Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[efil4]

No one has ever claimed that they were not in this thread. But Hamas being a terrorist group doesn't excuse Israel for what they've done since. They've been reckless beyond reproach, but apparently that's ok.

i mentioned this on the Ukraine EE thread and ill just put here because i think it applies to this conflict.

We ( Americans ) have become desensitized to what "war" actually is. We have lived the better part of our adult lives witnessing GW1, GW2 and Afghanistan thru the lens of "precision" conflicts. Conflicts that were restrictive in nature to avoid collateral damage ( ie civilians )
Outside of GW1, the latter two were disasters. You cannot wage armed conflict with restrictions.

War is an ugly, barbaric and brutal undertaking. Yet we have somehow gotten to a place where war is supposed to be some relatively clean, protective endeavor. Its not. NEver was and never will be. But i suspect that it was created in part, to make it easier for politicians to "sell it" back home.

Israel had ZERO reservations about waging a war. None. And what everyone is seeing now ( and if you have been paying attention, Russia doing exact same thing to Ukrainian towns and cities ) from Israel is what war REALLY is. Unapologetic combat. Combat that includes the death of civilians in part, in hopes that the citizens of said warring nation/state say enough and pressure their leaders to come to terms. Breaking the will of the opponent thru any means necessary.

Thats what war is. And why after 1945, we had so little of it until the technology made us think we could wage war without harming as many innocents. Simply untrue.

not meaning to derail this thread, but wanted to post this here because i think what many are missing is the true nature of waging war.

 

[Incumbent]

Oh, no doubt he flipped. I can't imagine any other way he'd avoided being charged there. He's definitely got some skeletons.

This conversation piqued my curiosity. I read that Fields wasn’t tailed after being filmed receiving money from Edwards. Makes me wonder if he had already become a cooperating witness at some point in the investigation, and law enforcement didn’t want to expose him. Being named an unindicted co-conspirator could have been to keep pressure on him. I also read the list wasn’t supposed to be released, it was sealed by the judge but leaked. According to the T-P, Fields didn’t hold elected office at the time of his meeting with Edwards, so maybe prosecutors didn’t see him as a worthwhile target.

 

[Heathen]

I think it is kind of a conspiracy theory that Israel created Hamas. Palestinians clearly created Hamas, a one time majority of Palestinians voted them in.

It was kind of like the Nazi election in Germany, once voted in, voting stopped. I regard them as terrorists, about as warm and fuzzy as the Taliban or ISIS.

Their name Hamas basically means Islamic Resistance Movement. A hell of a name for a government, but a good name for terrorists, which they indeed are.

I realize the Israelis are being terrorists too.

Many fair points, and I think that is a fair objection as to the way I had stated it. Maybe a better way I could have said it is that Israel funded and facilitated much of the rise of Hamas to their advantage, such that they likely wouldn’t exist as we know them today without Israel.

Here is an interesting article from the Intercept on feedback from a former Israeli government official who had worked in Gaza:
BLOWBACK: HOW ISRAEL WENT FROM HELPING CREATE HAMAS TO BOMBING IT - The Intercept

. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)

“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote.

Israel's historical role in the rise of Hamas

Israel’s objective was twofold: to split the nationalist Palestinian movement led by Arafat and, more fundamentally, to thwart the implementation of the two-state solution for resolving the protracted Israeli-Palestinian conflict. By aiding the rise of an Islamist group whose charter rejected recognizing the Israeli state, Israel sought to undermine the idea of a two-state solution, including curbing Western support for an independent Palestinian homeland.

Israel’s spy agency Mossad played a role in this divide-and-rule game in the occupied territories. In a 1994 book, “The Other Side of Deception,” Mossad whistleblower Victor Ostrovsky contended that aiding Hamas meshed with “Mossad’s general plan” for an Arab world “run by fundamentalists” that would reject “any negotiations with the West,” thereby leaving Israel as “the only democratic, rational country in the region.” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official involved in Gaza for over two decades, told a newspaper interviewer in 2009 that, “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation.”

 

[Heathen]

I don’t agree that the title should limit what we consider and how we approach the topic. That’s a restriction you want to impose.

Well that’s untrue, I’m stating that I don’t want to impose it, I just assumed thought that was the immediate scope.

In the scope of this being an “event” as the title is labeled “Israel Hamas war”, which started with October 7, there was a reason to assume such. Nowhere have I stated that I am against discussing the broader scope of this topic.

