Israel vs Hamas (1 Viewer)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

We clearly aren't holding a set of "facts" in common. You say negative stuff about Biden I don't believe at all. State it as facts when it actually is contrived narrative to support an impossible position.

Sorry, we can't communicate if we don't hold the most of "facts" in common, and have some kind of disconnect when it comes to spotting narrative which is trying to pretend to be "facts."

Most of what you said is narrative.

I'm angry about the US's and Biden administration's handling of Israel's invasion of Gaza.

Things would get much worse for the Palestinians and other non-Jewish people in and around Israel if Trump wins the presidency.

I'm skeptical of anyone who claims to genuinely believe that Biden is just as bad for the Palestinians and other non-Jewish people in and around Israel as Trump would be.

To claim that it's nonsense that Trump would be worse than Biden, that's the actual nonsense.

Trump as president would be much worse as than Biden as president for the Palestinians and other non-Jewish people.

Anyone who truly cares about the welfare of the Palestinians should be calling for voting for Biden, as imperfect as he is, to make sure that Trump doesn't win.

I know I'm voting for Biden, even though I don't agree with the current policies regarding Gaza.

 

[SamAndreas]

I'm angry about the US's and Biden administration's handling of Israel's invasion of Gaza.

Things would get much worse for the Palestinians and other non-Jewish people in and around Israel if Trump wins the presidency.

I'm skeptical of anyone who claims to genuinely believe that Biden is just as bad for the Palestinians and other non-Jewish people in and around Israel as Trump would be.

To claim that it's nonsense that Trump would be worse than Biden, that's the actual nonsense.

Trump as president would be much worse as than Biden as president for the Palestinians and other non-Jewish people.

Anyone who truly cares about the welfare of the Palestinians should be calling for voting for Biden, as imperfect as he is, to make sure that Trump doesn't win.

I know I'm voting for Biden, even though I don't agree with the current policies regarding Gaza.

Yes.

 

[Heathen]

We clearly aren't holding a set of "facts" in common. You say negative stuff about Biden I don't believe at all. State it as facts when it actually is contrived narrative to support an impossible position.

Sorry, we can't communicate if we don't hold the most of "facts" in common, and have some kind of disconnect when it comes to spotting narrative which is trying to pretend to be "facts."

Most of what you said is narrative.

Let’s take an example: You had earlier, maybe a page or so back, said that a slide type visual was pushing a “narrative” when all of the information in that slide was factual, you just didn’t seem to like the tone.

So I ask you: What specific instances of what I’ve said about the Biden admin’s actions haven’t been fully factual or have I been trying to masquerade as such?

 

[Heathen]

I'm skeptical of anyone who claims to genuinely believe that Biden is just as bad for the Palestinians and other non-Jewish people in and around Israel as Trump would be.

I didn’t say Biden was just as bad. I pointed out that all of the terrible things Sam mentioned Trump would do if elected that would harm the Palestinian people, Biden has already let happen. And I shouldn’t have to say this because I’d hope most are privy to the daily carnage happening in Gaza, but it’s not hyperbole. At all.

I don’t think I’d be able to tell a Palestinian-American who’s family in Gaza had just been killed by bombs the Biden Administration had sent to Israel to turn around and vote for the same administration “because it could be a lot worse” and tell them “you’re being a single issue voter”. It seems there’s a hell of a lot of privilege in holding that stance.

So we talk about skepticism? That should scenario be ringing the bell of moral dilemma in one’s own head, too.

This topic is much broader than simply who one will vote for in 2024, and involves historical events and movements that have preceded it by decades.

 

[Lapaz]

Thanks for your responses.

I’ll summarize a few things because at some point the quoting feature on this site while helpful is tough to read at least on mobile.

I am absolutely supporting the Palestinians. I would support the Israelis if this sort of thing was happening to them. In this sort of situation where human life is being taken so nonchalantly and with cheers of soldiers and Israeli people (look up Israelis celebrating the Rafah tent camp massacre a few days ago) — we must be on the side of the oppressed. Children didn’t deserve this. Nobody did. But especially the babies.

