Israel vs Hamas (2 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[bird]

This is in the US. Why was only one police officer helping her?




https://apnews.com/article/itamar-bengvir-brooklyn-mob-woman-chased-090da170e8800307c54e2520320f6a2c

Humans are disgusting. Nietzche had it right. When you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back.

The veneer of so-called civilization is very thin.

 

[Heathen]

This is in the US. Why was only one police officer helping her?




https://apnews.com/article/itamar-bengvir-brooklyn-mob-woman-chased-090da170e8800307c54e2520320f6a2c

Imagine the headlines if it were the other way around. I mean, I think we all can. Trump would have already tried to deport most of them.

 

[Heathen]

In this week’s edition of the most obvious news in the world:

Israel cabinet approves plan to 'capture' Gaza - official

The Israeli military has called up tens of thousands of reservists, saying it is aiming to increase pressure on Hamas.

www.bbc.com

 

[UriUT]

The root cause, along with misogyny, racism, and xenophobia is American privilege and arrogance. These people couldn't recognize that the people most willing to help how they can were not the enemy. The only force holding back that fascist regime over there were in these people's eyes, the real enemy. fork that. Kamala was adamant that she was for the two state solution. Biden for his part regret not having enough influence over those fascists. These asshats can't even admit their part in ushering in gaza's demise. The privilege of idealism. Biden allowed their protected rights to protest and drag his name through the mud. He may be friendlier to israel than most would like including myself, but what would anyone expect him to do considering that climate after a terrorist attack? Hell we had liberals and progressives standing up for Israel's right to defend itself...and that is fair...as is pointing out that Palestinians too have a right to defend and react to Israel's fascism.

fork all that now. I'll care when these asshats admit their part. Our house is burning in part because of these asshats. I ask, where are these asshats now? Where are the protest at trump rallies if they are happy to stand on moral grounds? The only protest at a town hall since trump took office? You've guessed it. At a democratic representative town hall.

The privilege to spite your face so that you can look high and mighty. An idiot could see what would happen to both ukraine and the Palestinians if trump wins...and we are witness to it all now. It's the same with those Cubans for Trump. Argentinians. Use your god damn head and maybe something good gets done.

 

[Heathen]

The root cause, along with misogyny, racism, and xenophobia is American privilege and arrogance. These people couldn't recognize that the people most willing to help how they can were not the enemy. The only force holding back that fascist regime over there were in these people's eyes, the real enemy. fork that. Kamala was adamant that she was for the two state solution. Biden for his part regret not having enough influence over those fascists. These asshats can't even admit their part in ushering in gaza's demise. The privilege of idealism. Biden allowed their protected rights to protest and drag his name through the mud. He may be friendlier to israel than most would like including myself, but what would anyone expect him to do considering that climate after a terrorist attack? Hell we had liberals and progressives standing up for Israel's right to defend itself...and that is fair...as is pointing out that Palestinians too have a right to defend and react to Israel's fascism.

fork all that now. I'll care when these asshats admit their part. Our house is burning in part because of these asshats. I ask, where are these asshats now? Where are the protest at trump rallies if they are happy to stand on moral grounds? The only protest at a town hall since trump took office? You've guessed it. At a democratic representative town hall.

The privilege to spite your face so that you can look high and mighty. An idiot could see what would happen to both ukraine and the Palestinians if trump wins...and we are witness to it all now. It's the same with those Cubans for Trump. Argentinians. Use your god damn head and maybe something good gets done.

Yes, this is what is truly important as a genocide occurs.

Bringing up a bloc of voters that we don’t know 100% statistically wouldn’t have helped Harris win in an election in the past even if they had voted Harris is a waste of time.

Some of you need to realize that not everything is about team blue vs red. It’s not about your “side” winning above all. It should be more about core issues and shared values than sides.

Some of this, believe it or not, is just the way the empire works. And it’s disgusting.

Hundreds of thousands of Children are being purposefully starved in Gaza as a result of US support as we speak.. after tens of thousands of other children have been slaughtered by the war criminals of the IDF.

