Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

Iraq has WMD propaganda was easily spread by the media and politicians.

I hardly call that propaganda, the was a presentation presented to the world based off of actual evidence that was manipulated to achieve a desired result. What we are seeing from the Twitterverse and other social media outlets are just outright LIES with intention to dupe its followers for the LIKES.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

Less than a month before the attack, a Biden administration watchdog warned that there was not enough transparency surrounding the influx of funding that Biden approved for Palestinians starting when he took office in 2021.

The inspector general for the U.S. Agency for International Development raised concerns in a report last month that USAID officials had not properly accounted for the risks of providing aid in Gaza and the West Bank since Biden took office, including the risk of giving money to local groups that have ties to terrorism.

Among the problems identified by other international aid organizations was that local groups in Palestinian areas “are at risk of being designated as terrorist organizations” by the Israeli government. Other aid organizations and countries chose not to use those groups as local partners in their foreign aid projects, according to the report.

But a USAID official told the inspector general that “such restrictions reduce the number of potential partners available to the mission.”

The Biden administration appears to have given money to several groups with links to terrorism in Gaza and the West Bank, two territories entirely or partially under Palestinian control. Hamas controls the government in Gaza, while the Palestinian Authority governs in the Palestinian enclaves of the West Bank.

It took a week, but I see the right-wing media mafia has gotten their shirt together!

 

[Incumbent]

And where do propose they put them in Israel? I don't really know the lay of the land there, but you gotta put 1.5-2 million+ people somewhere. I don't think Israel has the capacity or ability to move that many people.

Even if Israel could manage the logistics of that, the social tensions would be too great, given everything leading up to now. It would be a nightmare of safety concerns for all involved.

 

[DaveXA]

Do you know what happened to those who fled the fighting in 1968 ? People who owned land and houses in what is now part of Israel?


There is a reason why the neighboring contries does not want the palestinian refugees. Israel will not allow them back again

I'm aware of that. So I guess they can risk it and stay in Gaza then? What do you propose?

Fwiw, whatever agreement they come up with, it would have to allow for citizens to return to Gaza after the war ends. It has to be ironclad and Israel would need to allow that to happen. The US has the leverage to make it happen.

 

[DaveXA]

Even if Israel could manage the logistics of that, the social tensions would be too great, given everything leading up to now. It would be a nightmare of safety concerns for all involved.

Right, I'm not seeing Palestinians wanting to be in that situation any more than Israelis do.

 

[SaintForLife]

Very interesting thread. Not sure if its been posted already.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Israeli's goal is not about killing Palestinian civilians in Gaza. Will it happen? Without question. Does Israel know that? Of course, that is the nature of this combat zone, but, Israel would like nothing more than to be able to fight Hamas and only Hamas.

Tell that to the Rueters and BBC journalists.

By the way, another universal trait of fascism, violent assaults against a free press.

The current Israeli leadership wants to kill every Palestinian. They know the rest of the world won't let them get away with that. So they are slowing doing it through war crimes, because the rest of the world is more accepting of that.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Don't you think Hamas should have warned Palestinians to move to a safer location before carrying out terrorist attacks knowing what the response would be?

I thought you thought "whataboutism" is a bogus argument?

 

[LA - L.A.]

I am one of those who has been very critical of Israels actions in the past. Maybe it is due to their background but they have never really accepted international law but taken things in their own hands repeatedly. They have also repeatedly broken agreements on the west bank and Gaza and allowed buldozing of palestinian homes in order to create more settlements and there has been years of history about their ill treatment of local palestinians too. Verified stories about people dying in ambulances held back at checkpoints and random killings of protesting youths. Their standard procedure of leveling/destroying houses and homes of the families of protesters are also against international law.

"Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also prohibits the “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory”."

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/01/chapter-3-israeli-settlements-and-international-law/#:~:text=Article 49 of the Fourth,protected persons from occupied territory”.

An occupying force must also ensure access to water, food and basic necesseties in occupied areas according to international law. Another part that Israel has violated repeatedly through the years.

That said I definitely want Hamas removed from the earth - the crimes they commited deserves the ultimate punishment - which I fully support , but what Israel is currently doing is revenge - not justice and will only lead to the creation of more terrorist and I fear that this will also end with another land grab where Israel annexes half of Gaza "for protection"

You hit the logical disconnect that people are having on the head. In every post I make in this thread, when I say "Israel" I'm referring specifically to fascist extremist people in Israel who are currently controlling the decision making of the Israeli government and military.