When you say a bomb was dropped “intending to kill Hamas operatives” you seem to be trusting that the IOF isn’t trying to do what they’ve shown they’ll do the last 8 months, which is purposefully target civilians. They can say “Hamas” was there all they want. I don’t believe them. The evidence amounts to not believe them.

Re: Reoccupation of Gaza: We can talk more about this when Israel starts using bulldozers to clear areas for luxury homes, especially beachfront (they’ve already planned this extensively). They have also started a clear initiative to remove Palestinians from their homes brutally in the West Bank, where most agree there are no Hamas members. I guess I’m wondering what it would take for you to believe that it will happen?

I’ve brought up the fact that this is a genocide consistently and you’ve disagreed pretty consistently. I have given the definition of the word and not seen (maybe I missed it) any rebuttal at least in the definition sense. I pose a hypothetical: If a large group of people are killed by another, and the whole world and media say “it’s not a terrorist attack”, does this mean the event and definition are any less fitting? Legal experts from around the world have said that this event does in fact meet the definition of a genocide. I guess I’m still stumped as to why this is not the case. It can’t just be “I disagree” if we’re talking about a case meeting a definition of a case.

I guess finally one thing I’ll say that has stuck out to me is seeing a man holding the lifeless body of a child with no head, in anguish. Biden repeated the “40 beheaded Israeli babies” lie about Hamas’ actions on Oct 7th as POTUS which was found to be propaganda.

This in no way shape or form excuses any Hamas action nor is that the intention - but I think we both know why Biden hasn’t spoken up about the Palestinian child. And just a day or two ago, after Israel have killed 100 in 3 days, John Kirby repeated loud and proud that Israel had not crossed any red line.

What’s happening in Gaza is horrible. I think Israel has killed far too many civilians, but I also think Palestinians haven’t done enough to segregate their civilians from Hamas. I think both sides are at fault. I understand that Palestinians are the ones predominantly dying, and are far less capable, so we justifiably callout Israel. I know Biden has been slow to act, but it is crazy to use this issue as your vote determinant, because Trump would not restrain Israel, and this is a binary choice. Until we have ranked choice, voting for anyone other than a Democrat or Republican is just a wasted protest. If you prefer the Republican, fine, but if you don’t, voting or not voting for anyone other than the Democrat will help the Republican. I share most of your outrage against Israeli’s prosecution of the war and Biden’s acquiescence, but the battle on our home front takes precedence. If we lose that, our opinions will matter even less in the future. I think they will come to an agreement partly due to the pressure Biden is putting on Israel. I think this will be settled before the election. It should not factor into who leads the US.

 

[SamAndreas]

Let’s take an example: You had earlier, maybe a page or so back, said that a slide type visual was pushing a “narrative” when all of the information in that slide was factual, you just didn’t seem to like the tone.

So I ask you: What specific instances of what I’ve said about the Biden admin’s actions haven’t been fully factual or have I been trying to masquerade as such?

If I don't like the tone of an article that's all it takes for me to pitch it in this latter day and age.

Outside of my house I have 25 acres of real weeds I've been mowing at, and will be mowing at, for most of the last month, and will be mowing all I can for the next whole month.

When I post here I'm taking a break from literally being out there in the heat of day, knee deep out in 25 acres of real tall weeds. Those acres contain real snakes in the real grass. Real lizards too.

I don't want to chop them up with my real weed mower.

Thanks for being interested in my specific instances and complaints regarding when I've found myself out wading through the metaphorical knee deep tall weeds off to the side of a metaphorically paved road.

I'd rather not engage in medphorpical weed mowing while taking a break from my real weed mowing.

 

[SamAndreas]

 

[Heathen]

If I don't like the tone of an article that's all it takes for me to pitch it in this latter day and age.

