hard to accept. It's all devastating. I hate that innocent people are paying a price for terrorism, and for the long history of inhumanity that plagues the region.

I don't value dead Israeli kids over dead Palestinian kids. They are each exactly the same.

There are now more dead Palestinian kids than Israeli kids, and that is only about to get much worse.

Our government didn't support Hamas killing kids, our government is supporting the actions that lead to the dead Palestinian kids.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

About 80% of the people who currently live in Gaza we're of voting age when Hamas was elected.

So they are still within fighting age now!

 

[samiam5211]

So they are still within fighting age now!

There are more people under the age of 10 in Gaza than over the age of 35

 

[DaveXA]

I don't value dead Israeli kids over dead Palestinian kids. They are each exactly the same.

There are now more dead Palestinian kids than Israeli kids, and that is only about to get much worse.

Our government didn't support Hamas killing kids, our government is supporting the actions that lead to the dead Palestinian kids.

You keep saying this as if it were confirmed facts when we don't have actual verified numbers. They are valued the same, but their circumstances unfortunately aren't the same.

Unfortunately, not enough Palestinians have stood up to the injustices of Hamas and called them out for perpetrating terror in their name. Until they depose Hamas, they will continue to be led the way they have.

Our government is looking for a way to get them out of Gaza before a ground offensive. They're initially supporting Israel because they're an ally. Israel will be given some leeway and they've taken advantage of that. The question will be when is enough enough? That remains to be seen.

 

[Incumbent]

I don't value dead Israeli kids over dead Palestinian kids. They are each exactly the same.

There are now more dead Palestinian kids than Israeli kids, and that is only about to get much worse.

Our government didn't support Hamas killing kids, our government is supporting the actions that lead to the dead Palestinian kids.

In a perfect world, problems would be solved some other way. We don't live in that world. If you could express, at all, what you think Israel's response should have been, I might better understand where you are coming from. As it is, it seems entirely to be a philosophical belief about two harms that is as beautiful in its aspirations as it is impractical.

 

[Lapaz]

There isn’t anyone stepping up to take them. Egypt has refused. Where should they go?

It’s awful and I hate it. I did hear some Israeli reps today on TV saying they understand they need to minimize civilian casualties. Explaining what they do with the rocket strikes - they hit the building with an unarmed missile - they had a term for it, like thumping - to let the people inside know to get out before they actually bring the building down. They send SMS alerts and broadcast warnings as well.

I don’t know what can be done. It’s so disheartening.

Since Israel is going to bomb and/or level Gaza, it should be Israel that gives them refuge. It will take more than 24 hours to evacuate Gaza. They will have to search everyone, and get cooperation from the population to ensure they aren't allowing any of the terrorists to enter. I think this will take about a week. Once they've cleared the country of innocents, then they can go destroy all of the weapons and kill the remaining fighters. Then Palestinians will need to vote in a new government, and agree to Israel's terms of existence and safety. There is no need to immediately start bombing. Israel needs to keep their moral superiority.

 

[Lapaz]

Possibly, but the blame is squarely on Hamas for putting Palestinians in harm's way. This is exactly their m.o. and they're telling people in Gaza to stay in their homes. They don't want to give away their leverage by allowing them to evacuate south.

I don't support cutting off food, electricity and water to civilians, but again the blame lies squarely on Hamas for the massacre of over 1000 people when this started.

Yes.

You're off your rocker.

Israel doesn't have to act inhumane. They can provide refuge for all of the innocent Palestinians. It would only have to be temporary, but it would be brutality to kill vast numbers of innocent people. Israel may not be beheading babies, but bombs will kill babies just as brutally. If they didn't have any other way, then I would understand, but they do have another way. Egypt doesn't have a dog in this fight, so they shouldn't be expected to bear the brunt. We can provide whatever assistance Israel needs to wipe out Hamas, not the Palestinian people.

 

[Incumbent]

Israel doesn't have to act inhumane. They can provide refuge for all of the innocent Palestinians. It would only have to be temporary, but it would be brutality to kill vast numbers of innocent people. Israel may not be beheading babies, but bombs will kill babies just as brutally. If they didn't have any other way, then I would understand, but they do have another way. Egypt doesn't have a dog in this fight, so they shouldn't be expected to bear the brunt. We can provide whatever assistance Israel needs to wipe out Hamas, not the Palestinian people.