THAT is what is important right now.

 

[bird]

Yes, this is what is truly important as a genocide occurs.

Bringing up a bloc of voters that we don’t know 100% statistically wouldn’t have helped Harris win in an election in the past even if they had voted Harris is a waste of time.

Some of you need to realize that not everything is about team blue vs red. It’s not about your “side” winning above all. It should be more about core issues and shared values than sides.

Some of this, believe it or not, is just the way the empire works. And it’s disgusting.

Hundreds of thousands of Children are being purposefully starved in Gaza as a result of US support as we speak.. after tens of thousands of other children have been slaughtered by the war criminals of the IDF.

THAT is what is important right now.

I am reading Andrew Bacevich’s book After The Apocalypse. In it he talks about the changed world that occurred because of a host of things including particularly CoVid. One topic is the idea of the “special relationship” which is basically what exists between the U.S. and the UK as well as the U.S. and Israel.

Basically, he says the relationship must change. In the case of Israel unconditional support must stop. That unconditional support has been abused by Israel. Israel is strong enough to defend itself. They do not need any arbitrary help in doing that.

The only way the to deal with Israel is to deal with them in the same manner as we do with, say, Spain or Ireland. We do not need to ignore them but the reality is that they are one country among many in the world.

Stop all weapons shipments now.

 

[UriUT]

Yes, this is what is truly important as a genocide occurs.

Bringing up a bloc of voters that we don’t know 100% statistically wouldn’t have helped Harris win in an election in the past even if they had voted Harris is a waste of time.

Some of you need to realize that not everything is about team blue vs red. It’s not about your “side” winning above all. It should be more about core issues and shared values than sides.

Some of this, believe it or not, is just the way the empire works. And it’s disgusting.

Hundreds of thousands of Children are being purposefully starved in Gaza as a result of US support as we speak.. after tens of thousands of other children have been slaughtered by the war criminals of the IDF.

THAT is what is important right now.

Get out of here with this bs. This isn't remotely about team blue or team red. Don't you dare try to brow beat us. If you cannot distinguish between Trump and Harris you are the problem. No. This isn't about red or blue. It's about how much can be helped. And at this point nothing. Don't blame the people who warned you what trump and Netanyahu are. The people who can be swayed are sitting on the sidelines watching helplessly. Now tell me. Biden was harassed daily. Where's the same conviction today? Where are the protests? Go to those trump nazi rallies and protest. Go protest a representative that is part of the majority. Prove to us that you care. Because what I'm seeing is this same bs self indulgence and hypocrisy of actually caring what happens to the palestinians. Most of us are fully aware of what is happening there. I'm fully aware of the canyon shift in Israeli sentiments against a 2 state solution. I'm fully aware for more than a decade now how cruel israel can be. Yet, nothing can be done because in part like hispanic votes...

In Dearborn, the country’s largest Arab-majority city, election data showed that Trump won 42 percent of the vote while Harris received 36 percent—significantly less than the 69 percent that Biden earned in 2020.

Yes like I've said before. The privilege of voting like a fool and having zero repercussions like what Palestinians are facing. They won't feel the hunger of those gazans. Neither will those protesters. And yet, no regrets.

 

[Heathen]

Get out of here with this bs. This isn't remotely about team blue or team red. Don't you dare try to brow beat us. If you cannot distinguish between Trump and Harris you are the problem.

One problem to me is with folks who are still trying to beat their fellow party members over the head for refusing to vote for a candidate actively enabling the Israelis to slaughter children.

It’s incredible that we are ALL still not condemning those who allowed this to happen and are still allowing a modern day Holocaust to happen.

That’s what I was getting at with the “team” comment. If you can’t admit the Democrats abhorrent complicity in likely the most egregious global human rights atrocities in many of our lifetimes, we have nothing left to discuss. We can be honest in our discourse and admit that Biden / Harris were guilty in this sense AND 1000X better than Trump in other ways.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time, can we not?

