Israel vs Hamas (4 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[Heathen]

DaveXA

Thanks for your responses.

I’ll summarize a few things because at some point the quoting feature on this site while helpful is tough to read at least on mobile.

I am absolutely supporting the Palestinians. I would support the Israelis if this sort of thing was happening to them. In this sort of situation where human life is being taken so nonchalantly and with cheers of soldiers and Israeli people (look up Israelis celebrating the Rafah tent camp massacre a few days ago) — we must be on the side of the oppressed. Children didn’t deserve this. Nobody did. But especially the babies.

When you say a bomb was dropped “intending to kill Hamas operatives” you seem to be trusting that the IOF isn’t trying to do what they’ve shown they’ll do the last 8 months, which is purposefully target civilians. They can say “Hamas” was there all they want. I don’t believe them. The evidence amounts to not believe them.

Re: Reoccupation of Gaza: We can talk more about this when Israel starts using bulldozers to clear areas for luxury homes, especially beachfront (they’ve already planned this extensively). They have also started a clear initiative to remove Palestinians from their homes brutally in the West Bank, where most agree there are no Hamas members. I guess I’m wondering what it would take for you to believe that it will happen?

I’ve brought up the fact that this is a genocide consistently and you’ve disagreed pretty consistently. I have given the definition of the word and not seen (maybe I missed it) any rebuttal at least in the definition sense. I pose a hypothetical: If a large group of people are killed by another, and the whole world and media say “it’s not a terrorist attack”, does this mean the event and definition are any less fitting? Legal experts from around the world have said that this event does in fact meet the definition of a genocide. I guess I’m still stumped as to why this is not the case. It can’t just be “I disagree” if we’re talking about a case meeting a definition of a case.

I guess finally one thing I’ll say that has stuck out to me is seeing a man holding the lifeless body of a child with no head, in anguish. Biden repeated the “40 beheaded Israeli babies” lie about Hamas’ actions on Oct 7th as POTUS which was found to be propaganda.

This in no way shape or form excuses any Hamas action nor is that the intention - but I think we both know why Biden hasn’t spoken up about the Palestinian child. And just a day or two ago, after Israel have killed 100 in 3 days, John Kirby repeated loud and proud that Israel had not crossed any red line.

 

[Heathen]

I'm responding to an ununderstandable where the outcome is beyond my power in the only way I can, with a great deal of disconnect.

I suppose I don’t know what about this particular event is ununderstandable. But I feel the powerlessness. And what can most of us do if money and power are the primary drivers of our nation?

It is easy to feel helpless.

 

[bird]

It is interesting that the war that broke out after the state of Israel was declared did not disguise that the goal was not to help the Palestinian people.

I have stated elsewhere and possibly here that I have no use for those holding power in Israel nor for Hamas or Hezbollah or any of the religionist governments.

I care only about the people.

Israel has made the same mistake that the U.S. made in Vietnam. The crushing casualties show that the Israeli government deems the lives of those in Gaza are worth far less than the lives of Israelis.

Hamas has show that every religionist government in the Middleeast is not about Islam because God has not willed their actions. They simply seek power and engage in extreme tribalism in doing so.

Fork them all.

 

[SamAndreas]

I suppose I don’t know what about this particular event is ununderstandable. But I feel the powerlessness. And what can most of us do if money and power are the primary drivers of our nation?

It is easy to feel helpless.

Nothing is all that EASY when one has flaming arthritis in their 65 year old big toe joint on their right foot.

I don't feel helpless, I realize that I cannot project power across the high seas. It's a practical limit not an indictment.

 

[Heathen]

Nothing is all that EASY when one has flaming arthritis in their 65 year old big toe joint on their right foot.

I don't feel helpless, I realize that I cannot project power across the high seas. It's a practical limit not an indictment.

I hear that, I really do. Arthritis is no fun, I’ve had the “lower spine of an 80 year old” (per my neurosurgeon at the time) in from degenerative disease & arthritis since I was a teenager. Frick this nonsense.

None of us past a select few can project power overseas. I’d wager we can however vote for policies that reflect our interest toward policies overseas though, and that is a start.

 

[DaveXA]

I hear that, I really do. Arthritis is no fun, I’ve had the “lower spine of an 80 year old” (per my neurosurgeon at the time) in from degenerative disease & arthritis since I was a teenager. Frick this nonsense.

None of us past a select few can project power overseas. I’d wager we can however vote for policies that reflect our interest toward policies overseas though, and that is a start.

While I agree, not much of an option as far as voting goes. Blech.

 

[Saintman2884]

It is interesting that the war that broke out after the state of Israel was declared did not disguise that the goal was not to help the Palestinian people.

I have stated elsewhere and possibly here that I have no use for those holding power in Israel nor for Hamas or Hezbollah or any of the religionist governments.