Fine by me. I’m just telling you that looking past perceived “tone”, there may be tough truths that are ignored if information is tossed at the slightest hint of challenge to one’s own belief.

 

[Heathen]

What’s happening in Gaza is horrible. I think Israel has killed far too many civilians, but I also think Palestinians haven’t done enough to segregate their civilians from Hamas. I think both sides are at fault. I understand that Palestinians are the ones predominantly dying, and are far less capable, so we justifiably callout Israel. I know Biden has been slow to act, but it is crazy to use this issue as your vote determinant, because Trump would not restrain Israel, and this is a binary choice. Until we have ranked choice, voting for anyone other than a Democrat or Republican is just a wasted protest. If you prefer the Republican, fine, but if you don’t, voting or not voting for anyone other than the Democrat will help the Republican. I share most of your outrage against Israeli’s prosecution of the war and Biden’s acquiescence, but the battle on our home front takes precedence. If we lose that, our opinions will matter even less in the future. I think they will come to an agreement partly due to the pressure Biden is putting on Israel. I think this will be settled before the election. It should not factor into who leads the US.

Thanks for your input. I share a good bit of these feelings, but I can’t in good conscience vilify those who use their votes how they personally see fit - at least in terms of not voting for either candidate (not saying you are, just that this attitude seems to be growing). Everyone has their reasons and though some of them I can’t really fathom - that is in the end their choice.

That being said, if I was in a swing state, I’d consider a blue vote. It won’t be close, though, so I am leaning toward Green Party.

I think whether Biden wins or loses in November is largely up to how his administration has motivated his base. It’s definitely not all about the genocide issue, but it’s factually a big issue for a growing number in his base. I think he’s conflicted because he wants to continue being pals with Netanyahu but also wants to win in November.

If he’s done enough to win enough voters over, he’ll win - if not (and I’m seeing this as more likely at the moment) he will lose. I just think it doesn’t speak well of the Democratic Party platform in 2024 that the next matchup with Trump isn’t supposed to be an absolute blowout. Losing to a convicted felon wouldn’t be a great look.

Lastly, yes, a Democratic win though the party is too conservative for me is easily better than a GOP one.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I didn’t say Biden was just as bad.

You haven't directly or vebatim said that "Biden is just as bad as Trump" for the people of Gaza.

What you have said is that the people of Gaza would not be worse off with Trump as president instead of Biden.

So that's clearly an indirect way of saying that Biden is just as bad for the people of Gaza as Trump would be.


If you don't vote for Biden and Trump wins, what exactly do you think you've accomplished in regards to helping to ease the suffering of the people in Gaza?

I mean that's the point, right? To do what best eases the suffering of the people of Gaza?

Trump winning the election would directly result in an intense increase in the suffering of the people of Gaza, as well as everyone else in and around Israel who is not a extremist, radical Jewish person.

Trump winning the election over Biden directly leads to an intense increase in human suffering in Gaza and across the whole planet.

Biden must win against Trump if we want to prevent and decrease human suffering in Gaza and throughout the world.

I personally care about all the world's people as much as I do about the people of Gaza.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Fine by me. I’m just telling you that looking past perceived “tone”, there may be tough truths that are ignored if information is tossed at the slightest hint of challenge to one’s own belief.

A common mistake that people make is to think that we know everything that any presidential administration is doing. We never have and we never will.

The common mistake that is being made regarding the tragedy in Gaza is that we know everything the Biden administration is doing to ease the suffering of the people in Gaza. We never have and we never will.

Taking what has been reported and assuming that is all that the Biden administration is doing is a mistake that keeps getting made.

Secondly, the Biden administration doesn't have much control over the tragedy in Gaza.

The Biden administration can't refuse to send Congressionally mandated aid to Israel, just like they can't send aid to Ukraine without Congressional approval.

The Biden administration can't force Israel to do or not do anything without ignoring Israel's sovereignty which would trigger a global war, exactly what Putin's Russia is hoping for. Putin's Russia needs a global war to fully enact it's plans, but they don't want to be the one to start it.