The population of the Gaza Strip exceeds two million people. I don't think what you're describing is feasible and I don't know how Israel could differentiate between Hamas and its backers and everybody else. Allow hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to cross into Israel after the terrorist attack last saturday? That's not going to happen.

Israel seems to have two options now:

-Cease operations, with Hamas still intact and in power

-Create safety zones in Gaza and take other precautions in an effort to minimize civilian casualties

 

[samiam5211]

You keep saying this as if it were confirmed facts when we don't have actual verified numbers. They are valued the same, but their circumstances unfortunately aren't the same.

Unfortunately, not enough Palestinians have stood up to the injustices of Hamas and called them out for perpetrating terror in their name. Until they depose Hamas, they will continue to be led the way they have.

Our government is looking for a way to get them out of Gaza before a ground offensive. They're initially supporting Israel because they're an ally. Israel will be given some leeway and they've taken advantage of that. The question will be when is enough enough? That remains to be seen.

They have no reason to think anything that Hamas is saying about Israel isn't true.

I put 100% of the onus on Israel. They are immeasurably more powerful than Hams, they have the unequivocal support of the US. They could wipe out everyone in Gaza anytime they want.

Israel didn't even bother asking the UN to help do something about Hamas after the attack, they just started bombing at a higher rate than anything we've seen in Ukraine from Russia in a far more densely populated area than anywhere in Ukraine.

Instead, in addition to the bombing they have cut off basic supplies that people need to survive to a population that has more children per capita than any other population on the planet.

I don't need to design an alternate response for Israel to say that this response is unacceptable.

I shouldn't have to say that Hamas attack on Israel was unacceptable, because that is obvious. I have never defended Hamas.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

....................................................

Israel didn't even bother asking the UN to help do something about Hamas after the attack,................

What good would that have done?

 

[samiam5211]

What good would that have done?

You're right.

Killing Palestinian children and cutting off their food and water was the only option Israel had left.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

The population of the Gaza Strip exceeds two million people. I don't think what you're describing is feasible and I don't know how Israel could differentiate between Hamas and its backers and everybody else. Allow hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to cross into Israel after the terrorist attack last saturday? That's not going to happen.

Israel seems to have two options now:

-Cease operations, with Hamas still intact and in power

-Create safety zones in Gaza and take other precautions in an effort to minimize civilian casualties

"Create safety zones in Gaza and take other precautions in an effort to minimize civilian casualties"

Their trying to do that by telling them to leave northern Gaza and move to the south.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

You're right.

Killing Palestinian children and cutting off their food and water was the only option Israel had left.

Apparently you didn't understand what I said. I said what good would contacting the UN about Hamas have done?

 

[Incumbent]

"Create safety zones in Gaza and take other precautions in an effort to minimize civilian casualties"

Their trying to do that by telling them to leave northern Gaza and move to the south.

Yeah, I know, which is the point I was framing. It's either take the approach they are taking or cease operations. Not to suggest there can't be variations of either of those approaches, but that's essentially what it's down to.

 

[DaveXA]

Israel doesn't have to act inhumane. They can provide refuge for all of the innocent Palestinians. It would only have to be temporary, but it would be brutality to kill vast numbers of innocent people. Israel may not be beheading babies, but bombs will kill babies just as brutally. If they didn't have any other way, then I would understand, but they do have another way. Egypt doesn't have a dog in this fight, so they shouldn't be expected to bear the brunt. We can provide whatever assistance Israel needs to wipe out Hamas, not the Palestinian people.

And where do propose they put them in Israel? I don't really know the lay of the land there, but you gotta put 1.5-2 million+ people somewhere. I don't think Israel has the capacity or ability to move that many people. Egypt clearly can. They have the space and the US and others can provide all the temporary housing and logistics necessary so as to not burden Egypt. But they are a sovereign country and we would need their permission and some level of cooperation.

If there were a way for Israel to house them temporarily and they're willing to do it, we can help with the logistics and housing needed while Israel handles clearing out Gaza.

I mean, I'm open to ideas.

 

[samiam5211]

Apparently you didn't understand what I said. I said what good would contacting the UN about Hamas have done?

Oh I understood your question.

I also understood that you know there is really no way to know.

You only asked it because you are all in on defending Israel's actions.