Israel vs Hamas (3 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[Incumbent]

Did I? Mind quoting me, I must have missed this.

Well, if you do actually understand that the people of Gaza will be worse off with Trump back in power, it brings into question how much you actually care about them.

 

[Heathen]

Well, if you do actually understand that the people of Gaza will be worse off with Trump back in power, it brings into question how much you actually care about them.

Does it? Why is that, specifically?

I don’t remember stating that I’d vote for Trump. But criticize Biden for objectively awful foreign policy blunders, and that seems to be what is pushed.

 

[Incumbent]

Does it? Why is that, specifically?

I don’t remember stating that I’d vote for Trump. But criticize Biden for objectively awful foreign policy blunders, and that seems to be what is pushed.

I understand you wouldn’t vote for Trump but it also seems clear you aren’t voting for Biden. Is that incorrect?

We did all this in 2016 and we see where that got us. Now we are on the brink. The repercussions of a Biden loss will be catastrophic. Assuming you actually are a progressive (or however you define your belief system) whatever is important to you will almost certainly be prevented from happening for a generation, perhaps even your lifetime. This isn’t politics as usual. Both parties aren’t the same.

I’m sure you’ve heard all this many times and either don’t believe it or don’t care because stubborn reasons.

 

[DaveXA]

Does it? Why is that, specifically?

I don’t remember stating that I’d vote for Trump. But criticize Biden for objectively awful foreign policy blunders, and that seems to be what is pushed.

I think it's perfectly fine to criticize Biden. He certainly has issues and I don't agree with a lot of what he says and does, but practically speaking, you have to work with the best possible realistic option when voting for a Presidential candidate. Simply put, there are 2 viable options, Trump or Biden. You can view it as either a vote against Trump, or a vote for Biden, or both. Unless you're in a state where the polling margins are well outside the margins of error, your vote matters. If your vote matters anything other than a vote for Biden is either a vote for Trump or a throw away vote.

Ultimately everyone has to do what's right for them, but I think the lines are clear here. After seeing what happened on 1/6 and the Republican party's refusal to hold Trump accountable, I can't in good conscience ever support them as they are now. And unfortunately, while we don't agree with everything Biden does, there's really no question when happens for me at the ballot box.

 

[Incumbent]

Too many people on the left complain about the candidates on the ballot but don’t get involved in all the hard work between elections to advance progressive ideas and candidates. (I’m not assuming that about anybody here, specifically, but in general). Complaining about the establishment but not joining state and county parties and being an actual hands-on voice for change contributes to the choices we have when elections come around.

I vote for the remaining candidates - whether progressive or more moderate - who most closely reflect what is important to me, and understand the importance of moving forward, even if that’s only disappointingly incremental. America will get through another four years of Biden okay. We won’t if it’s Trump.

 

[SamAndreas]

I think it's perfectly fine to criticize Biden. He certainly has issues and I don't agree with a lot of what he says and does, but practically speaking, you have to work with the best possible realistic option when voting for a Presidential candidate. Simply put, there are 2 viable options, Trump or Biden. You can view it as either a vote against Trump, or a vote for Biden, or both. Unless you're in a state where the polling margins are well outside the margins of error, your vote matters. If your vote matters anything other than a vote for Biden is either a vote for Trump or a throw away vote.

Ultimately everyone has to do what's right for them, but I think the lines are clear here. After seeing what happened on 1/6 and the Republican party's refusal to hold Trump accountable, I can't in good conscience ever support them as they are now. And unfortunately, while we don't agree with everything Biden does, there's really no question when happens for me at the ballot box.

Heathen is from Utah.

As Utah Phillips used to say "the only place to get virgin wool from is the sheep that can out run the Mormons and Republicans."

That doesn't have anything to do with this, but that is was what he would say. He also said "it takes three frogs to stay alive but two of them have to be doctors." That has more to do with this.

Imagine being from someplace where your side never ever wins a thing.