What exactly has the Biden administration not done that they have the power to do? What are the negative consequences of them not taking that action? What are the negative consequences of them taking that action?

The problem with the mentally of single issue voting is that it only looks at a sliver of that single issue in a vacuum. Vacuums don't exist in the real world. Everything is intertwined and affects everything else.

The tunnel blind mentality is how authoritarians want people to see the world, because people having a single issue mentality is the only way the authoritarians can get away with their BS.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I just think it doesn’t speak well of the Democratic Party platform in 2024 that the next matchup with Trump isn’t supposed to be an absolute blowout.

Lastly, yes, a Democratic win though the party is too conservative for me is easily better than a GOP one.

The above comments are exactly why Biden want blowout Trump. It has a lot less to do with what the Biden administration has or hasn't done and has a lot more to do with the mentality of too many voters.

You acknowledge that even though it's not perfect for you, a Democratic party is easily better than a Republican party win. You can't even bring yourself to say that a Biden win is easily better than a Trump win, even though that's the actual choice we have.

Too many voters are disgruntled with Biden simply because Biden hasn't done everything they want, exactly how they want it done, and exactly when they want it done. Too many voters acknowledge that Biden is easily better than Trump, but turn around to say they won't vote for him because of not getting exactly what they want on one or a couple of specific issues. In the early days of the tragedy in Gaza, even I let my emotions get the best of me and said I wouldn't vote for Biden because of his handling of Gaza. I still have the same feelings about the tragedy in Gaza, but I'm not going to let those feelings lead me into voting in a way that could make things much worse for everyone on the planet.

Too many of us vote like we are spoiled, petulant children who out of spite, over not getting everything we want, will vote in a way that makes things much worse for everyone.

Voting should be based on what is the best path toward the solutions that we seek, not "screw you for not doing everything I want." Never lose sight of the fact that a lot of people who vote for Trump vote for him out of spite and with full knowledge that he's destructive for everyone. A lot of people who vote for Trump want Trump to destroy America, that's their point. They don't like how things are going in their life, so they want to ruin everything for everyone.

We need mandatory emotional and behavioral health support across the entire planet. Our species will not survive without it.

 

[Incumbent]

I'm angry about the US's and Biden administration's handling of Israel's invasion of Gaza.

Things would get much worse for the Palestinians and other non-Jewish people in and around Israel if Trump wins the presidency.

I'm skeptical of anyone who claims to genuinely believe that Biden is just as bad for the Palestinians and other non-Jewish people in and around Israel as Trump would be.

To claim that it's nonsense that Trump would be worse than Biden, that's the actual nonsense.

Trump as president would be much worse as than Biden as president for the Palestinians and other non-Jewish people.

Anyone who truly cares about the welfare of the Palestinians should be calling for voting for Biden, as imperfect as he is, to make sure that Trump doesn't win.

I know I'm voting for Biden, even though I don't agree with the current policies regarding Gaza.

If Trump wins, the fate of Palestinians will be just one of a rapid cascade of problems. Enormous damage has already been done because Trump was able to fill three SCOTUS vacancies. The havoc he and Republicans will wreak should be alarming to any decent person who cares about other people. Here at home and globally.

I don’t love the way the U.S. has supported Israel but I don’t think any better of radical Islam and the terror it has inflicted on the Middle East and elsewhere. I think there is an oversimplification occurring on the complex and longstanding conflicts in the Middle East to fit an agenda. Part of that agenda is to oust Biden.

If American democracy dies - and I don’t think that is at all hyperbole while Republicans are signaling very clearly that’s their objective - there won’t be another America out there to save us or come to any other people’s aid. Imagine somebody like Hitler without a strong allied coalition standing against them.

Once again we are up against stubborn political hardliners and purity tests at a time when the consequences are terrifying and there won’t be excuses this time. We know who Trump is and we know what Republicans are working hard to accomplish.