Trump is worse. Literally no sane person is saying the opposite. But that’s a stupid argument when the bar was set at genocide.

And that is the point. I’m hoping truly that this is making sense even if you do not agree.

 

[Dragon]

One problem to me is with folks who are still trying to beat their fellow party members over the head for refusing to vote for a candidate actively enabling the Israelis to slaughter children.

It’s incredible that we are ALL still not condemning those who allowed this to happen and are still allowing a modern day Holocaust to happen.

That’s what I was getting at with the “team” comment. If you can’t admit the Democrats abhorrent complicity in likely the most egregious global human rights atrocities in many of our lifetimes, we have nothing left to discuss. We can be honest in our discourse and admit that Biden / Harris were guilty in this sense AND 1000X better than Trump in other ways.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time, can we not?

Trump is worse. Literally no sane person is saying the opposite. But that’s a stupid argument when the bar was set at genocide.

And that is the point. I’m hoping truly that this is making sense even if you do not agree.

They abstained or voted against the only candidate who openly stated that the only viable solution was a 2 state solution and enabled a candidate who equally openly stated that the Gazan's should be removed from Gaza. Those two facts should make it clear for everyone what was at stake.

But I guess the fact that she was a woman also counted against her in a predominately masculine culture.

 

[UriUT]

The problem is with folks like you who are still trying to beat your fellow party members over the head for refusing to vote for a candidate actively enabling the Israelis to slaughter children.

You have no moral high ground here.

I’m happy to discuss this with you, but don’t you dare tell anyone to “get out” under this pretext.

If we want to talk about “privilege”, let’s start with how you’re using yours first since you brought this up.

I’m just going to get this out of the way first…I used the rhetorical you. I have no idea how you voted, and I won’t force you to reveal it. The you is to those protesters and his voters who fell victim to trump’s lies and refused to admit regret. Therefore, when I first brought it up, it was to criticize them.

Now let’s parse this. You again are trying to make this a red/blue issue when I distinctly said it’s not. I’ve brought this up with you before about idealism going amuck, and apparently you are still at it. For all the faults that Biden and Harris have, they are willing to help the Gazans and Palestinians despite being limited by the political reality here. There was a cease fire pushed by Biden, but apparently trump convinced Netanyahu to delay it. I mean, seriously, are you blind to all of this? You keep pushing this narrative that both are the same when the evidence tells you it’s not. This trump admin is coercing the un right now on its Gaza’s plan. Do you honestly think the Harris group would do that? You keep harping on the deaths and genocide, but don’t want people who can help to slow it down or stop it completely in power because they are not pure enough. What kind of moral bullshirt is that.

And I notice you aren’t addressing any of that hypocritical protest? I mean, I’m not at all angered by the protests. I didn’t think they were effective means to begin with. But the hypocrisy that bugs me is, that it was targeted against one party only. Even after the election, the protest is against an dem who has no power to stop this genocide. And much worse, after Harris loses, these same people went on interviews to beg Biden to do something. After they cut off his legs? Is that fair? And the cherry on top, they don’t have any regrets to their part. Any comically still, these high morals are not doing the same thing they were doing under Biden. Where is the consistency if they are so moral. So I have to ask, is this for them or for the Gazans.

Yeah, so I won’t be guilted. I voted the way I voted. I know I don’t stand on any higher ground than the next person. But I certainly will not be guilted by anyone who cannot accept some relief no matter how tiny over destruction of Gaza. Especially when they played a part to bringing trump and his catastrophe to the Gazans and showed zero remorse. As a matter of fact, these people vow to attack dems more? Um…the dems are the ones willing to help. If you would, find the recent pew poll on Israel. Dems favors Israel dramatically less than republicans. And, practically every congressional republican favors Israel. What’s laughable here is that nearly half of congressional dems voted to undo biden’s arm delay to Israel, and you think Biden could unilaterally balk their interest in a contentious election. Yeah, be real. To you, the coincidence that dems empathize with the Palestinians more and I’m calling out the hypocritical attacks against them is a red and blue issue. Ok…

As I told you before, small help is better than nothing. And as of now, trump won’t even give “nothing” help. He’s giving Israel power to destroy Gaza.

