Israel vs Hamas (3 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[samiam5211]

And why nobody - who wants to be taken seriously - should be labeling Biden a war criminal.

There is just far too much involved - historically, diplomatically, sociopolitically - to be that recklessly over-reactionary at this stage.

I have no concern about whether I am taken seriously.

Nothing any of us say here matters at all.

 

[Incumbent]

I have no concern about whether I am taken seriously.

Nothing any of us say here matters at all.

It matters here, doesn't it?

But certainly, if you don't care, I'll keep that in mind, because it actually matters to me whether I believe I'm interacting with people who can be taken seriously.

 

[DaveXA]

I have no concern about whether I am taken seriously.

Nothing any of us say here matters at all.

Maybe not to you, but it certainly matters to me. My views and opinions have been influenced by what I've read here and there's a lot I wasn't aware of that I've learned over the years. That counts for something in my book.

 

[Dragon]

I am one of those who has been very critical of Israels actions in the past. Maybe it is due to their background but they have never really accepted international law but taken things in their own hands repeatedly. They have also repeatedly broken agreements on the west bank and Gaza and allowed buldozing of palestinian homes in order to create more settlements and there has been years of history about their ill treatment of local palestinians too. Verified stories about people dying in ambulances held back at checkpoints and random killings of protesting youths. Their standard procedure of leveling/destroying houses and homes of the families of protesters are also against international law.

"Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also prohibits the “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory”."

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/c...th,protected persons from occupied territory”.

An occupying force must also ensure access to water, food and basic necesseties in occupied areas according to international law. Another part that Israel has violated repeatedly through the years.

That said I definitely want Hamas removed from the earth - the crimes they commited deserves the ultimate punishment - which I fully support , but what Israel is currently doing is revenge - not justice and will only lead to the creation of more terrorist and I fear that this will also end with another land grab where Israel annexes half of Gaza "for protection"

 

[UriUT]

I have no concern about whether I am taken seriously.

Nothing any of us say here matters at all.

If there's any consolation, I think there will be a reckoning for Israel if they take it too far. They obviously have the moral high ground for what Hamas did. But if they are to take it too far, I believe the West will take notice and hopefully neuter their political influence. A one state solution just cannot be because either the Palestinians are exterminated or they continue oppressed and lash out.

 

[UriUT]

Maybe not to you, but it certainly matters to me. My views and opinions have been influenced by what I've read here and there's a lot I wasn't aware of that I've learned over the years. That counts for something in my book.

I think all these grand standings should stop. He has a right to express his opinions. This is an emotional, complex topic.

 

[UriUT]

I am one of those who has been very critical of Israels actions in the past. Maybe it is due to their background but they have never really accepted international law but taken things in their own hands repeatedly. They have also repeatedly broken agreements on the west bank and Gaza and allowed buldozing of palestinian homes in order to create more settlements and there has been years of history about their ill treatment of local palestinians too. Verified stories about people dying in ambulances held back at checkpoints and random killings of protesting youths. Their standard procedure of leveling/destroying houses and homes of the families of protesters are also against international law.

"Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also prohibits the “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory”."

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/01/chapter-3-israeli-settlements-and-international-law/#:~:text=Article 49 of the Fourth,protected persons from occupied territory”.

An occupying force must also ensure access to water, food and basic necesseties in occupied areas according to international law. Another part that Israel has violated repeatedly through the years.

That said I definitely want Hamas removed from the earth - the crimes they commited deserves the ultimate punishment - which I fully support , but what Israel is currently doing is revenge - not justice and will only lead to the creation of more terrorist and I fear that this will also end with another land grab where Israel annexes half of Gaza "for protection"

Lebensraum.

not justice and will only lead to the creation of more terrorist and I fear that this will also end with another land grab where Israel annexes half of Gaza "for protection"

 

[MT15]

None of us do, so we shouldn't pretend that this or that is going on behind the scenes.

Or pretend that it’s not.

 

[Incumbent]

I think all these grand standings should stop. He has a right to express his opinions. This is an emotional, complex topic.

I understand the emotional aspect but I think a big problem with political discourse is how dominated by outlandish rhetoric it's become, amplified by social media. Most people understand what a dire situation this is and every decent human being is saddened by the loss of innocent lives, especially children. There is blood on all sides of this. It's a perilous situation without easy answers.

 

[samiam5211]

If there's any consolation, I think there will be a reckoning for Israel if they take it too far. They obviously have the moral high ground for what Hamas did. But if they are to take it too far, I believe the West will take notice and hopefully neuter their political influence. A one state solution just cannot be because either the Palestinians are exterminated or they continue oppressed and lash out.

I think they had the moral high ground up until a few days ago. IMO they have already burned through it.

I hope that there is some sort of line where if Israel crosses it, the moral high ground is used up that other people have, even if it is not the same as my line.

 

[el caliente]

 

[UriUT]

I understand the emotional aspect but I think a big problem with political discourse is how dominated by outlandish rhetoric it's become, amplified by social media. Most people understand what a dire situation this is and every decent human being is saddened by the loss of innocent lives, especially children. There is blood on all sides of this. It's a perilous situation without easy answers.

There's a clear distinction between his arguments and from what someone like Glenn Greenwald or those who follows and parrots them. We don't know Samian's proximity to this conflict. His level of tolerance to the needless deaths is different from you and I. I think lecturing him is without merit.

 

[Incumbent]

I think they had the moral high ground up until a few days ago. IMO they have already burned through it.

I hope that there is some sort of line where if Israel crosses it, the moral high ground is used up that other people have, even if it is not the same as my line.

It's not quite a full week since Hamas carried out its attack on Israel, and it's not understood what you think Israel's response should have been.

I don't know what the line will be. I was struck by the dread of knowing Israel's response will be devastating when there was reported confirmation of babies being intentionally tortured and brutally murdered by Hamas terrorists. Not unintended collateral deaths, but intended acts of barbarism no decent human can comprehend.

We know diplomacy isn't viable. We know that the sides are far too dug in on their positions. This is about as hopeless a situation as I can imagine.

 

[MT15]

Do you think he knew this raid was going to happen? Do you think the stock went up in the past month?

 

[UriUT]

Am I reading this right? September 13th of this year? These guys knew about the attacks a month ago!!!!! Wow!!!! To think Egypt warned Netanyahu 3 days before the attacks.

 

[Incumbent]

There's a clear distinction between his arguments and from what someone like Glenn Greenwald or those who follows and parrots them. We don't know Samian's proximity to this conflict. His level of tolerance to the needless deaths is different from you and I. I think lecturing him is without merit.

The unknown proximity to this is true for all of us. There's probably much that Sam and I agree about on this but formulating the conclusion that Biden should be arrested for war crimes is exactly the kind of absurd overreaction that is problematic in reasonable discourse. He can say it, and you can be fine with it, but I think it should be challenged.

 

[samiam5211]

It's not quite a full week since Hamas carried out its attack on Israel, and it's not understood what you think Israel's response should have been.

I don't know what the line will be. I was struck by the dread of knowing Israel's response will be devastating when there was reported confirmation of babies being intentionally tortured and brutally murdered by Hamas terrorists. Not unintended collateral deaths, but intended acts of barbarism no decent human can comprehend.

We know diplomacy isn't viable. We know that the sides are far too dug in on their positions. This is about as hopeless a situation as I can imagine.

Already over 6000 bombs dropped on Gaza and what little food water and electricity they have has been cut off.

My line is was somewhere before that.

 

[DaveXA]

I think all these grand standings should stop. He has a right to express his opinions. This is an emotional, complex topic.

We all have a right to express our opinions here. Yes.