What Israel has done and is doing will actually grow the ranks of Hamas and make them more vengeful and deadly. Anyone who sincerely wants Hamas neutralized should be criticizing Israel's actions, because Israel's actions are going to give Hamas a boost.

That's part of the strategy of making the more powerful enemy react in a way that's detrimental to themselves. Hamas wanted Israel to do what they are currently doing, because it will be a recruitment boom for them. The top ranks of Hama leadership, planning and procurement or nowhere near Gaza right now. Israel is only killing Hamas's ground pounders, but for every one of them they kill, they are killing several non-combatant people. For every Hamas foot soldier Israel, they are creating several more angry and vengeful people who will become new Hamas foot soldiers.

Israel knows this, which is why they are going to kill as many of the people in Gaza as the world allows them to. Sadly from the postings in this thread and news reports, it seems like the world is going to allow Israel to kill millions of the people in Gaza who have never been and would probably never be terrorist or combatants.

One of the most amazing mass hypnosis feats across hundreds of generations of humans is getting people to abandon their reason and humanity by simply telling or showing them the word "war."

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Tell that to the Rueters and BBC journalists.

By the way, another universal trait of fascism, violent assaults against a free press.

The current Israeli leadership wants to kill every Palestinian. They know the rest of the world want let them get away with that. So they are slowing doing through war crimes, because the rest of the world is more accepting of that. Just like you are!

Look #######, don't tell me I'm accepting of war crimes. I don't like it. Got it?

 

[samiam5211]

Look #######, don't tell me I'm accepting of war crimes. I don't like it. Got it?

That's the point. There are many people in the US whose support for Israel has caused them to put on blinders to the war crimes of the current government of Israel. I hope you don't like it, you shouldn't.

Bibi is an ultranationalist, and is only marginally better than the leaders of Hamas. ideologically, he is their Israeli counterpart.

The Oslo accords were the closest we ever came to peace. Bibi rose to power opposing that agreement. Many in Israel at the time even blamed him for the inspiring the assassination of Rabin.

Bibi spoke at rally's where people were holding up signs of Rabin with a crosshair over his face months before the assassination.

The current Israeli government led by Bibi is an extremist right wing ultranationalist government, they don't respect the Palestinians any more than Hamas respects Israelis. Despite what Bibi might try to present to the public.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

That's the point. There are many people in the US whose support for Israel has caused them to put on blinders to the war crimes of the current government of Israel. I hope you don't like it, you shouldn't.

Bibi is an ultranationalist, and is only marginally better than the leaders of Hamas. ideologically, he is their Israeli counterpart.

The Oslo accords were the closest we ever came to peace. Bibi rose to power opposing that agreement. Many even blamed him for the inspiring the assassination of Rabin.

Bibi spoke at rally's where people were holding up signs of Rabin with a crosshair over his face months before the assassination.

The current Israeli government led by Bibi is an extremist right wing ultranationalist government, they don't respect the Palestinians any more than Hamas respects Israelis. Despite what Bibi might try to present to the public.

You have no idea how I feel about the current Israeli government. I haven't said word one about it.

 

[samiam5211]

You have no idea how I feel about the current Israeli government. I haven't said word one about it.

ok

 

[LA - L.A.]

Which doesn't establish what you think the response should have been. Nothing? 2,000 bombs but not a bomb more? Ground combat, which is slow, tedious, and almost always leads to higher casualties?

I'm neither condoning nor celebrating the actions taken by Israel, but rather just trying to understand them in the real world we live in, and trying to do that without leaping to outlandish conclusions in the first few days of what is transpiring.

Our disagreement is primarily your claim that Biden is a war criminal because the U.S. has stepped up its presence in the Middle East.

What's the goal self-defense or vengeance or resource grab?

The US's military response to the attacks on Sept 11th was not self-defensive. The terrorist had shot their wad, in the original meaning of the phrase. We did not need to invade Iraq or Afghanistan to defend ourselves. US leadership and military knew that. Their goal was never self-defense.

Hamas has shot it's wad and no longer has the element of surprise. Reports indicate Hamas might not have even had the element of surprise.