Israel has been heavier-handed in its response to a group that wants Israel’s destruction. That’s the context.

Another way to look at it is that they have committed genocide against a large number of inhabitants to the point it appears as a destruction of an entire territory, while telling the world they are targeting a few - in this response. What are your thoughts on that opinion?

You’ve made it seemingly clear that you don’t want to understand any of this beyond Israel’s guilt. Do you recognize that Hamas is a terrorist group that wants to eliminate the Israeli people? Seeing the shared blame and contempt is the only way to begin to understand this.

Quite a lot of labels you’re retiring my way.

Outrage over a human rights violation by one group doesn’t mean that I don’t understand broader context. This seems to be something you’ve conjured up.

I absolutely agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity that desires to destroy the state of Israel. I agree that they should be tried and convicted of their crimes against humanity.

That does not, however, mean that what has happened since October 7th equivocates to blame that can be attributed equally between the two groups. If we can’t focus on the last 8 months, what’s the point of focusing at all? I’m happy to go down the road of every Israeli-Hamas shared list of terror and will - but we need to be able to address these events as they come too.

Simply put.. If one terrorist group slaughters 40,000 people and another 1,500 - do you see them as equals in their crime?

 

[Heathen]

It’s not “ok” and I’m not taking that position. I don’t think anybody else here is doing that, either.

What I’m saying is this is all far more complicated than just repeating over and over that Israel is a terrorist state committing genocide.

It IS more complicated. You are the one inferring people are here stating that it isn’t, which has NEVER been the case. But the statement you reference can be argued to be true - from both a legal and sociolinguistic standpoint.

If you don’t agree, switch Israel and Hamas - meaning Hamas has killed 40,000+ innocent people and destroyed their land (Israel) and see if your answers align.

 

[Incumbent]

Well that’s untrue, I’m stating that I don’t want to impose it, I just assumed thought that was the immediate scope.

In the scope of this being an “event” as the title is labeled “Israel Hamas war”, which started with October 7, there was a reason to assume such. Nowhere have I stated that I am against discussing the broader scope of this topic.



Another way to look at it is that they have committed genocide against a large number of inhabitants to the point it appears as a destruction of an entire territory, while telling the world they are targeting a few - in this response. What are your thoughts on that opinion?



Quite a lot of labels you’re retiring my way.

Outrage over a human rights violation by one group doesn’t mean that I don’t understand broader context. This seems to be something you’ve conjured up.

I absolutely agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity that desires to destroy the state of Israel. I agree that they should be tried and convicted of their crimes against humanity.

That does not, however, mean that what has happened since October 7th equivocates to blame that can be attributed equally between the two groups. If we can’t focus on the last 8 months, what’s the point of focusing at all? I’m happy to go down the road of every Israeli-Hamas shared list of terror and will - but we need to be able to address these events as they come too.

Simply put.. If one terrorist group slaughters 40,000 people and another 1,500 - do you see them as equals in their crime?

Then why bring up the title and scope in the first place? I’m glad we agree the broader context and history matters and should be considered. I’m not interested in post October 7 events only.

Discussing this helps us understand where we all are coming from because in this kind of format, that’s not always as clear as we might think we’re being.

Not sure what you mean about labels but, yes, I do think you’ve taken a decidedly one-sided view of this and while I believe I understand why, we have some disagreements about that.

I’ll refer to efil’s post on warfare, not as an exoneration of Israel, but as a reality check of close quarters combat in a densely populated region. This was never not going to be extremely bloody war with many casualties. We agree that Israel is guilty of acting in bad faith and heavy-handed at times, but if there is a more measured approach that you think Israel should have taken / should be taking, that might be an area for us to find some agreement. I think it’s also important to remember that, like Israel, Hamas is a propaganda machine.

 

[Incumbent]

While I also can agree there is room to criticize Biden and the global community in their response, I think there are many people downplaying just how much of a powder keg this is, and really has been, for decades. I don’t think Biden is to blame, as many claim. This is the undertaking of Hamas and Netanyahu (and I strongly suspect Putin, in some role), and I think the U.S. is correctly trying to keep this from building into a much bigger conflict, by maintaining a strong presence and discouraging outside participation, while trying to guide a defiant Netanyahu to an ending. I’m not at all confident that will ultimately be successful.