Which begs the question is Heathen a doctor?

 

[Incumbent]

Heathen is from Utah.

As Utah Phillips used to say "the only place to get virgin wool from is the sheep that can out run the Mormons and Republicans."

That doesn't have anything to do with this, but that is was what he would say. He also said "it takes three frogs to stay alive but two of them have to be doctors." That has more to do with this.

Imagine being from someplace where your side never ever wins a thing.

Which begs the question is Heathen a doctor?

It’s the frustrating scenario that votes often don’t matter. There are some problems with that thinking, though. Texas could very well be a purple state right now but voter turnout is typically low, though conservatives tend to be more reliable in showing up. Imagine if more centrists and leftists believed their vote mattered enough to go stand in line.

But even if our vote might not matter, our words can. The jaded Alabama voter who spends her time arguing against the election options might help convince a Michigan voter not to bother. Social media amplifies opinions into movements in ways that used to not exist. Obviously people are free to express themselves, but information drives election outcomes in defining ways, and we have to recognize that.

 

[SamAndreas]

It’s the frustrating scenario that votes often don’t matter. There are some problems with that thinking, though. Texas could very well be a purple state right now but voter turnout is typically low, though conservatives tend to be more reliable in showing up. Imagine if more centrists and leftists believed their vote mattered enough to go stand in line.

But even if our vote might not matter, our words can. The jaded Alabama voter who spends her time arguing against the election options might help convince a Michigan voter not to bother. Social media amplifies opinions into movements in ways that used to not exist. Obviously people are free to express themselves, but information drives election outcomes in defining ways, and we have to recognize that.

Here where I am my vote for statewide offices are the only one which will count. The local and district races will go to the Republicans who fester these hills.

If I went 30 miles down into the central valley I could find a district where only Democrats can win, or travel a few more miles and be in the red district that that Devin Nunes's Cow once represented.


I think there's power in party unity. A vote for Biden even when it comes in from Utah is what fuels the party's bandwagon steam calliope.

Like this:



So it's important.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Did I? Mind quoting me, I must have missed this.

Like I said, you haven't said it directly, but it seems to be the gist of everything you say.

Please take this opportunity to make it bluntly clear to me what you think, sometimes I have to be hit between the eyes with a two by four with someone's point for me to get it.

Do you think that the people of Gaza, and the people in and around Israel who are not Jewish, would be worse off with Trump as president than they are with Biden as president?

 

[LA - L.A.]

But even if our vote might not matter, our words can. The jaded Alabama voter who spends her time arguing against the election options might help convince a Michigan voter not to bother. Social media amplifies opinions into movements in ways that used to not exist. Obviously people are free to express themselves, but information drives election outcomes in defining ways, and we have to recognize that.

This is the point I'm trying to make. There are a lot of people who have decided not to vote for Biden that are doing more than just not voting for Biden. They harp on how bad Biden is every chance they get which has the same effect as trying to persuade people not to vote for Biden, whether it is intentional or not.

I'm not just telling people I'm going to vote for Biden. I'm trying to convince everyone to vote for Biden. I own that and don't try to hide that.

Someone choosing not to vote for Biden is very different from someone constantly arguing that they can't bring themselves to vote for Biden because of terrible things he has or hasn't done. When a person starts doing that, they are effectively campaigning against Biden, whether they intend to or not.

Anyone campaigning against Biden is effectively campaigning for Trump, whether they intend to or not.

Everyone has a right to campaign for whoever they want. All I ask is to acknowledge it and own it. I don't have any more tolerance or trust for ambiguity, because too many people deceptively hide behind ambiguity these days.

 

[Heathen]

Like I said, you haven't said it directly, but it seems to be the gist of everything you say.

Please take this opportunity to make it bluntly clear to me what you think, sometimes I have to be hit between the eyes with a two by four with someone's point for me to get it.

Do you think that the people of Gaza, and the people in and around Israel who are not Jewish, would be worse off with Trump as president than they are with Biden as president?