I care only about the people.

Israel has made the same mistake that the U.S. made in Vietnam. The crushing casualties show that the Israeli government deems the lives of those in Gaza are worth far less than the lives of Israelis.

Hamas has show that every religionist government in the Middleeast is not about Islam because God has not willed their actions. They simply seek power and engage in extreme tribalism in doing so.

Fork them all.

Which is why after two decades of conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, many Americans are increasingly more willing to not even bother dealing or rationalizing with regimes or people who support those regimes in Iran, Afghanistan, Turkey, Lebanon as hopeless, irrational, medieval minded regimes who are utterly tribal and close-minded in their conception of power and influence.



We have bigger, more important issues trying to stop Russia’s advancing further into Ukraine.

 

[SamAndreas]

I hear that, I really do. Arthritis is no fun, I’ve had the “lower spine of an 80 year old” (per my neurosurgeon at the time) in from degenerative disease & arthritis since I was a teenager. Frick this nonsense.

None of us past a select few can project power overseas. I’d wager we can however vote for policies that reflect our interest toward policies overseas though, and that is a start.

Our vote is for program A, or program B, (some add on programs C, D, E, and even a Program F.) But if it's not a vote for Program A or B the vote is hardly regarded at all. It's tallied, and moments later few can remember the insignificant vote tally numbers. They never reach significance as anything but a spoiler.

Casting a spoiler vote is like shooting oneself in their foolish foot.

I won't respect anyone in the morning they do that.

 

[Heathen]

Our vote is for program A, or program B, (some add on programs C, D, E, and even a Program F.) But if it's not a vote for Program A or B the vote is hardly regarded at all. It's tallied, and moments later few can remember the insignificant vote tally numbers. They never reach significance as anything but a spoiler.

Casting a spoiler vote is like shooting oneself in their foolish foot.

I won't respect anyone in the morning they do that.

Okay.

So your statement can be summarized as to “People who support anyone other than Choices A or B are shooting themselves in the foot, and I won’t respect them”.

Is that correct?

 

[GrandAdmiral]

So both Houses have invited Bibi to address a joint session. Even ole Chuck.

 

[Heathen]

Which is why after two decades of conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, many Americans are increasingly more willing to not even bother dealing or rationalizing with regimes or people who support those regimes in Iran, Afghanistan, Turkey, Lebanon as hopeless, irrational, medieval minded regimes who are utterly tribal and close-minded in their conception of power and influence

It’s a problem of not being able to think outside of our own bubble - not being able to put energy into empathizing because US citizens are too overhelmed with trying to survive, paycheck to paycheck, as our government plays regime change across the globe.

 

[Heathen]

So both Houses have invited Bibi to address a joint session. Even ole Chuck.

So now a genocidal war criminal is meeting with our Congress like old friends for a summit while his soldiers slaughter more and more children.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

So now a genocidal war criminal is meeting with our Congress like old friends for a summit while his soldiers slaughter more and more children.

Yep... nothing to see here I guess.

 

[DaveXA]

Yep... nothing to see here I guess.

Yeah, it's the same "a deal is in the works" that never actually happens. Wake me up when an actual agreement happens and Israel pulls out of Gaza.

 

[SamAndreas]

Okay.

So your statement can be summarized as to “People who support anyone other than Choices A or B are shooting themselves in the foot, and I won’t respect them”.

Is that correct?

Yes, that's sort of correct.

I won't respect anyone who votes for that sorry Malefactor DJT, or doesn't vote for Joe Biden because they are voting for a third party spoiler, or those who stay home and do not vote because they're gruntled.

I will most certainly regard all of them as being fools who do that kind of short sighted nonsense this time around. YES.


Especially if they do it over Gaza. Trump will give all of Israel to the Israelis if he wins. He'll allow them to run the Palestinians off, or face death if they try to stay. He won't care about what you care about.

It's Trump or Biden, that is the situation. Everything else is confusing noise this time around.

 

[Heathen]

Yes, that's sort of correct.

I won't respect anyone who votes for that sorry Malefactor DJT, or doesn't vote for Joe Biden because they are voting for a third party spoiler, or those who stay home and do not vote because they're gruntled.

I will most certainly regard all of them as being fools who do that kind of short sighted nonsense this time around. YES.

That’s your opinion. You’re free to think whatever you like.

Doesn’t bother me, personally speaking.

I don’t think you are a fool for voting the way you vote. I just don’t think we see eye to eye.

Especially if they do it over Gaza. Trump will give all of Israel to the Israelis if he wins. He'll allow them to run the Palestinians off, or face death if they try to stay. He won't care about what you care about.

Not sure that you realize this, but Biden is already allowing ALL of this to happen. Every bit of what you just said - It’s happened in Gaza under Biden’s watch. What has he done once to stop any of it?