 

[efil4]

Simply put.. If one terrorist group slaughters 40,000 people and another 1,500 - do you see them as equals in their crime?

here is where i think things get blurred....Israel publicly and quite emphatically declared War on Hamas. Not a special military operation. Not a precision strike(s) campaign.
( and if i remember correct- the US actually asked Israel to conduct a "surgical strikes"( US loves this term ) type conflict to avoid collateral damage to which they said no )

Israel didnt cross into Palestine, kill, kidnap and maim as many as they could before retreating back into the safety of their land.

Thats terrorism. Thats not war.

What Israel is doing now is waging an all out war on Hamas. They declared as much.

Now, you can certainly debate the consequences of waging war, because of its brutality. But waging war, with a military that dwarfs your opposition isnt terrorism. Its waging war with the upper hand.

Hamas didnt declare their Oct 7 attack publicly because had they, it wouldnt have gotten past the border. Hence the "terrorist" moniker.

Israel isnt waging terrorism, they are waging war. 1940s style - not something we have seen since then.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Israel isnt waging terrorism, they are waging war.

Telling folks to evacuate to a particular area as a safe zone, then attacking said area is pretty terrorist in demeanor to me.

 

[efil4]

Telling folks to evacuate to a particular area as a safe zone, then attacking said area is pretty terrorist in demeanor to me.

Im sure many view it the same way.


Israels stated goal is to eliminate Hamas.

Hamas members moved into that same location.

The strike was not intended to kill as many civilians as possible to sow fear and chaos- it was intended to kill Hamas members.

 

[Heathen]

Then why bring up the title and scope in the first place? I’m glad we agree the broader context and history matters and should be considered. I’m not interested in post October 7 events only.

It would be silly to only be interested in that timeline and act like all other history doesn’t matter. I’ve never argued that. I’m saying that this event matters in the context of all of that and can’t be handwaved away to “well both sides have their issues” because it takes away from the responsibility of convicting any side when they commit acts of terror.

Each event matters. It seems some here are conflating outrage, which is absolutely warranted, to one sided thinking.

If Israel has committed the majority of the atrocities against innocent lives since October 7th, I’m not sure why anyone would expect a “balanced” reaction to these everyday events in the sense that “but Hamas” was littered in every response - which some seem to want. It’s just not sensible. I have repeatedly said Hamas was guilty of their acts on Oct 7th. But Hamas hasn’t been committing acts like that nonstop since October. If they had, you bet your arse I’d be complaining pretty nonstop about Hamas too.

Discussing this helps us understand where we all are coming from because in this kind of format, that’s not always as clear as we might think we’re being.

Not sure what you mean about labels but, yes, I do think you’ve taken a decidedly one-sided view of this and while I believe I understand why, we have some disagreements about that.

Could you explain how I’ve taken a “one sided” view, knowing what actions have occurred since October?

Would you think my views were just as one-sided if I had been complaining about the acts of the Nazis?

I’ll refer to efil’s post on warfare, not as an exoneration of Israel, but as a reality check of close quarters combat in a densely populated region. This was never not going to be extremely bloody war with many casualties. We agree that Israel is guilty of acting in bad faith and heavy-handed at times, but if there is a more measured approach that you think Israel should have taken / should be taking, that might be an area for us to find some agreement. I think it’s also important to remember that, like Israel, Hamas is a propaganda machine.

Do you not think that Israel’s larger goal is to destroy and occupy Gaza and the West Bank? There is evidence a mile long that basically aligns with Israel being propped up as a nation that speaks to a consistent theme of religious extremism.

I mean we could literally look at a shrinking map of Palestinian territory since the 40’s.

I’m not sure how Israel would destroy Hamas. But then again I’m also wondering why we aren’t asking about how the Palestinians destroy the IDF? They certainly have just as much right.

Ultimately, innocent people are going to suffer the most in these conflicts over power and religious views. I don’t think anyone should act like war is something outside the constraints of human ability to control. It’s incredibly sad and reflects poorly on the human race.

 

[Heathen]

Im sure many view it the same way.

Israels stated goal is to eliminate Hamas.

Hamas members moved into that same location.

The strike was not intended to kill as many civilians as possible to sow fear and chaos- it was intended to kill Hamas members.

What reason do you have to believe anything Israel says?

Not trying to be inflammatory, I’m genuinely curious.

 

[Incumbent]

It would be silly to only be interested in that timeline and act like all other history doesn’t matter. I’ve never argued that. I’m saying that this event matters in the context of all of that and can’t be handwaved away to “well both sides have their issues” because it takes away from the responsibility of convicting any side when they commit acts of terror.