 

[DaveXA]

I’m just going to get this out of the way first…I used the rhetorical you. I have no idea how you voted, and I won’t force you to reveal it. The you is to those protesters and his voters who fell victim to trump’s lies and refused to admit regret. Therefore, when I first brought it up, it was to criticize them.

Now let’s parse this. You again are trying to make this a red/blue issue when I distinctly said it’s not. I’ve brought this up with you before about idealism going amuck, and apparently you are still at it. For all the faults that Biden and Harris have, they are willing to help the Gazans and Palestinians despite being limited by the political reality here. There was a cease fire pushed by Biden, but apparently trump convinced Netanyahu to delay it. I mean, seriously, are you blind to all of this? You keep pushing this narrative that both are the same when the evidence tells you it’s not. This trump admin is coercing the un right now on its Gaza’s plan. Do you honestly think the Harris group would do that? You keep harping on the deaths and genocide, but don’t want people who can help to slow it down or stop it completely in power because they are not pure enough. What kind of moral bullshirt is that.

And I notice you aren’t addressing any of that hypocritical protest? I mean, I’m not at all angered by the protests. I didn’t think they were effective means to begin with. But the hypocrisy that bugs me is, that it was targeted against one party only. Even after the election, the protest is against an dem who has no power to stop this genocide. And much worse, after Harris loses, these same people went on interviews to beg Biden to do something. After they cut off his legs? Is that fair? And the cherry on top, they don’t have any regrets to their part. Any comically still, these high morals are not doing the same thing they were doing under Biden. Where is the consistency if they are so moral. So I have to ask, is this for them or for the Gazans.

Yeah, so I won’t be guilted. I voted the way I voted. I know I don’t stand on any higher ground than the next person. But I certainly will not be guilted by anyone who cannot accept some relief no matter how tiny over destruction of Gaza. Especially when they played a part to bringing trump and his catastrophe to the Gazans and showed zero remorse. As a matter of fact, these people vow to attack dems more? Um…the dems are the ones willing to help. If you would, find the recent pew poll on Israel. Dems favors Israel dramatically less than republicans. And, practically every congressional republican favors Israel. What’s laughable here is that nearly half of congressional dems voted to undo biden’s arm delay to Israel, and you think Biden could unilaterally balk their interest in a contentious election. Yeah, be real. To you, the coincidence that dems empathize with the Palestinians more and I’m calling out the hypocritical attacks against them is a red and blue issue. Ok…

As I told you before, small help is better than nothing. And as of now, trump won’t even give “nothing” help. He’s giving Israel power to destroy Gaza.

Yeah, it's that whole don't let the perfect get in the way of the good thing.

 

[Incumbent]

I’m just going to get this out of the way first…I used the rhetorical you. I have no idea how you voted, and I won’t force you to reveal it. The you is to those protesters and his voters who fell victim to trump’s lies and refused to admit regret. Therefore, when I first brought it up, it was to criticize them.

Now let’s parse this. You again are trying to make this a red/blue issue when I distinctly said it’s not. I’ve brought this up with you before about idealism going amuck, and apparently you are still at it. For all the faults that Biden and Harris have, they are willing to help the Gazans and Palestinians despite being limited by the political reality here. There was a cease fire pushed by Biden, but apparently trump convinced Netanyahu to delay it. I mean, seriously, are you blind to all of this? You keep pushing this narrative that both are the same when the evidence tells you it’s not. This trump admin is coercing the un right now on its Gaza’s plan. Do you honestly think the Harris group would do that? You keep harping on the deaths and genocide, but don’t want people who can help to slow it down or stop it completely in power because they are not pure enough. What kind of moral bullshirt is that.