I never said that Trump wouldn’t be worse. I’m sure that he very well would, there’s evidence that certainly supports that - especially his most recent comments.

What I have said is that things in Gaza with Biden are as bad as Sam mentioned things with Trump could be, which was ironic.

What I have said is that I don’t think I can vote for Biden, though my specific situation won’t matter as I am in a red state where statistically it hasn’t been close and won’t be close this year either. I also challenge the notion that there is no reason for any American who values human rights not to vote for Biden, especially in the case that you are Palestinian-American. I can’t speak for all cases, and I think doing so in an absolutist manner is a slippery slope.

I do think that Biden is clearly a better option than Trump, but I think many are still struggling with having to be forced to vote for a clear enabler of genocide on one side vs a person thirsty to do that and usher in a theocracy. It’s not an instant decision for many. I think that needs to be empathized with, even if one thinks it’s an “easy” choice. I also think name calling or disparaging other voters over this is not helpful.

Biden IMHO deserves every bit of hate he is getting for supporting the mass slaughter and destruction / takeover by the terrorist IDF. Every damn bit. Just as Bush can’t simply be written off as this sweet, mild-mannered grandfather type with a newfound interest in paintings when he initiated the death of around 100,000 Iraqis. Either we care about those issues or we ignore them because “it happens” and “war” and sweep clear acts of terror under the rug when WE initiate it or aid it, and cry wolf when others do it to us. It’s clear hypocrisy.

In case of the Israeli genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza— From my vantage point at least, this is the American war machine, which is clearly apolitical and liberal from the capitalist sense - giving the finger to every American citizen who doesn’t want this to be the face of our country. I’m sorry, I can’t just “get over” that any more than I can just “get over” things like Abu Ghairab or American citizens slaughtered by the American military with a drone during the Obama admin. There hasn’t been an American president who hasn’t in some way been involved in these sort of activities in a long time. It has nothing to do for me with political ‘sides’.

So it’s a bit of a difficult situation that I’m not sure I completely know the best outcome to based upon what I want personally (which let’s be honest, no one ever fully gets). The best outcome is that Biden wins and forces Israel to accept a 2 state solution. Unfortunately, many of us seeing the writing on the wall and the trend of what the US has actually done or not done know that this isn’t going to happen — so either way if you care about how we treat the Palestinian people, there seems to be no real winning strategy.

I don’t think anyone here or in this country can honestly and with a straight face tell a Palestinian who’s family has been slaughtered and their homeland reduced to rubble that “hey, we saved you some heartache by not letting Trump in”. It’s a ludicrous situation to even consider.

The best millions like me can hope for who are left but beleaguered with the American liberal experiment is to continue to vote in those that hold our views and as always - if they support aiding terrorist foreign governments like Biden & Co or the many other Dems in Congress, vote like absolute hell against them when it matters.

I think you’ll find most don’t want to burn down the Democratic Party, we just are tired of it being so much like the Republican Party - where a list of issues where they are so similar or refuse to distinguish themselves is a separate discussion, I’ve tangential’d a bit too much from the original topic already.

Not sure if that helps?

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Ultimately everyone has to do what's right for them, but I think the lines are clear here. After seeing what happened on 1/6 and the Republican party's refusal to hold Trump accountable, I can't in good conscience ever support them as they are now. And unfortunately, while we don't agree with everything Biden does, there's really no question when happens for me at the ballot box.

I'm seriously considering casting a protest vote. But I can get away with it being here in Louisiana. Trump could be dead and six feet under and he still wins this state by double digits (I shake my head at the thought of it).

If I lived in a state that mattered there's no doubt who I vote for.

(Another reason to trash the Electoral College.)

 

[Incumbent]

I'm seriously considering casting a protest vote. But I can get away with it being here in Louisiana. Trump could be dead and six feet under and he still wins this state by double digits (I shake my head at the thought of it).

