Israel vs Hamas (3 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[samiam5211]

So let Hamas and other terrorist organizations operate with impunity?

Gaza has a high population density at 15,000 people per square mile. There aren't easier answers.

Acting like there are easy answers isn't helping either though.

When did I act like there were easy answers?

Easy is just bombing the crap out of Gaza and pretending like it will just kill terrorists, or that it is even killing mostly terrorists.

The people dying in Gaza are mostly civilians, and children at that.

Israel's response has been the easiest possible response so far. Just bombing people when there is absolutely no risk to your jets. They are taking the easy way out for them which is causing more civilian deaths.

 

[DaveXA]

When did I act like there were easy answers?

Easy is just bombing the crap out of Gaza and pretending like it will just kill terrorists, or that it is even killing mostly terrorists.

The people dying in Gaza are mostly civilians, and children at that.

Smh....

 

[UriUT]

The following does not excuse Hamas’s most recent actions, but the historical context should be considered. The creation of Israel was at the expense of Palestinians and for the last 70 year, along with the continued oppression of Palestinians so Israel can feel safe, but they are not safe .

• Creation of Israel orchestrated by the BrIrish, US and UN in British Controlled Palestine (their colony?) at the expense of Palestinians and Israel has been oppressing them and been in conflict ever since.
• Many Arabs saw the influx of Jews as a European colonial movement, and the two peoples fought bitterly
• Israel took 77% of the Palestinian lands and was taking more and more in the West Bank myopically feeling that it was their right to do so.
• Many Palestinians view Israel, as a might makes right, terrorist State.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52756427

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/12/israel-is-a-terrorist-state/

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/20/18080016/israel-zionism-war-1948

Social and political developments in Europe convinced Jews they needed their own country, and their ancestral homeland seemed like the right place to establish it. European Jews — 90 percent of all Jews at the time — arrived at Zionism partly because of rising anti-Semitic persecution and partly because the Enlightenment introduced Jews to secular nationalism. Between 1896 and 1948, hundreds of thousands of Jews resettled from Europe to what was then British-controlled Palestine, including large numbers forced out of Europe during the Holocaust.

Many Arabs saw the influx of Jews as a European colonial movement, and the two peoples fought bitterly. The British couldn’t control the violence, and in 1947 the United Nations voted to split the land into two countries. Almost all of the roughly 650,000 Jews went to the blue territory in the map to the right, and a majority of the Arab population (roughly twice the size of the Jewish community) went to the orange.

The Jewish residents accepted the deal. The Palestinians, who saw the plan as an extension of a long-running Jewish attempt push them out of the land, fought it. The Arab states of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria all later declared war on Israel, as well (albeit not to defend the Palestinians).

Israeli forces defeated the Palestinian militias and Arab armies in a vicious conflict that turned 700,000 Palestinian civilians into refugees. The UN partition promised 56 percent of British Palestine for the Jewish state; by the end of the war, Israel possessed 77 percent — everything except the West Bank and the eastern quarter of Jerusalem (controlled by Jordan), as well as the Gaza Strip (controlled by Egypt). It left Israelis with a state, but not Palestinians.

I think you are overly generous when you say that the Brits couldn't control the violence. Jews who would be Israeli founders employed terrorists tactics against the Brits because they tried to restrict more Jewish immigration. The irony is that Jews were buying lands from Palestinians, who were willing to sell them but the Brits began imposing restrictions to sales because of the boiling animosity. I mean, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, right? I find this to be at the heart of Israeli PR in the West as they do not want Hamas or the PLA to be labeled as freedom fighters (queue that ADL ceo clip). With this crisis, Hamas really shot themselves in the foot. I always find Gandhi and MLK's use of passive resistance to be generally more effective against a much more powerful force (the West's backing of Israel). Nibble at the moral consciousness of the oppressor or it's enabler. Really, the Palestinians tried with very little success the forceful/terrorist tactic before with the PLA when practically every Arab country supported it. How does Hamas expect a different result today when most Arab countries are pretty much done with this issue? This attack now effectively closed every door to any moral high ground. It could be easily argued that Israel's blockade of the Gaza (yeah Egypt's also a part of it) is a form of concentration/internment camp, which is a human rights violation, and how Israel's hard turn to the right along with taking more Palestinian West bank lands paints Israel as the aggressor.