And I notice you aren’t addressing any of that hypocritical protest? I mean, I’m not at all angered by the protests. I didn’t think they were effective means to begin with. But the hypocrisy that bugs me is, that it was targeted against one party only. Even after the election, the protest is against an dem who has no power to stop this genocide. And much worse, after Harris loses, these same people went on interviews to beg Biden to do something. After they cut off his legs? Is that fair? And the cherry on top, they don’t have any regrets to their part. Any comically still, these high morals are not doing the same thing they were doing under Biden. Where is the consistency if they are so moral. So I have to ask, is this for them or for the Gazans.

Yeah, so I won’t be guilted. I voted the way I voted. I know I don’t stand on any higher ground than the next person. But I certainly will not be guilted by anyone who cannot accept some relief no matter how tiny over destruction of Gaza. Especially when they played a part to bringing trump and his catastrophe to the Gazans and showed zero remorse. As a matter of fact, these people vow to attack dems more? Um…the dems are the ones willing to help. If you would, find the recent pew poll on Israel. Dems favors Israel dramatically less than republicans. And, practically every congressional republican favors Israel. What’s laughable here is that nearly half of congressional dems voted to undo biden’s arm delay to Israel, and you think Biden could unilaterally balk their interest in a contentious election. Yeah, be real. To you, the coincidence that dems empathize with the Palestinians more and I’m calling out the hypocritical attacks against them is a red and blue issue. Ok…

As I told you before, small help is better than nothing. And as of now, trump won’t even give “nothing” help. He’s giving Israel power to destroy Gaza.

All of this...and then the undeniable fact that so much more was at stake.

There is a faction of the Left that will always find a reason to not support the Democratic candidate. That is certainly their prerogative, but this notion that there is no real difference between the two parties is simply untrue. I often wish for better candidates but the time to work to make that possible is in between elections. Once the ballot is set, I will pick the candidate most in line with what is important to me and hope to keep working towards progress on whatever fronts we can.

Now? We're indefinitely screwed. People can blame whomever they want. I'm middle aged and don't expect to see the U.S. recover lost ground in my lifetime. So not only is Gaza doomed, circumstances are far worse in the United States, and increasingly so around the world. The worst people won. We are ruled by oligarchs in a kleptocracy, where corruption is unbridled and brazen. Trump and Republicans are dismantling our government and guardrails, allowing unprecedented access to government systems and our data by private citizens, violating human rights and ignoring due process, and continuously working to undermine our elections in every way they can, to solidify their grasp on power.

 

[UriUT]

Yeah, it's that whole don't let the perfect get in the way of the good thing.

First, i was mistaken about the number of dems that voted to force biden to unpause military aid to israel....it was only 16 that crossed.

Still, that is just one example of Biden trying to enforce his will on israel to reduce Palestinian casualties. But it's not like netanyahu didn't oppose him at every turn. When the un vote to condemn israel circulated, israel threatened the us that they would withhold all tax revenue from the pa and may even disband them completely. That would leave the Palestinians without an opposing force against hamas and a more moderate entity that can negotiate peace with israel. Biden tried to established that failed floating dock. He negotiated open corridors as best he can against Israeli aggression. This is all to say, Biden despite what appears to be favoritism to the state of Israel did work to minimize Palestinian damage unlike Trump.

And I do get why Biden was viewed unfavorable by Arab Americans. He was at the helm. But that view gets thrown immediately out because the same venom isn't placed on trump now for similar cruelty by israel.

So yeah, biden isn't perfect. But he's a saint compared to trump.

 

[Heathen]

For all the faults that Biden and Harris have, they are willing to help the Gazans and Palestinians despite being limited by the political reality here.

Statements like this make me deeply question how well you actually understand the conflict or the nuance therein.

First and most obvious point - if they REALLY wanted to "help" the Palestinians as you claim, they would have. They could have done a number of things to ensure that this conflict didn't spin out of control once the IDF started slaughtering civilians left and right, even in the first couple of months.

Like what? Like send troops. Like cut off funding or drastically reduce it. Like encourage other nations to do the same. What, suddenly the United States is helpless when Israel is making the demands?

It's absolute nonsense.