If I lived in a state that mattered there's no doubt who I vote for.

(Another reason to trash the Electoral College.)

Agree about the electoral college but we don’t have to play into its fundamental faults. Knowing what we know, I think it’s extremely important that Biden rack up as many votes as possible. The rejection of Trump and MAGA needs to be loud and clear. A hopeful Biden victory needs to be supported by as strong of numbers as possible for the inevitable challenges and fallout.

I honestly cannot believe we are even having these same kinds of debates as 2016. Gaza is a tragedy because of Hamas and Israel. Biden and the rest of the world might not be rising to the challenge in all the ways they should or could, but this is primarily the result of decades of middle eastern conflict that isn’t ending anytime soon.

Hamas should surrender immediately and the process should unfold from there.

 

[DaveXA]

I'm seriously considering casting a protest vote. But I can get away with it being here in Louisiana. Trump could be dead and six feet under and he still wins this state by double digits (I shake my head at the thought of it).

If I lived in a state that mattered there's no doubt who I vote for.

(Another reason to trash the Electoral College.)

Agreed. I live in Virginia, and it's a fairly purple state overall. Republican governor, and the Presidential elections have been somewhat closely contested, so voting for Biden is a no-brainer, but if it's a state where the outcome isn't remotely in question, I certainly would consider a protest vote.

 

[SamAndreas]

I never said that Trump wouldn’t be worse. I’m sure that he very well would, there’s evidence that certainly supports that - especially his most recent comments.

What I have said is that things in Gaza with Biden are as bad as Sam mentioned things with Trump could be, which was ironic.

What I have said is that I don’t think I can vote for Biden, though my specific situation won’t matter as I am in a red state where statistically it hasn’t been close and won’t be close this year either. I also challenge the notion that there is no reason for any American who values human rights not to vote for Biden, especially in the case that you are Palestinian-American. I can’t speak for all cases, and I think doing so in an absolutist manner is a slippery slope.

I do think that Biden is clearly a better option than Trump, but I think many are still struggling with having to be forced to vote for a clear enabler of genocide on one side vs a person thirsty to do that and usher in a theocracy. It’s not an instant decision for many. I think that needs to be empathized with, even if one thinks it’s an “easy” choice. I also think name calling or disparaging other voters over this is not helpful.

Biden IMHO deserves every bit of hate he is getting for supporting the mass slaughter and destruction / takeover by the terrorist IDF. Every damn bit. Just as Bush can’t simply be written off as this sweet, mild-mannered grandfather type with a newfound interest in paintings when he initiated the death of around 100,000 Iraqis. Either we care about those issues or we ignore them because “it happens” and “war” and sweep clear acts of terror under the rug when WE initiate it or aid it, and cry wolf when others do it to us. It’s clear hypocrisy.

In case of the Israeli genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza— From my vantage point at least, this is the American war machine, which is clearly apolitical and liberal from the capitalist sense - giving the finger to every American citizen who doesn’t want this to be the face of our country. I’m sorry, I can’t just “get over” that any more than I can just “get over” things like Abu Ghairab or American citizens slaughtered by the American military with a drone during the Obama admin. There hasn’t been an American president who hasn’t in some way been involved in these sort of activities in a long time. It has nothing to do for me with political ‘sides’.

So it’s a bit of a difficult situation that I’m not sure I completely know the best outcome to based upon what I want personally (which let’s be honest, no one ever fully gets). The best outcome is that Biden wins and forces Israel to accept a 2 state solution. Unfortunately, many of us seeing the writing on the wall and the trend of what the US has actually done or not done know that this isn’t going to happen — so either way if you care about how we treat the Palestinian people, there seems to be no real winning strategy.

I don’t think anyone here or in this country can honestly and with a straight face tell a Palestinian who’s family has been slaughtered and their homeland reduced to rubble that “hey, we saved you some heartache by not letting Trump in”. It’s a ludicrous situation to even consider.

