Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[bird]

A couple of things…

although perhaps they didn’t invent it, the US used total war meaning war on an enemy’s economy and infrastructure during the civil war. It is unsurprising to see it used and hypocritical of us to denounce its usage by other actors.

The use of terror Is also unsurprising. Terror or asymmetrical warfare has been used multiple times. We used it but framed it with the oh, so pleasant terminology of “shock and awe”. So again we should not be surprised.

imo, the bottom line is that there is no “solution” to the Middle East unless and until all parties are gathered and a solution hammered out. That solution should NOT arbitrarily include the US, Russia, China or any other western player unless they will accept gaining no advantage from the solution.

There are plenty of blood covered hands in the quagmire of the Middle East. To think that one party or another is blameless is simply idiocy.

 

[bird]

Btw, attempts to regulate war along the lines of the Geneva Conventions do not lessen the likelihood of war. They increase it.

 

[samiam5211]

Is that why you have called for Biden to be arrested? Because you aren’t pretending that one side is worse?

Hamas should be wiped out too.

Hamas should be wiped out in a way that minimizes civilians suffering. There is no reason to cut off food and water other than punish the Palestinian people collectively, most of whom were not even alive the last time Hamas won an election.

Israel should have rolled in with their tanks days ago, instead of 6,000 air strikes on civilians areas. There are no parts of Gaza that aren't civilian areas.

 

[samiam5211]

There are more people under the age of 5 in Gaza than there are people over the age of 45.

 

[Incumbent]

Biden has endorsed anything Israel will end up doing, including cutting off food, water and electricity to Gaza. That is why I say he is complicit in war crimes.

They are collectively punishing the Palestinian people, i don't care how anyone tries to rationalize it. There is NO EXCUSE to cut off food and water. It is a crime, and Israel has not had once ounce of public pressure put on them by the US to not cut off critical civilian supplies.

We are mostly left to our assumptions but you are reaching for outlandish conclusions. We have only a very small glimpse into what is taking place around this issue.

Israel is going to do what it believes is necessary to its national security. The U.S. moving ships into the region isn't enabling that, it's establishing a presence to hopefully deter the spread of warfare and keep the theater small, while attempting to work diplomatic channels, like U.S. efforts to facilitate safe passage out of Gaza and limiting civilian casualties. There aren't any easy answers.

 

[Incumbent]

Hamas should be wiped out too.

Hamas should be wiped out in a way that minimizes civilians suffering. There is no reason to cut off food and water other than punish the Palestinian people collectively, most of whom were not even alive the last time Hamas won an election.

Israel should have rolled in with their tanks days ago, instead of 6,000 air strikes on civilians areas. There are no parts of Gaza that aren't civilian areas.

I assume the infrastructure of Gaza is pretty well destroyed and disrupted at this point. How would humanitarian efforts to get in water, food, and fuel work? I'm not saying you are wrong in your compassion, I am questioning the feasibility of it in an active war zone, in an area that is ruled by a terrorist organization.

 

[MT15]

Hamas should be wiped out in a way that minimizes civilians suffering.

I believe that is Israel’s goal as well. I have heard their explanations of how they warn the civilian population before a missile strike. How they send SMS warnings, they “thump” the building they are going to hit, they broadcast warnings.

I am not sure how going in immediately with tanks would have mitigated civilian deaths. It would have increased Israeli deaths quite possibly, though.

I also believe that the Administration is working very hard behind the scenes to get Israel to tap the brakes. And to find somewhere for the Palestinian people to go.

It’s all ghastly.

 

[samiam5211]

I assume the infrastructure of Gaza is pretty well destroyed and disrupted at this point. How would humanitarian efforts to get in water, food, and fuel work, at this point? I'm not saying you are wrong in your compassion, I am questioning the feasibility of it in an active war zone, in an area that is ruled by a terrorist organization.

I believe that is Israel’s goal as well. I have heard their explanations of how they warn the civilian population before a missile strike. How they send SMS warnings, they “thump” the building they are going to hit, they broadcast warnings.

I am not sure how going in immediately with tanks would have mitigated civilian deaths. It would have increased Israeli deaths quite possibly, though.

I also believe that the Administration is working very hard behind the scenes to get Israel to tap the brakes. And to find somewhere for the Palestinian people to go.

It’s all ghastly.

Gaza is an orphanage where some terrorists also live.

We are treating it like a terrorist camp where a few kids happen to live.

 

[MT15]

Gaza is an orphanage where some terrorists also live.

We are treating it like a terrorist camp where a few kids happen to live.

The terrorists are treating these kids as expendable. They brought this about.

 

[samiam5211]

The terrorists are treating these kids as expendable. They brought this about.

Everyone is treating the kids as expendable.

 

[MT15]

Everyone is treating the kids as expendable.

Maybe so. But there are degrees - one side cares absolutely nothing about them and the other side wants to try to hold civilian deaths to a minimum, but not let the terrorists get away. War is just awful. Always has been.

 

[samiam5211]

Maybe so. But there are degrees - one side cares absolutely nothing about them and the other side wants to try to hold civilian deaths to a minimum, but not let the terrorists get away. War is just awful. Always has been.

The side that claims to want to hold civilians deaths to a minimum, have killed more civilians than the terrorists in the past 7 days.

 

[Incumbent]

Gaza is an orphanage where some terrorists also live.

We are treating it like a terrorist camp where a few kids happen to live.

We?

You have made your criticisms clear but then say you want Hamas wiped out. In what alternate way do you think that will be accomplished? Civilian casualties are a tragic reality of armed conflict. I wish the sides could sit down and work out a peaceful solution but that has failed to happen for decades.

 

[Incumbent]

Everyone is treating the kids as expendable.

So let Hamas and other terrorist organizations operate with impunity?

Gaza has a high population density at 15,000 people per square mile. There aren't easier answers.

 

[DaveXA]

The side that claims to want to hold civilians deaths to a minimum, have killed more civilians than the terrorists in the past 7 days.

Acting like there are easy answers isn't helping either though.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

We?

You have made your criticisms clear but then say you want Hamas wiped out. In what alternate way do you think that will be accomplished? Civilian casualties are a tragic reality of armed conflict. I wish the sides could sit down and work out a peaceful solution but that has failed to happen for decades.

Particularly when the theater is like Gaza and the enemy is hiding among the population. The one decent thing you can say about Hamas is that they fought the Israeli special forces face-to-face last Saturday/Sunday/Monday.

 

[J-DONK]

Acting like there are easy answers isn't helping either though.

The easiest answer is to make major concessions to Egypt, and some kind of decades long aid package along with a massive infrastructure project for a Palestine city in Egypt. You evacuate all the civilians with the understanding they are never coming back to Gaza. It will cost Israel a fortune, but it's the best outcome for everyone.

 

[DaveXA]

The easiest answer is to make major concessions to Egypt, and some kind of decades long aid package along with a massive infrastructure project for a Palestine city in Egypt. You evacuate all the civilians with the understanding they are never coming back to Gaza. It will cost Israel a fortune, but it's the best outcome for everyone.

Agreed. So far Egypt hasn't budged. I don't know what would be enough to convince them. I just find it shocking that they're refusing.