And then there are the "bullshirt" lies repeated by the US for Israel. Remember when Biden repeated a LIE that there were 'beheaded babies' that Hamas had butchered? You mean to tell me he just made a 'mistake'? When, in actuality, it was Israel far and away that beheaded the most babies -- there are pictures everywhere. There are Israeli soldiers bragging about doing it. Any mention about that from the "willing to help" Biden adminstration?

Nope. All silence on the western front. Let's not pretend we don't know why.

The United States under Biden consistently, without fail wagged their finger and acted like they cared for the PR cameos -- but was SILENT when line after line after line after line was crossed by Israel. Remember the 'red line' of Rafah? If you don't - here's the short: Biden declared in March of 2024 that an IDF invasion of Rafah would be a "red line" and he would not supply certain weapons like bombs or shells nor allow an obvious mass displacement of people without adequate provisions due to crossing said line. Now, what did Israel do? In early May of 2024, a siege of Rafah occurred. The Israeli army entered with tanks and slaughtered Palestinians at will - on May 26th they slaughtered 45+ people including women and children in a camp for displaced people -- on May 28th they killed another 20+. From this siege and other attempts in the area, ONE MILLION Palestinians were forced to evacuate Rafah without food, water, or shelter that the US had deemed necessary.

And what did the US do?

Not a damned thing.

It's almost like a theme, isn't it?

There was a cease fire pushed by Biden, but apparently trump convinced Netanyahu to delay it.

Would you be kind enough to share your sources on this?

I mean, seriously, are you blind to all of this? You keep pushing this narrative that both are the same when the evidence tells you it’s not.

Do you think that there's a possibility that you simply don't want to accept for partisan reasons -- that US foreign policy decisions regardless of party are and historically have been abhorrently inhumane and littered with war crimes?

Have you already forgotten the Iraq War? Afghanistan?

This trump admin is coercing the un right now on its Gaza’s plan. Do you honestly think the Harris group would do that?

Actions speak louder than words.

Acting like enabling the slaughter of hundreds of thousands is better than enabling the slaughter of hundreds of thousands is illogical.

You keep harping on the deaths and genocide,

Yes, and YOU should be harping on deaths and genocide too, because it affects YOU.

Do you seriously think that if push came to shove, certain governments wouldn't do the same to people it deemed 'less than'?

This affects ALL of us. The preservation and dignity of human life above all being cherished and protected is being made into a spectacle and a joke by Israeli army terrorists who parade around in the dresses of the children they've decapitated, riding their toy horses, having tea in the homes of innocent people they've killed....all while Americans - too short sighted and distracted and stressed to want to engage, stream netflix or concern themselves with buying more shirte or about who wins some stupid sports game.

My goodness man...the time to be concerned about deaths and genocide should have been when someone mentioned they were happening.

but don’t want people who can help to slow it down or stop it completely in power because they are not pure enough. What kind of moral bullshirt is that.

You're wrong once more.

I do want anyone who can help slow down the genocide in Gaza and terrorism that the Israelis are inflicting upon Palestinians across the West Bank and other places.

Your issue seems to be that you'd rather defend those enabling genocide so that you can feel better about your party than actually condemn genocide across the board and anyone who participates in said enablement.

And I notice you aren’t addressing any of that hypocritical protest? I mean, I’m not at all angered by the protests. I didn’t think they were effective means to begin with. But the hypocrisy that bugs me is, that it was targeted against one party only. Even after the election, the protest is against an dem who has no power to stop this genocide. And much worse, after Harris loses, these same people went on interviews to beg Biden to do something.

Why are you so worried about "one party only"?

Do you not see the protests by the hundreds of thousands happening now condemning the US of their role in genocide?

You keep repeating the notion that Biden couldn't do anything. What evidence do you have for that?

And better yet -- instead of thinking that the world's most powerful military by a longshot suddenly "can't do anything" when it comes to Israel, maybe you can admit there's a chance that the US simply chose to maintain regional geopolitical power, regardless of how many hundreds of thousands of people were purposefully slaughtered?

I'll ask you once more - do you NOT remember Iraq and Afghanistan?