The best millions like me can hope for who are left but beleaguered with the American liberal experiment is to continue to vote in those that hold our views and as always - if they support aiding terrorist foreign governments like Biden & Co or the many other Dems in Congress, vote like absolute hell against them when it matters.

I think you’ll find most don’t want to burn down the Democratic Party, we just are tired of it being so much like the Republican Party - where a list of issues where they are so similar or refuse to distinguish themselves is a separate discussion, I’ve tangential’d a bit too much from the original topic already.

Not sure if that helps?

I think I located the crux of it which is interfering with our communication. I'll past it here incase it doesn't show in the quote box once I post it:

"Biden IMHO deserves every bit of hate he is getting for supporting the mass slaughter and destruction."

The one and only issue we face this next election is Biden Vs. TRump. Not at about Gaza at all. Pity it is that way, but it is that way.

My issue is that WE don't deserve every bit of hate that Biden is getting from you. You say Biden deserves that hate, why in the hell are you trying to hand the downside effect of that hate you feel off on the Democrat (tribe).

If your trail leads you to leave the Democratic party, (our tribe), or quite possibly in this case have never join our (tribe), it sounds like you are a good Green Party (tribe) person.

When I was in Montana i was in the "blue" part of the state and the Democrat (tribe) there had kind of reached a working relationship with the Green Party (tribe).

The Green Party (tribe) got the local city council jurisdiction, while the big tent Democratic party (tribe) got the state and federal jurisdiction. We were in essence aligned tribes.

When I was there the Green Party local (tribe) was my tribe for city council races in Missoula, when I lived in Missoula. We licked the Republicans in town and sent them packing. That election we as Democrats also won a house seat and one senatorial race. on the federal side. It was quite a feat for Montana.

I only got to vote in the Missiola elections that one time, after that I was in a county further south and there the Republicans ruled.

 

[Heathen]

My issue is that WE don't deserve every bit of hate that Biden is getting from you. You say Biden deserves that hate, why in the hell are you trying to hand the downside effect of that hate you feel off on the Democrat (tribe).

If your trail leads you to leave the Democratic party, (our tribe), or quite possibly in this case have never join our (tribe), it sounds like you are a good Green Party (tribe) person.

Strong feelings on important matters that watch affect all of us negatively, in summation.

There are many posters I’ve seen that hold opinions that are very much antithetical to mine. I ignore them, mostly.

We are discussing topics that many of us care about that are political in nature. If critiquing candidates of one’s own party for bad policies that greatly affect American lives is discouraged on this site, maybe id missed that. I’d be happy to abide by site rules if you think I’m violating them.

 

[Neworleansfan]

I think it's perfectly fine to criticize Biden. He certainly has issues and I don't agree with a lot of what he says and does, but practically speaking, you have to work with the best possible realistic option when voting for a Presidential candidate. Simply put, there are 2 viable options, Trump or Biden. You can view it as either a vote against Trump, or a vote for Biden, or both. Unless you're in a state where the polling margins are well outside the margins of error, your vote matters. If your vote matters anything other than a vote for Biden is either a vote for Trump or a throw away vote.

Ultimately everyone has to do what's right for them, but I think the lines are clear here. After seeing what happened on 1/6 and the Republican party's refusal to hold Trump accountable, I can't in good conscience ever support them as they are now. And unfortunately, while we don't agree with everything Biden does, there's really no question when happens for me at the ballot box.

This is where I am at. There is no way I am voting for that Orange convict or any Republican idiots even though my vote won’t count because I am in Louisiana.

 

[Heathen]

I'm seriously considering casting a protest vote. But I can get away with it being here in Louisiana. Trump could be dead and six feet under and he still wins this state by double digits (I shake my head at the thought of it).

If I lived in a state that mattered there's no doubt who I vote for.

(Another reason to trash the Electoral College.)

Agreed, in Utah. Though I think we have some bright young Democratic senators coming up I’ll be voting for.