Nothing good will come out of this crisis. It's times like this is when we reflect on what could have been. Rabin's assassination by an ultranationalist israeli who thought the PM was giving too much land to the Palestinians has damaged much of the peace process. And whether you believe it's arafat or the israeli who ultimately declined any deal, neither side view the other as human. It's all tragic.

Anyway, the historical context of how Israel was formed is moot now. We have approximately 6 million Jews there. That will not change. Despite giving them 12 billion annually (? I forget what Obama's final figure was) we really don't have much sway with Israel because Israel's lobby is just that strong in the US. How often does Netanyahu raise a middle finger to a US president? All we can do is hopefully contain the Israeli anger and minimize civilian casualties with what say we have, whether they support Hamas or not. After all, do we advocate killing in the name of ideology? We don't want maga or liberals to die because of their beliefs. Let's be human here and not put weights on innocent lives (general plea here and not pointing at anyone in case someone comes at me).

PS. I want to remind folks that there are ultraorthodox Jews who run around Israel killing Palestinians, and is immediately released if caught or reported. Though not on the scale of Hamas, but still a routine occurrence. The point is that there are extremist elements on each sides and we don't blame the entire group.

Israeli settler accused of involvement in killing of Palestinian moved to house arrest

A Jerusalem court says that an Israeli settler suspected of involvement in the killing a 19-year-old Palestinian man in the West Bank last week has been released from detention and transferred to house arrest.

apnews.com

 

[zztop]

I wonder if it would be accurate to compare this to the Vietnam war, in that it was difficult to identify and root out the combatants from the civilians.

 

[Incumbent]

When did I act like there were easy answers?

Easy is just bombing the crap out of Gaza and pretending like it will just kill terrorists, or that it is even killing mostly terrorists.

The people dying in Gaza are mostly civilians, and children at that.

Israel's response has been the easiest possible response so far. Just bombing people when there is absolutely no risk to your jets. They are taking the easy way out for them which is causing more civilian deaths.

So how would you "wipe out Hamas"?

When I say easier answers, I mean ways of dismantling Hamas other than attacking the infrastructure they rely on. What do you suggest?

Most of us don't like this. The issues involved here are far too complex and complicated for any of us to fully make sense of it.

 

[UriUT]

The easiest answer is to make major concessions to Egypt, and some kind of decades long aid package along with a massive infrastructure project for a Palestine city in Egypt. You evacuate all the civilians with the understanding they are never coming back to Gaza. It will cost Israel a fortune, but it's the best outcome for everyone.

I don't believe it's a simple answer. After suppressing the Muslim Brotherhood, they do not want further instability by allowing more extremists into their border via Gaza. I believe that was their motivation in completely closing that border.

 

[samiam5211]

So how would you "wipe out Hamas"?

When I say easier answers, I mean ways of dismantling Hamas that other than attacking the infrastructure they rely on. What do you suggest?

Most of us don't like this. The issues involved here are far too complex and complicated for any of us to fully make sense of it.

Do you think there is no other option than bombing Gaza?

Bibi is an ultranationalist who has wanted this war for his entire life. We shouldn't pretend that his plan is the only option.

Even people in Israel are not as fully on board as people here seem to be.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

When did I act like there were easy answers?

Easy is just bombing the crap out of Gaza and pretending like it will just kill terrorists, or that it is even killing mostly terrorists.

The people dying in Gaza are mostly civilians, and children at that.

Israel's response has been the easiest possible response so far. Just bombing people when there is absolutely no risk to your jets. They are taking the easy way out for them which is causing more civilian deaths.

Look for krist sake, Israeli isn't just dropping bombs and firing artillery and rockets into Gaza willy nilly. They are setting up a pathway for their armor and infantry, taking down buildings Hamas has used and/or could use, and many other things, no doubt, that I'm not familiar with.

 

[Incumbent]

Do you think there is no other option than bombing Gaza?

Bibi is an ultranationalist who has wanted this war for his entire life. We shouldn't pretend that his plan is the only option.

Even people in Israel are not as fully on board as people here seem to be.