Each event matters. It seems some here are conflating outrage, which is absolutely warranted, to one sided thinking.

If Israel has committed the majority of the atrocities against innocent lives since October 7th, I’m not sure why anyone would expect a “balanced” reaction to these everyday events in the sense that “but Hamas” was littered in every response - which some seem to want. It’s just not sensible. I have repeatedly said Hamas was guilty of their acts on Oct 7th. But Hamas hasn’t been committing acts like that nonstop since October. If they had, you bet your arse I’d be complaining pretty nonstop about Hamas too.





Could you explain how I’ve taken a “one sided” view, knowing what actions have occurred since October?

Would you think my views were just as one-sided if I had been complaining about the acts of the Nazis?



Do you not think that Israel’s larger goal is to destroy and occupy Gaza and the West Bank? There is evidence a mile long that basically aligns with Israel being propped up as a nation that speaks to a consistent theme of religious extremism.

I mean we could literally look at a shrinking map of Palestinian territory since the 40’s.

I’m not sure how Israel would destroy Hamas. But then again I’m also wondering why we aren’t asking about how the Palestinians destroy the IDF? They certainly have just as much right.

Ultimately, innocent people are going to suffer the most in these conflicts over power and religious views. I don’t think anyone should act like war is something outside the constraints of human ability to control. It’s incredibly sad and reflects poorly on the human race.

What terrorist group were the Nazis fighting?

 

[Incumbent]

What reason do you have to believe anything Israel says?

Not trying to be inflammatory, I’m genuinely curious.

What reason do you have to believe anything Hamas reports?

I don’t think either side can be trusted so unless there are independent, unbiased observers in the combat zone, we are left to trust what either side is willing to admit, or sort out who is telling the truth in their accusations.

As it is, I definitely think Israel is being reckless and not doing enough to spare innocent lives. I think it’s possible to believe that and also understand that a war being waged in a densely populated arena is going to result in a lot of casualties, regrettably.

This is two awful leaderships going at each other at a deadly cost.

 

[Heathen]

here is where i think things get blurred....Israel publicly and quite emphatically declared War on Hamas. Not a special military operation. Not a precision strike(s) campaign.
( and if i remember correct- the US actually asked Israel to conduct a "surgical strikes"( US loves this term ) type conflict to avoid collateral damage to which they said no )

Israel didnt cross into Palestine, kill, kidnap and maim as many as they could before retreating back into the safety of their land.

Thats terrorism. Thats not war.

This is definitely a good topic for debate

So are you saying by having a military and declaring war and declaring “careful intent”, one cannot by definition commit terrorist acts?

What Israel is doing now is waging an all out war on Hamas. They declared as much.

Why do you believe them?

Now, you can certainly debate the consequences of waging war, because of its brutality. But waging war, with a military that dwarfs your opposition isnt terrorism. It’s waging war with the upper hand.

Hamas didnt declare their Oct 7 attack publicly because had they, it wouldnt have gotten past the border. Hence the "terrorist" moniker.

What if my aim is to kill 5 of the worst people on Earth in a town of 10,000 people? Is killing 80% of that town to kill the 5 acceptable because “war is hard” and “bad things happen”?

Is that not terrorism?

Israel isnt waging terrorism, they are waging war. 1940s style - not something we have seen since then.

I don’t know what you mean by 1940’s style.

 

[Heathen]

What terrorist group were the Nazis fighting?

So as long as one is fighting a terrorist group or claims to be fighting one, purposefully executing tens of thousands of civilians is okay or permissible within the confines of war?

 

[efil4]

What reason do you have to believe anything Israel says?

Not trying to be inflammatory, I’m genuinely curious.

Hamas as repeatedly shown the world how they have no hesitation to operate within the safe zones using Palestinians as a human shield.

I dont need Israel to tell me how they operate. They operate in this manner, openly and without reservation for civilian lives.

 

[Incumbent]

So as long as one is fighting a terrorist group or claims to be fighting one, purposefully executing tens of thousands of civilians is okay or permissible within the confines of war?

I’m saying I don’t think the comparison you made to the Nazis is a good one.

I think very few people feel good about what is happening; I certainly don’t. I’d like to see it end immediately but that’s going to come down to Israel and Hamas, probably regardless of whatever pressure the global community can apply. I believe Hamas is just as responsible for the bloodshed and should surrender and release or account for hostages.