Yeah, so I won’t be guilted. I voted the way I voted. I know I don’t stand on any higher ground than the next person. But I certainly will not be guilted by anyone who cannot accept some relief no matter how tiny over destruction of Gaza.

Everyone's being guilted. Liberals guilt progressives over 'enabling Trump' all day and twice on Tuesday. Kind of like you did with your original quote.

I'm going to call you out on your "relief" comment. Once more, as I think the narrative you're pushing is illogical:

What evidence do you have that a Harris administration (or Biden) would have been this palpable "relief" as you say vs. Trump - what IS that relief and why is it better, when the bar (set by the Biden administration) is set at the majority of Gaza being destroyed and potentially 100,000+ already slaughtered?

I think that you have a very poor argument in that regard, but I'm open to seeing why I'm wrong.

 

[Heathen]

So yeah, biden isn't perfect. But he's a saint compared to trump.

With regard to American politics and issues that impact Americans on American soil? Absolutely.


But you should know this is an absolutely ludicrous statement if talking about Palestine.

 

[Heathen]

All of this...and then the undeniable fact that so much more was at stake.

There is a faction of the Left that will always find a reason to not support the Democratic candidate

There will always be in politics members of a party (loosely) that will chastise everything about it or not vote out of spite. But let's be real - that number is pretty small.

You'll find that if you actually look at the data, most "leftists, progressives, etc" supported the de facto Democratic candidate by a when it came down to election day.

. That is certainly their prerogative, but this notion that there is no real difference between the two parties is simply untrue.

I don't think that anyone here is arguing that point.

A point many WOULD argue is that on THIS issue (and many foreign policy related issues) there isn't much difference, yes.

Happy to understand why I'm wrong there. I don't understand in any galaxy how it could be argued in relation to Gaza.

Anyone arguing "genocide" is much more ethical a choice vs "genocide and accelerated taking over of the land" without vociferously attacking both actions are what I cannot take seriously.

Now? We're indefinitely screwed. People can blame whomever they want. I'm middle aged and don't expect to see the U.S. recover lost ground in my lifetime. So not only is Gaza doomed, circumstances are far worse in the United States, and increasingly so around the world. The worst people won. We are ruled by oligarchs in a kleptocracy, where corruption is unbridled and brazen. Trump and Republicans are dismantling our government and guardrails, allowing unprecedented access to government systems and our data by private citizens, violating human rights and ignoring due process, and continuously working to undermine our elections in every way they can, to solidify their grasp on power.

The United States is an amazing place. I love it with all my heart.

But it's also built, quite literally, on the oppression and genocide of other people. So it surprises me when people (not you, just saying generally) are so resistant to the idea that the US would participate in it now, or that both parties with a long history of participating in it wouldn't do the same today.

The people of the United States don't want their government slaughtering people around the world by the hundreds of thousands for geopolitical control and power.

My guess is that they'll learn that one way or the other.

 

[Heathen]

Yeah, it's that whole don't let the perfect get in the way of the good thing.

In this case "good" is genocide, and one huge ethical conundrum is that people (usually self proclaimed moderate or conservative liberals) are not condemning it or get visibly angry with leftists when they mention it.

That's a problem everyone should be talking about.

 

[Dragon]

In this case "good" is genocide, and one huge ethical conundrum is that people (usually self proclaimed moderate or conservative liberals) are not condemning it or get visibly angry with leftists when they mention it.

That's a problem everyone should be talking about.

As I have said multiple times before. In order to achieve peace there need to be 3 to tango and Bibi had no reason to agree to any kind of deals when he knew he would get it all if Trump was elected. Trump was in open communication with Bibi even before being elected again and Bibi did everything to obstruct any kind of solution.

Also - Kamala was NOT president, and were not the one responsible for setting policy. AND she repeatedly stated that a 2 state solution was the only viable way to peace.

So stop blaming the democrats and especially Kamala. The US palestinians chose to support a man who openly promoted genocide and forcibel removal of their own people from Gaza.