There are other options; the results of which aren't clearer.

I'm not defending Netanyahu or condoning the actions of Israel. I'm also not making absurd claims that Biden is a war criminal.

I want to know what you think the better way is since you've reached such strong conclusions.

 

[UriUT]

Good read:

This needs to be bumped regularly to remind folks of the complexity and not get overly emotional.

The direction of a one state solution is what we are witnessing in real time. This isn't revolutionary as it was predicted and relayed to the two sides. An oppressed group will be the powder keg that blows up. The Israeli far right doesn't wish this and wants more Palestinian lands, and some fringe Palestinian groups not grounded in reality that they will never get all "their" lands back.

 

[Incumbent]

Look for krist sake, Israeli isn't just dropping bombs and firing artillery and rockets into Gaza willy nilly. They are setting up a pathway for their armor and infantry, taking down buildings Hamas has used and/or could use, and many other things, no doubt, that I'm not familiar with.

There's a reality to this that none of us have to like, condone, or agree with. War is awful. In every instance I wish opposing sides could find another way. Reality has other plans.

You are right that disabling critical infrastructure and targeting combat positions is a staple of armed warfare.

 

[samiam5211]

Look for krist sake, Israeli isn't just dropping bombs and firing artillery and rockets into Gaza willy nilly. They are setting up a pathway for their armor and infantry, taking down buildings Hamas has used and/or could use, and many other things, no doubt, that I'm not familiar with.

There is no such thing as a non civilian building in Gaza.

 

[Incumbent]

There is no such thing as a non civilian building in Gaza.

So don't take the fight to Gaza BUT also wipe out Hamas. Got it.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

No it is the outcome of Israel's reaction to Hamas.

Israel is responsible for their actions, and Hamas is responsible for their actions.

The innocent civilians killed in Gaza are just as innocent as the people killed at the music festival.

Then I will make the argument that this is the moment for the innocent civilians of Gaza to rise up against Hamas. Hamas has done them ONE favor and that is that there is outside forces ready to rid them of the oppressive Hamas terrorist regime.

If you believe, as I do, that not everyone in Gaza supports Hamas, then you would have to believe that there HAS to have been those that have tried to usurp Hamas' power and they were systematically killed off by the terrorist. They had no one to help them, no one was paying attention to their despair and they were outnumbered by Hamas supporters and those that kept their heads down out of fear or reprisals. Now the world is watching and if they would make stand against Hamas, they will find allies in that effort.

 

[DaveXA]

There is no such thing as a non civilian building in Gaza.

That's an absurd take.

 

[UriUT]

Do you think there is no other option than bombing Gaza?

Bibi is an ultranationalist who has wanted this war for his entire life. We shouldn't pretend that his plan is the only option.

Even people in Israel are not as fully on board as people here seem to be.

I really don't think much can be done as the Israeli are in a warpath. Much as we were post 9/11. Timothy Snyder makes the point that the motivation for terrorist attacks is precisely for what Israel is doing and what we did. An oversized reaction that will turn the world against Israel and create more extremists. As much as I dislike Israel's undue influence in our politics, there isn't much Biden or anyone can do but to temper Israel's anger at this point. The genie's out of the bottle.

 

[samiam5211]

I really don't think much can be done as the Israeli are in a warpath. Much as we were post 9/11. Timothy Snyder makes the point that the motivation for terrorist attacks is precisely for what Israel is doing and what we did. An oversized reaction that will turn the world against Israel and create more extremists. As much as I dislike Israel's undue influence in our politics, there isn't much Biden or anyone can do but to temper Israel's anger at this point. The genie's out of the bottle.

I agree with everything except that there isn't much Biden can do to slow them down.

Biden's actions have only encouraged them to act with impunity. His public comments have given the impression that Israel is going to do what it is going to do, and the US stands with them no matter what.

That is why I am putting responsibility on Biden for whatever happens.

Our overaction to 911 made us less safe. We would have been better off doing absolutely nothing that what we did.

Israel's overreaction is going to make them less safe.

 

[MT15]

The side that claims to want to hold civilians deaths to a minimum, have killed more civilians than the terrorists in the past 7 days.

According to Hamas?