The best defensive strategy for Israel is to keep refortifying their borders against anymore Hamas incursions from ground or sea. The Iron Dome gives them a lot of protection from air assault. They should use their extensive surveillance network to spot rocket attackers from with Gaza and then use their drones to track and target those individuals, instead of leveling the entire building they are in.

A little bit of logistical reality for everyone. Those rocket attackers are firing and immediately hauling butt to a a safe location. They have planned it out and know they will be out of harms way before Israeli air and missile strikes can hit their location. They want Israel to keep leveling entire residential buildings so they can grow their ranks and Israel being Israel is giving them exactly what they wanted and expected.

Israel's primary goals are resource grabbing, ethnic murder and vengeance. Their strategy actual undermines their long term self-defense and security, unless they kill so many Palestinians there aren't enough of them left to cause any more problems.

 

[DaveXA]

I thought you thought "whataboutism" is a bogus argument?

So...no? OK then.

 

[DaveXA]

You hit the logical disconnect that people are having on the head. In every post I make in this thread, when I say "Israel" I'm referring specifically to fascist extremist people in Israel who are currently controlling the decision making of the Israeli government and military.

What Israel has done and is doing will actually grow the ranks of Hamas and make them more vengeful and deadly. Anyone who sincerely wants Hamas neutralized should be criticizing Israel's actions, because Israel's actions are going to give Hamas a boost.

That's part of the strategy of making the more powerful enemy react in a way that's detrimental to themselves. Hamas wanted Israel to do what they are currently doing, because it will be a recruitment boom for them. The top ranks of Hama leadership, planning and procurement or nowhere near Gaza right now. Israel is only killing Hamas's ground pounders, but for every one of them they kill, they are killing several non-combatant people. For every Hamas foot soldier Israel, they are creating several more angry and vengeful people who will become new Hamas foot soldiers.

Israel knows this, which is why they are going to kill as many of the people in Gaza as the world allows them to. Sadly from the postings in this thread and news reports, it seems like the world is going to allow Israel to kill millions of the people in Gaza who have never been and would probably never be terrorist or combatants.

One of the most amazing mass hypnosis feats across hundreds of generations of humans is getting people to abandon their reason and humanity by simply telling or showing them the word "war."

You're gonna have to show your work because no one is saying what you're accusing of in this thread.

 

[DaveXA]

That's the point. There are many people in the US whose support for Israel has caused them to put on blinders to the war crimes of the current government of Israel. I hope you don't like it, you shouldn't.

Bibi is an ultranationalist, and is only marginally better than the leaders of Hamas. ideologically, he is their Israeli counterpart.

The Oslo accords were the closest we ever came to peace. Bibi rose to power opposing that agreement. Many in Israel at the time even blamed him for the inspiring the assassination of Rabin.

Bibi spoke at rally's where people were holding up signs of Rabin with a crosshair over his face months before the assassination.

The current Israeli government led by Bibi is an extremist right wing ultranationalist government, they don't respect the Palestinians any more than Hamas respects Israelis. Despite what Bibi might try to present to the public.

I don't think anyone is denying what you're saying about Bibi. Few people, at least few somewhat neutral people care for him. That said, he still is the leader, and regardless how they got there, this started because of actions Hamas did. An unconscionable act on thousands of unarmed people. It's pretty much their 9/11. That can't and won't go unanswered.

Our support of Bibi is far from absolute. I would hope the Israelis would recognize the human suffering happening in Gaza and allow them to leave Gaza with assistance until the war on Hamas ends. And I hope Biden and Congress uses the leverage they have to make sure Bibi doesn't kill millions of people in response to the barbaric attack of Hamas.

I've read that Hamas and Iran among others are "hoping" it happens and traps Israel into overreacting, with the goal of isolating Israel. I hope that doesn't happen. Get the Palestinians out before a ground offensive and I think the world has a different take than razing a land with 2 million people stuck in it without any help.

Israel has a choice to make. I hope they make the right one.

 

[MT15]

The support for Bibi has cratered in Israel. Most people blame him for not heeding warnings that Hamas was preparing a military-style attack. Once the war is over, I am hoping he is finished there and ends up in jail where he belongs.

OTOH, we don’t have a whole lot of room to talk since we elected Trump. He’s worse than Bibi.