He just allows it to happen with an open checkbook and has his PR team (and we have example after sad example) act like they care. The nonsense about stopping weapons shipments then sending Billions worth for more, building a ridiculous “pier” while supplying bombs to destroy the place, telling Israel they shouldn’t go into Gaza and all this “red line” talk, then defend Israel as they pass the red line and kill kids by the hundreds.

The argument “You know Trump would be like.. so much worse” just falls flat and tone deaf when Biden has already set the bar to historical lows with how much he’s stood by and let the terrorist IDF do as they please.

It won’t work. Maybe something wise will. But that argument? No, that one’s a dud.

Back to Biden— Never liked the guy that much as he’s got a very conservative track record anyway, but would have voted for him before seeing and understanding more of who he and the party are since October. I suppose I was naive for being surprised.

All I know is that he and the party are in danger of losing to a felon this Fall, and seem to be at a literal tipping point in their level of being out of touch with the Democratic base.

It's Trump or Biden, that is the situation. Everything else is confusing noise this time around.

I believe it’s much more nuanced.

By the “blue no matter who” ad infinitum logic, Democrats have no reason not to simply move further to the right (and they have been for years, especially trying to gather Conservative voters who just can’t stomach Trump) and ignore any and all of their constituents’ needs - because we’re just shamed into voting for them anyway when we’re told other guy will always be worse.

If you see nothing wrong with that tired cycle, okay. But I feel it’s hard not to.

The Israeli led genocide is a huge issue of the largest of the Democratic party’s voting bloc. That’s just factual. But looking at what chaos and devastation the Biden administration and allies let happen in Gaza in the face, they’re smiling and telling me I’m a monster if I don’t vote for them now…

That’s supposed to be a winning strategy? I might be a darn fool, but I know a bad deal when I see one.

 

[SamAndreas]

That’s your opinion. You’re free to think whatever you like.

Doesn’t bother me, personally speaking.

I don’t think you are a fool for voting the way you vote. I just don’t think we see eye to eye.



Not sure that you realize this, but Biden is already allowing ALL of this to happen. Every bit of what you just said - It’s happened in Gaza under Biden’s watch. What has he done once to stop any of it?

He just allows it to happen with an open checkbook and has his PR team (and we have example after sad example) act like they care. The argument “You know Trump would be like.. so much worse” just falls flat and tone deaf when Biden has already set the bar to historical lows with how much he’s stood by and let the terrorist IDF do as they please.

Never liked the guy that much as he’s got a very conservative track record anyway, but would have voted for him before seeing and understanding more of who he and the party are since October. I suppose I was naive for being surprised.

All I know is that he and the party are in danger of losing to a felon this Fall, and seem to be increasingly out of touch with the Democratic base.



I believe it’s much more nuanced.

By the “blue no matter who” ad infinitum logic, Democrats have no reason not to simply move further to the right (and they have been for years, especially trying to gather Conservative voters who just can’t stomach Trump) and ignore any and all of their constituents’ needs - because we’re just shamed into voting for them anyway when we’re told other guy will always be worse.

If you see nothing wrong with that tired cycle, okay. But I feel it’s hard not to.

The Israeli led genocide is a huge issue of the largest of the Democratic party’s voting bloc. That’s just factual. But looking at what chaos and devastation the Biden administration and allies let happen in Gaza in the face, they’re smiling and telling me I’m a monster if I don’t vote for them now…

That’s supposed to be a winning strategy? I might be a darn fool, but I know a bad deal when I see one.

We clearly aren't holding a set of "facts" in common. You say negative stuff about Biden I don't believe at all. State it as facts when it actually is contrived narrative to support an impossible position.

Sorry, we can't communicate if we don't hold the most of "facts" in common, and have some kind of disconnect when it comes to spotting narrative which is trying to pretend to be "facts."

Most of what you said is narrative.

If it helps any this is my favorite monster:

 

[SamAndreas]

Serendipitous it was, just when I needed a visual to describe what I think this awful Gaza train wreck is, Nature Is Amazing posted exactly the visual I needed. A train traveling through an awful thunderstorm at night, along something which could be best described as distorted tunnel vision at best.

Take this moving as visual metaphor to suage this delima:



The narrow two straight shiny steel lines going forward through the strobe effect darkness represent a metaphoric view which has been artificially created through selectively removing this issue from it's embedded context, taking the cavaliere view that context doesn't matter.

Context matters here because in this case context regulates the relative value of the "facts" of the matter. This visualization shows the dark scary tunnel vision peril of setting relevant context for this kind of issue aside. A good thing they are not going very fast.

The peril of one issue politics, where that one issue jeopardized the rest of the issues you may care about while vital context is being selectively ignored.