Democrats will never have a candidate who doesn’t alienate some part of the base because the left is a tenuous coalition of varied interests. It’s a damn myth that somebody like Bernie Sanders is some kind of broad appeal unifier. He isn’t. There isn’t one. Biden is in an impossible situation over a war that I believe was started, in large part, to put him in exactly this situation. He risks angering swaths of voters no matter how he responds.

I haven’t generally been a big Biden fan but I’m surprised at a lot of what he’s been able to accomplish under very difficult circumstances. I wish we had somebody younger and more openly progressive but voters have rejected those kinds of candidates in presidential primaries. The people have spoken.

Either Biden or Trump will be the next president. Wish all anybody wants that there was another viable option, there isn’t. Every single person who doesn’t vote for Biden will be responsible for the carnage of a second Trump term and our descent into authoritarianism that we won’t simply be voting our way out of in four years.

 

[LA - L.A.]

If Trump wins, the fate of Palestinians will be just one of a rapid cascade of problems. Enormous damage has already been done because Trump was able to fill three SCOTUS vacancies. The havoc he and Republicans will wreak should be alarming to any decent person who cares about other people. Here at home and globally.

I don’t love the way the U.S. has supported Israel but I don’t think any better of radical Islam and the terror it has inflicted on the Middle East and elsewhere. I think there is an oversimplification occurring on the complex and longstanding conflicts in the Middle East to fit an agenda. Part of that agenda is to oust Biden.

If American democracy dies - and I don’t think that is at all hyperbole while Republicans are signaling very clearly that’s their objective - there won’t be another America out there to save us or come to any other people’s aid. Imagine somebody like Hitler without a strong allied coalition standing against them.

Once again we are up against stubborn political hardliners and purity tests at a time when the consequences are terrifying and there won’t be excuses this time. We know who Trump is and we know what Republicans are working hard to accomplish.

Democrats will never have a candidate who doesn’t alienate some part of the base because the left is a tenuous coalition of varied interests. It’s a damn myth that somebody like Bernie Sanders is some kind of broad appeal unifier. He isn’t. There isn’t one. Biden is in an impossible situation over a war that I believe was started, in large part, to put him in exactly this situation. He risks angering swaths of voters no matter how he responds.

I haven’t been a big Biden fan but I’m surprised at a lot of what he’s been able to accomplish under very difficult circumstances. I wish we had somebody younger and more openly progressive but voters have rejected those kinds of candidates in presidential primaries. The people have spoken.

Either Biden or Trump will be the next president. Wish all anybody wants that there was another viable option, there isn’t. Every single person who doesn’t vote for Biden will be responsible for the carnage of a second Trump term and our descent into authoritarianism that we won’t simply be voting our way out of in four years.

Trump as president is a threat to humanity everywhere on the planet, not just in the US and in Gaza.

 

[Incumbent]

Trump as president is a threat to humanity everywhere on the planet, not just in the US and in Gaza.

Exactly.

 

[SamAndreas]

Fine by me. I’m just telling you that looking past perceived “tone”, there may be tough truths that are ignored if information is tossed at the slightest hint of challenge to one’s own belief.

Evaluating "Tone" is essential for understanding the bias of the author or the person speaking.

Time is what causes most of what I discard to be discarded without reading. The lack of time to read more of the volume of information about a topic is the major driving factor.

The few articles where I find the tone objectionable amounts to only a tiny little bit of that immense total I cannot read due to time constraint. In the trash it goes.

It would be silly to suggest that I ought to read the articles where the tone suggested a strong bias, when there are so many thousands of articles I never will have the time to consider reading at all.

I have to choose what to read, so I choose what to read. Choosing to read all of it just because it might contain a pearl of hidden wisdom is not an option.

 

[SamAndreas]

 

[Heathen]

You haven't directly or vebatim said that "Biden is just as bad as Trump" for the people of Gaza.

What you have said is that the people of Gaza would not be worse off with Trump as president instead of Biden.

Did I? Mind quoting me, I must have missed this.